So, the fact that Rend damage isn't considered precision damage is what separates it from Sneak Attack with regards to Power Attack? That would mean that Rending Claws doesn't get bonus Power Attack damage, even though Rend does.
Oooh...I just realised under this interpretation, a Vicious weapon gets double the damage bonus from Power Attack. Sweet!
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So, the fact that Rend damage isn't considered precision damage is what separates it from Sneak Attack with regards to Power Attack? That would mean that Rending Claws doesn't get bonus Power Attack damage, even though Rend does.Oooh...I just realised under this interpretation, a Vicious weapon gets double the damage bonus from Power Attack. Sweet!
Incorrect...Rend is a seperate attack that triggers when the first two hit, vicious is the same attack, such as fiery, sonic, etc.
Incorrect...Rend is a seperate attack that triggers when the first two hit, vicious is the same attack, such as fiery, sonic, etc.So, the fact that Rend damage isn't considered precision damage is what separates it from Sneak Attack with regards to Power Attack? That would mean that Rending Claws doesn't get bonus Power Attack damage, even though Rend does.Oooh...I just realised under this interpretation, a Vicious weapon gets double the damage bonus from Power Attack. Sweet!
[citation needed]
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I concur with Hogarth's general point. Applying Power Attack damage to rend because it applies to all melee damage rolls starts down a slippery slope as to what is or isn't a "melee damage roll."[citation needed]Incorrect...Rend is a seperate attack that triggers when the first two hit, vicious is the same attack, such as fiery, sonic, etc.So, the fact that Rend damage isn't considered precision damage is what separates it from Sneak Attack with regards to Power Attack? That would mean that Rending Claws doesn't get bonus Power Attack damage, even though Rend does.Oooh...I just realised under this interpretation, a Vicious weapon gets double the damage bonus from Power Attack. Sweet!
Not really.
There is a difference between extra damage dice (e.g. Sneak Attack, Flaming, Holy, Bane, Vicious) and a special attack.
Rend is a special attack and is different than extra damage dice.
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[citation needed]Incorrect...Rend is a seperate attack that triggers when the first two hit, vicious is the same attack, such as fiery, sonic, etc.So, the fact that Rend damage isn't considered precision damage is what separates it from Sneak Attack with regards to Power Attack? That would mean that Rending Claws doesn't get bonus Power Attack damage, even though Rend does.Oooh...I just realised under this interpretation, a Vicious weapon gets double the damage bonus from Power Attack. Sweet!
Why do you need a citation? Its written within the abilities. One is a special attack and one is extra damage dice.
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He needs citation because adding Power Attack damage on Rend seems like GM cheese as it does to me.
An special attack which doesn't even have attack bonus in it. Like it hasn't killed enough players already.
Well there are plenty of citations noted above. Regurgitating the same citations wouldn't do any good.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Damage is rolled once per attack.
If it's a longsword attack, the roll is 1d8, to which you add other modifiers, like Strength bonus, Weapon Specialization, and enhancement bonuses.
If it's a short sword with sneak attack, the damage roll is 1d6+1d6 sneak attack. It's two dice, but it's a single damage roll.
If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire.
A full attack, you add Power Attack once to each attack that hits, even if each of those attacks also has other effects added to its final damage value.
The rend universal monster rule grants the creature an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks. Since it's a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two, it gets Power Attack as well.
Thus, a GM applying Power Attack to a rend damage roll is operating completely within the rules.
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This.Yes, the only differences between rend and a normal attack is that rend is an autohit if you hit with X number of claws, otherwise its an auto miss, it cannot critical (as you never roll to hit).
DR, penalties to damage apply just as power attack would apply to its bonus
To the contrary (thanks to the helpful annotations at the SRD):
James Jacobs (Creative Director) Jan 3, 2010, 02:56 PM FLAG | LIST | FAQ | REPLY
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Rend adds damage to an attack; it's not an attack in and of itself. Just as power attack won't increase sneak attack damage or constrict damage, it won't increase rend damage (although it DOES increase the damage inflicted by the attacks that are necessary to trigger rend in the first place). Rake attacks ARE attacks, so power attack applies there.
Rend kills enough PCs anyway. There's no need to increase its damage, for the same reason there's no reason to tie a machine gun onto a nuclear bomb!
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I can't find it now but I swear there's also a post somewhere from James saying that DR doesn't apply to Two-Weapon Rend (specifically).
Add in the fact that the "rend" monster ability, the "rend" summoner evolution, and the "rending claws" feat all have slightly different text and it's no wonder people get confused.
