The number one thing that makes wizards beyond the reach of sorcerers, and I haven't seen this point on casual glance of the thread (apologies if I missed anything), is their potential amount (and variety) of spells available to cast at any time. It is in fact a potentially near-infinite amount. If you learn to look outside the box of 'spell slots', you will see why wiz > sorc.
The wizard needs to think about his resources while a sorcerer just gets what's coming to him. Key: you are a wizard, think accordingly. You need to think about an optimal set of prepared spells, but also how you enhance those spells with your other abilities. You need to be PREPARED. But think about his actual resources: a wizard starts with a spellbook with a great number of spells, an amount that hopefully grows throughout the campaign. With access to that amount of different spells, comes the ability to have all of them ready with some invested resources.
If you are about to reply that the wizard has only a limited amount of spell slots, you are overlooking a valuable wizard ability: Scribe Scroll. With that single ability which you get for free at first level, you can potentially prepare any spell by scribing it on a scroll. A good wizard is prepared: he has a large amount of different spells available on scrolls in addition to his prepared spells (these should be spells which are effective no matter the circumstances, like summons). A good wizard has at any time more spells 'prepared' (prepared + scrolls) than a sorcerer. A sorcerer can pick up the SS feat, sure, but he will only gain the ability of writing scrolls of his known spells.
IF a wizard uses his repertoire of divination spells, he even has the ability to prepare a specialized set of spells to deal with a specific threat. A sorcerer does not have this ability. At this point this is just gravy...
There are then at least two things you can do to close the gap:
-Scribing takes time and resources. Preferably you can starve the wizard for time. If the pressure of time is upon a wizard, he must allocate resources between scribing scrolls or preparing spells, since a spell prepared for scroll scribing is a slot unavailable for that day. You can starve him for resources but you're likely putting him below WBL and that has all sorts of different issues. Don't forget that scrolls are cheap to make by RAW.
-Enforce an action economy penalty for using scrolls, you need to actually grab them of course. This does not solve the main problem since a well prepared wizard will usually have a repertoire of outside-combat spells as scrolls (where action economy is irrelevant), and combat spells as prepared. But this does limit his options of preparing loads of combat spells for when his prepared spells run out or do not fit the situation.
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So much Wizard hate in here.
"Schrodinger's Wizard" is hand's down THE most powerful class in the game - nigh unstoppable.
But PC wizards are not "Schrodinger's Wizard." It's a pretty common occurance to prepare spells and never use them because the situations they fit just don't come up.
Sorcerers don't have to deal with this problem. And in what world are we living where Bloodlines aren't head-and-tails above Speciality Schools?
Wizard is fine. If you want to nerf it for your players, then that's your call, but at least have the decency to admit that it's not a balance problem you have, it's an emotional problem.
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Schrodinger's Wizard is not a myth: Handy Haversack + Scribe Scroll
Schrodinger's Wizard is not a myth: Handy Haversack + Scribe Scroll
Two flaws to this argument: Time and Money
Scribing isn't expensive... Until you decide you need to fill that Haversack. Then it becomes very expensive. And scrolls aren't an investment you get to keep forever - If you don't use them, they're wasted money, and if you do use them, they're used up and can't be used again.
And it's 2 hours per scroll for 2nd level and below. 1 day per scroll for 3rd-4th level. 2 days per scroll for 5th-6th level. 3 days per scroll for 7th-8th level. 4 days for 9th level. (Because I know I've never met a GM nice enough to just round down for anything above 1k but below 2k.)
If you're playing Kingmaker, congrats on your uber-wizard. Otherwise, you're too busy adventuring to be filling a Haversack with scrolls.
Maybe read my first post. :) But since you agree it is possible you agree it is not a myth.
It's also possible for an Arcane Sorcerer to create that Staff of Wishes. It'll just never happen. ;)
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but the advantage of the Wizard over the Sorcerer is versatility.
