
thejeff |
Not to add more fuel to the fire, but really, if you lads dislike DWD's threads, then stop posting in them.
But ganging up to attack a poster seems quite distasteful and improper of gentlemen, in my opinion.
As for the subject:
I believe the source of confusion is at the use of the term Atheism itself, which no one seems to be sure how to properly employ anymore. Note the word itself says nothing about belief or lack of it; it says "Lack of God" or "Without God". The first guys to use that term, Greeks, made it up to refer to those who didn't follow the formally accepted pantheon; whether this was born out of a lack of belief, social rupturism or a theological afront didn't really factor in. At its origin, at least, the word seems to point more toward a behaviour (not following/paying attention to a god/gods) than a condition (lack of belief)
In the same line, if we look at it on a strictly linguistical terms, Agnostic only means "Lack of Knowledge" or "Without Knowledge". Belief is not factored in either. However, Agnostic does imply a condition rather than a behaviour, because it does not consider whether the person wants to know or accepts a particular knowledge, but rather if the person knows or doesn't know.
So, you have Atheism -behaviour- and Agnosticism -condition-, meaning you can have both terms creating a matrix of posibilities, as it has been explained already in this thread. However, no segment of said matrix necessarily rules out belief: an Agnostic Atheist could very well believe in a god, but refuse to bow to one born out of a lack of proof, just like I can believe in a company to do its work, but still refuse to get in bed with it unless it signs a contract.
Words do not mean what the sum of their roots mean. That isn't how language works.

thejeff |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is no confusion.
The entire point of these semantic discussions of atheism/agnosticism everytime I've seen them, aside from spawning endless pages of vitriol for your amusement, is to pigeonhole atheists as just as dogmatic as theists and atheism as requiring just as much faith. Everyone claiming atheism is assumed to be claiming 100% certainty and thus can be ignored since they can't prove it. If they object, they're told they're actually agnostic, lumped in with people who are actually unsure (You know the ones who are closer to 50/50 than 99.99% sure) and ignored on that basis.
The dishonest thing about this approach is that we don't take this approach to belief in any other topic. If I say I don't believe in Santa Claus, no one accuses me being dogmatic if I don't qualify that by admitting some tiny probability that I could be wrong.
For the record:
I don't believe in Santa Claus.
I don't believe in fairies.
I don't believe in Space Brothers.
I do believe we landed on the moon.
I do believe President Obama was born in Hawaii.
I do believe in China, despite never having seen it with my own eyes.
I do not believe in God.
I am not 100% certain of any of these things. My levels of certainty vary, but are well over 90% for all of them. God would fall somewhat more likely than Last Thursdayism and somewhat less likely than the brain in a jar theory.
Does it make sense to lump me as an agnostic along with someone who really doesn't know either way or with a believer who's having doubts?
Do I get lumped in with the little kid who still believes in Santa, but who's worried because her big brother told her it was really their parents?

Klaus van der Kroft |

Disagreeing with something that doesn't exist is like refusing to acknowledge the star wars prequels.
Hence why you can have Atheists with belief and without belief if we don't peg the term to said condition. The case you mention would be the latter. However, there are well-documented cases of the former, one such example being in India, were an Atheist Cult used to exist (I'm unsure whether it still exists or not, however), men and women who, while they believed in the existence of gods, actively refused to follow them. They claimed belief, though not knowledge, yet had no gods. By the original definition of the words, they would be classified as Agnostic Atheists.
Words do not mean what the sum of their roots mean. That isn't how language works.
Words do not necessarily mean the sum of their root, but that does not mean they sometimes can; a woodcutter is someone or something that cuts wood.
However, my point, and thus the reason I specified it, was to use the terms as close as able to their original meaning, since nowadays these words carry a lot of baggage and interpretations that often lead to confusion. Since there seems to be a disagreement on which source to quote for their meaning, I thought the most sensible manner was to dissect the words into their base meanings. I do not claim those to be the absolute significants in any case, however.
There is no confusion.
The entire point of these semantic discussions of atheism/agnosticism everytime I've seen them, aside from spawning endless pages of vitriol for your amusement, is to pigeonhole atheists as just as dogmatic as theists and atheism as requiring just as much faith. Everyone claiming atheism is assumed to be claiming 100% certainty and thus can be ignored since they can't prove it. If they object, they're told they're actually agnostic, lumped in with people who are actually unsure (You know the ones who are closer to 50/50 than 99.99% sure) and ignored on that basis.
I do not believe that to be the case. But then again, this is in the field of personal interpretation.

pres man |

If you don't know, you don't know. It's fine.
They're finally making the prequels? Awesome!
Nope, but I heard a guy who was not much of a fan made a bunch of hack job "fan-fiction" films.

meatrace |

I do not believe that to be the case. But then again, this is in the field of personal interpretation....
It's more in the field of pattern recognition. Have you never been in a DD religious thread? He does the same thing, predictably, every time. As was outlined above. He insists that atheism requires the same level of faith that belief in god does, because of his own rhetorical definition, ignoring protests to the contrary and things like "agnostic atheism" which the vast majority of us are.
But regardless, telling someone to their face what they believe is pretty offensive in itself.

thejeff |
Klaus van der Kroft wrote:I do not believe that to be the case. But then again, this is in the field of personal interpretation....
It's more in the field of pattern recognition. Have you never been in a DD religious thread? He does the same thing, predictably, every time. As was outlined above. He insists that atheism requires the same level of faith that belief in god does, because of his own rhetorical definition, ignoring protests to the contrary and things like "agnostic atheism" which the vast majority of us are.
But regardless, telling someone to their face what they believe is pretty offensive in itself.
It's more than just DD. I've seen the same pattern in atheism/theist/agnostic debates all over the web.
Mind you, not everyone involved has the same motives. It's easy just to get sucked into the semantic debate.
bugleyman |

He does the same thing, predictably, every time. As was outlined above. He insists that atheism requires the same level of faith that belief in god does, because of his own rhetorical definition, ignoring protests to the contrary and things like "agnostic atheism" which the vast majority of us are.
That is unfair!
You forgot the part where he pontificates on our ignorance.

meatrace |

meatrace wrote:He does the same thing, predictably, every time. As was outlined above. He insists that atheism requires the same level of faith that belief in god does, because of his own rhetorical definition, ignoring protests to the contrary and things like "agnostic atheism" which the vast majority of us are.That is unfair!
You forgot the part where he pontificates on our ignorance.
Ooh ooh!
Or how, when challenged on something, he deftly changes the subject or just doesn't respond.