(The big difference being that some say "you may only apply this damage once to a target in a round" while others say "you may only apply this damage once per round" leaving the question of what happens if you have enough claws to rend multiple opponents in a big whirly mess.)
If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire.
Shouldn't that be 3d12+3xStrength+3xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire? Is there a rule that PA is only doubled on a crit with a x3 weapon (that I've missed), or was that a typo?
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Shouldn't that be 3d12+3xStrength+3xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire? Is there a rule that PA is only doubled on a crit with a x3 weapon (that I've missed), or was that a typo?
If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire.
(3d12)+(str*1.5*3)+(3*Power attack)+(1d6 sneak)+(1d6 fire) would be the proper syntax
1 handed PA is -1 hit +2 Damage Per BAB4
2 handed PA is -1 Hit +3 damage Per BAB4 (greataxe falls here as an X3 weapon)
and no .. PA creates Bonus damage - which is multiplied by the weapons Crit Mod
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(Part two was even worse and the only reason it wasn't a TPK was some selfish jerk decided that he didn't deserve to die and plane shifted himself and whoever he could reach away.)
Why someone is a "selfish jerk" for saving at least some of the party members?
I could comprehend the bitterness if he has feed away alone, but he transported away the people he could save (or their bodies) so what is seems simply the most logical behaviour in the face of a imminent TPK.
(3d12)+(str*1.5*3)+(3*Power attack)+(1d6 sneak)+(1d6 fire) would be the proper syntax
Yep, that's what I meant - I wasn't very clear. I was just flagging up that Mark said 2xPA, and that made me wonder if I'd misinterpreted something.
Roll on PF 2 when paizo have enough cash to create the game they wish, rather than just adapting one
as its in this thread was it decided that Displacement stops SA
This Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally to me means you know what square the target is in, where proper TC (ie invisible) you dont...and rend we play as the fixed damage stated, like trample, constrict, swallow etc damage
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(Part two was even worse and the only reason it wasn't a TPK was some selfish jerk decided that he didn't deserve to die and plane shifted himself and whoever he could reach away.)Why someone is a "selfish jerk" for saving at least some of the party members?
I could comprehend the bitterness if he has feed away alone, but he transported away the people he could save (or their bodies) so what is seems simply the most logical behaviour in the face of a imminent TPK.
Sorry, self-referential joke there. I was the "selfish jerk." It absolutely sucked that I had to leave two people behind and I still feel bad about it.
Side note about "in character" play.
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Shouldn't that be 3d12+3xStrength+3xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire? Is there a rule that PA is only doubled on a crit with a x3 weapon (that I've missed), or was that a typo?
If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire.
(3d12)+(str*1.5*3)+(3*Power attack)+(1d6 sneak)+(1d6 fire) would be the proper syntax
1 handed PA is -1 hit +2 Damage Per BAB4
2 handed PA is -1 Hit +3 damage Per BAB4 (greataxe falls here as an X3 weapon)and no .. PA creates Bonus damage - which is multiplied by the weapons Crit Mod
Actually if the Strength is 1.5, so is the Power Attack, but you add the power attack before multiplying by 1.5. So it would look like.
(3d12) + ((STR + Power Attack)*1.5*3) + (1d6 sneak attack) + (1d6 fire)
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This.Yes, the only differences between rend and a normal attack is that rend is an autohit if you hit with X number of claws, otherwise its an auto miss, it cannot critical (as you never roll to hit).
DR, penalties to damage apply just as power attack would apply to its bonus
To the contrary (thanks to the helpful annotations at the SRD):
James Jacobs (Creative Director) Jan 3, 2010, 02:56 PM FLAG | LIST | FAQ | REPLY
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Rend adds damage to an attack; it's not an attack in and of itself. Just as power attack won't increase sneak attack damage or constrict damage, it won't increase rend damage (although it DOES increase the damage inflicted by the attacks that are necessary to trigger rend in the first place). Rake attacks ARE attacks, so power attack applies there.Rend kills enough PCs anyway. There's no need to increase its damage, for the same reason there's no reason to tie a machine gun onto a nuclear bomb!
Ok, except that the cited post has to be read in the context that JJ has stated explicitly that he is not binding authority on rules. His opinions are extremely well informed by experience, but are only opinions. On the other hand, Mark Moreland's post that just went up (1) is consistent with the RAW, and (2) is binding.