Don't give the Wizard free spells every level, and keep control over the spells you allow him to learn in the game. You still want to give him *more* spells than the Sorcerer, but you don't have to give him free roam over the CRB and all the supplements.
3x the number of Sorcerer spells known per level fits about right.
Sorcerers are better with Metamagic.
Wizards are better with Item Creation. Item Creation takes lots of random spells you might not have even wanted, so you have to be able to cover those.
Then add in the "you're supposed to have more versatility" argument, and 3 (maybe 4) times as many is a good fit.
More than that and you're just coddling your Wizard player.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned, but the advantage of the Wizard over the Sorcerer is versatility.
Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana
Schrodinger's Wizard is a myth, Schrodinger's Sorcerer is very real.
Even using a bonded item a wizard is limited to the spells in his spellbook, the sorcerer is limited only by spells published.
I read through half of page 1 and then posted this so I apologize if it's just a rehash. But if you limit a wizard to only their spells gained by leveling you'll pretty well limit them. From there only give them access to other spells via scrolls that only make sense to your campaign or you don't mind them having to flesh them out as necessary.
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QUOTE]The 5th level wizard casts haste. How is your 5th level sorcerer outdoing in damage output? Being a venerable dragonwrought kobold?
And at 6th level the sorcer recieves 3 third level spell slots vs a wizards 2. The wizard had to choose to prepare multiple haste spells in advance. The sorcerer makes the choice dynamically, and using paragon surge can make that choice from any published spell.
By 8th level, when the wizard receives is third spell slot, the sorcerer is up to 5. The wizard never receives 5.
Even if I was playing with ARG (it's core+APG only for me) I would not allow that cheese.
And I could impose any house rule I wanted. It does not change the state of the game as published.
You sacrifice a 3rd level spell known, in order to potentially have exactly the right spell prepared exactly when you need it, and the only downside is it takes two rounds to do what you want instead of one? Nevermind that you could Quicken it... (A great candidate for Spell Perfection even!)
That seems all sorts of worth it if you ask me.
It's all sorts of worth it for out of combat usage. I'd probably pick it around level 8 or so, when you've got enough spells known to still be effective in combat without spending that extra action.
And I think it would be worth spell perfecting it. Very much worth it.
Hi everyone,
I'm searching for a way to nerf the wizard down to approximately meet the powerlevel of the sorcerer (with human fav class ability nerfed to 1/2 for spontanious casters). I'm looking for a simple solution not involving complicated rule changes (staying as close to the original PF mechanics as possible), probably something involving the spells known table.
One idea in my head is to slow the wizard's spell progression by one level. Do you think that would be appropriate?
Do you think that if this is done to the wizard, the cleric and druid should be nerfed as well?
Please post only if you agree that 1. wizard is the most powerfull class in PF and 2. Wizards are mechanically superior to sorcerers. This thread is about how to fix it for people who think this is an issue not to discuss wether it is, so please stay on topic.
Thanks in advance!
-- Spock
As mentioned in this thread, you could buff sorcerers. I thought the best would be to give them a 0 spells per day every level before they get a new spell level. This would work like Paladin and Rangers spell lots do. This would along give them 2nd level spells at 3rd character level, 3rd level spells at 5th character level, and so on; but only if they had the CHA for it. For spells known bump up the bloodline spells by two levels. This would allow you to get new spell levels at same rate as a wizard but would make your bloodline alot more important.
Did that make sense? I can try and clean it up.
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Personally as a GM I would never allow the Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana combo. Because Expanded Arcana is based on knowledge, and I would only allow feats that don't depend on knowledge like power attack or such, since it doen't make sense to learn something use that knowledge and then not know it again. More, you would have to have known about the spell to begin with or your char wouldn't even think of it for lack of knowledge (and how would your char think about such a tactic?).
Personally, on the Paragon Surge issue, I think it should state that the first time you use the spell you must choose what feat and any choices for that feat, and you gain the same every time.
But that might maybe make it too weak a spell.