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Ok, except that the cited post has to be read in the context that JJ has stated explicitly that he is not binding authority on rules. His opinions are extremely well informed by experience, but are only opinions. On the other hand, Mark Moreland's post that just went up (1) is consistent with the RAW, and (2) is binding.This.Yes, the only differences between rend and a normal attack is that rend is an autohit if you hit with X number of claws, otherwise its an auto miss, it cannot critical (as you never roll to hit).
DR, penalties to damage apply just as power attack would apply to its bonus
To the contrary (thanks to the helpful annotations at the SRD):
James Jacobs (Creative Director) Jan 3, 2010, 02:56 PM FLAG | LIST | FAQ | REPLY
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Rend adds damage to an attack; it's not an attack in and of itself. Just as power attack won't increase sneak attack damage or constrict damage, it won't increase rend damage (although it DOES increase the damage inflicted by the attacks that are necessary to trigger rend in the first place). Rake attacks ARE attacks, so power attack applies there.Rend kills enough PCs anyway. There's no need to increase its damage, for the same reason there's no reason to tie a machine gun onto a nuclear bomb!
This
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I'll let Mike address any outstanding questions about how players should handle disputes after the conclusion of a scenario, but I did want to clarify the use of the Power Attack feat with a rend attack.
Power Attack grants a bonus on "all melee damage rolls," which includes the melee damage rolled as part of a rend attack. Since it also states that the bonus to damage is increased by half when using "a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls," such would also apply as long as the rend damage listed in the creature's statblock dealt 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier, which is most often the case but isn't a requirement. The feat interacts with attack rolls and damage rolls separately, so it doesn't matter whether melee damage is rolled as part of an attack or a special attack; the difference between the two might have an impact on whether or not the creature takes a penalty on the attack, however.
the only problem I have here is rend is not a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your strength on damage rolls. its a special attack with a primary natural weapon (claws which are not 1-1/2 str) So at the very least shouldn't you be getting the lesser power attack number?
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Played a mod this past weekend, was killed during it. Got home from the convention and reviewed the scenario... Monster that killed me hit me 5 times in one round one of which was a critical hit for a total of 147 points of damage. After reviewing the stat block I noticed that something was off, as 147 was the maximum damage the monster could have done rolling max on all attacks (including max rend and assuming power attack which did not happen.
Is it possible for anything to be done after the fact? I assume it was just a judge accidental mathematical error. I had no reason to suspect foul play during the scenario so why would I question it at the table?
What creature was this? (so we can look it up) What level were you? Race/Class? What is your AC? HP total? Did you have any buffs on you at the time? (magic items or spells?) What did the GM roll to hit (each times)
Why did you fail to give any details?Does the (147) max damage listed in the monster stats assume max crit?
Even if it doesnt- did you add up all damage from each attack to verify that it equaled 147?And- are you saying that he hit you for 147 in ONE attack? and that it wasnt that your total damage was 147?
If none of the creatures SINGLE attacks get anywhere near 147, even on a crit (according to its bestiary entry) and the GM said it did...then he is wrong.
Sounds like a rookie GM... as in sounds like he didnt know how to handle combat with unusual creatures.
The chances of hitting all 5 times even with a monster who gets his highest attack modifier for all 5 attacks... is moderate at best, unless your AC is somehow 10 or less.
I didn't give details because I didn't want to debate it on the forums, I was asking for the protocol for appealing something that happened which doesn't require you to know the details. Nor was I complaining about the GM,he was not a rookie he was a fantastic GM.
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Played a mod this past weekend, was killed during it. Got home from the convention and reviewed the scenario... Monster that killed me hit me 5 times in one round one of which was a critical hit for a total of 147 points of damage. After reviewing the stat block I noticed that something was off, as 147 was the maximum damage the monster could have done rolling max on all attacks (including max rend and assuming power attack which did not happen.
Is it possible for anything to be done after the fact? I assume it was just a judge accidental mathematical error. I had no reason to suspect foul play during the scenario so why would I question it at the table?
What creature was this? (so we can look it up) What level were you? Race/Class? What is your AC? HP total? Did you have any buffs on you at the time? (magic items or spells?) What did the GM roll to hit (each times)
Why did you fail to give any details?Does the (147) max damage listed in the monster stats assume max crit?
Even if it doesnt- did you add up all damage from each attack to verify that it equaled 147?And- are you saying that he hit you for 147 in ONE attack? and that it wasnt that your total damage was 147?
If none of the creatures SINGLE attacks get anywhere near 147, even on a crit (according to its bestiary entry) and the GM said it did...then he is wrong.
Sounds like a rookie GM... as in sounds like he didnt know how to handle combat with unusual creatures.
The chances of hitting all 5 times even with a monster who gets his highest attack modifier for all 5 attacks... is moderate at best, unless your AC is somehow 10 or less.
Chuckle… you must not have read the rest of the thread based on your response here.
The GM in question was not only a 5-star GM, but also the author of the scenario. He is also legendary. Yes, it was Kyle Baird, the most feared GM in PFS-dom. So he was certainly prepared, and he certainly knows how to run complicated creatures.
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And on that attack, I believe all 5 attacks were 14 or higher including the confirmation which I believe was a 19 (0.7% chance of doing that again). Add to that the above average damage dice roll... *scary*
Let's see, chances Advanced Gugs do at least 147 on 5 attacks, all attacks at least 14 including only one nat 20 confirmed with at least a 19:
Attacks: 30% * 4 (4 attacks of 14-19) * 5% * 10% (one attack of exactly 20 confirmed by a 19 or 20) = 0.7%
Damage: 1d8 + 6d6 (3 claws, one crit claw, rend) + 112. Chances that 1d8 plus 6d6 is equal to or more than 35 (147-112) = 2.87%
Chances of both of these things happening? 1 in nearly 5000 times.
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Yes, but what you fear doesn't count. Its whether others fear the GM's you fear more than they fear you.He is also legendary. Yes, it was Kyle Baird, the most feared GM in PFS-dom.That's a bit much. ;-) There are several GMs who I fear.
That's their mistake. Those Georgia boys* have a mean streak.
*obviously excluding Nani because she's full of kittens and sunshine.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Yes, but what you fear doesn't count. Its whether others fear the GM's you fear more than they fear you.He is also legendary. Yes, it was Kyle Baird, the most feared GM in PFS-dom.That's a bit much. ;-) There are several GMs who I fear.That's their mistake. Those Georgia boys* have a mean streak.
*obviously excluding Nani because she's full of kittens and sunshine.
One-eyed kittens?
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does its tactics say it always power attacks?Considering that I wrote the tactics...
"X's are brutal combatants driven by hunger. The X's utilize Power Attack as much as possible; each attempts to kill a single target and retreat with the corpse."
Ah it is this combat, I know exactly what you are talking about.
I ran that recently at Gateway Stratigicon in LA last week and I must say it was my favorite table of the Con. I had a small table that landed in the mid level and I had to convince everyone that they did not want to play up. Everyone had a ton of fun, good writting.
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does its tactics say it always power attacks?Considering that I wrote the tactics...
"X's are brutal combatants driven by hunger. The X's utilize Power Attack as much as possible; each attempts to kill a single target and retreat with the corpse."
Ah it is this combat, I know exactly what you are talking about.
I ran that recently at Gateway Stratigicon in LA last week and I must say it was my favorite table of the Con. I had a small table that landed in the mid level and I had to convince everyone that they did not want to play up. Everyone had a ton of fun, good writting.
Thanks! Write a review yet? ;-)
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When you write the review for one of Kyle's scenarios please make sure to note if you found it more or less scary than a one eyed kitten.
:-P
BTW I will proudly run Kyle's scenarios at any convention or game day I organiz
Me too... and I will add the fluff of one-eyed kittens everywhere as setting;p
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Yes, but what you fear doesn't count. Its whether others fear the GM's you fear more than they fear you.He is also legendary. Yes, it was Kyle Baird, the most feared GM in PFS-dom.That's a bit much. ;-) There are several GMs who I fear.That's their mistake. Those Georgia boys* have a mean streak.
*obviously excluding Nani because she's full of kittens and sunshine.
Yet Nani was the one who killed me (using a scenario co-written by Kyle Baird) the night before. It was a double team of deadly proportions.
I have now been TPK'ed (Total Pratt Killed) as both Nani and Kyle Pratt have made my monk wake up feeling a bit drained at a local temple.
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He is also legendary. Yes, it was Kyle Baird, the most feared GM in PFS-dom.That's a bit much. ;-) There are several GMs who I fear.
You give me much honor, sir.
One-eyed kittens?I don't know you, but I hate you.
Yep. One-eyed kitten > Baird.
Tis now PFS cannon. I saw it with my own two eyes.
-Pain
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Yes, but what you fear doesn't count. Its whether others fear the GM's you fear more than they fear you.He is also legendary. Yes, it was Kyle Baird, the most feared GM in PFS-dom.That's a bit much. ;-) There are several GMs who I fear.That's their mistake. Those Georgia boys* have a mean streak.
*obviously excluding Nani because she's full of kittens and sunshine.
Wait until I run Moonscar for you.