When a PC rolls a knowledge check to find out more about a monster, how much info do you give them?
The knowledge skill portion of the Core Rulebook is helpful but not conclusive.
Do you reveal Damage Resistance? Spell resistance? Special powers? Approximate Hit dice?
Or do you keep it vague?
It depends on how high the roll is. The higher, the more info they get. Starting with name of the monster, maybe type/subtype. Next would be defensive information, then offensive.
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I paraphrase everything to avoid using game terms like HD, AC, damage reduction, and so on. If a creature's lost half its hit points, I describe it as "wounded", "occasionally wincing in pain", or something along those lines. My players never see the creature stats or sheets - and most of the time I end up improvising anyway...If I'm lucky, they only go through the published adventure backwards.
I ask because I am DMing for a group of people that have never played Pathfinder or D&D so don't know simple things like how Silver weapons are needed for Were-stuff and Cold Iron for demons.
It's possible that a CR 3 might become a little too tough for them if I don't reveal some Damage Resistance.
But...in nearly every first party and third party bestiary, if a knowledge check table is included, the first few Difficulty Class levels are usually centered around vague rumors with only the final, most difficult class specifically detailing a monster's most signature special ability.
See "The Monsternomicon, Vol.1" by Privateer Press, which is a great book but confused me as to how knowledge checks are meant to work.
Thanks for all the help by the way!
If they barely hit the DC, I'll give them the name of the monster and maybe something iconic about it. For a ghoul, for example, I'll mention that they paralyze with a touch.
If they beat the DC by a decent amount, like 5 or more, I'll start giving more information, including a real quick summary of the information in the description of the monster. A higher check for a ghoul and I'll mention that they spread Ghoul Fever with their strikes, that they can see in the dark, that elves are immune to their paralysis, and they're harder than normal undead to turn. I'll also give a quick summary of how the first ghouls were rumoured to have been cannibals come back to life after death to feast on corpses, and how there is talk of ghoul civilizations deep beneath the earth.
I'll never reveal any numerical information, though my group has started using a video game color challenge system to reveal CR information, meaning I'll reveal how difficult the monster or encounter would be based on the party's level. A single ghoul would be a yellow encounter for a group of 1st level characters, while a pack of 4 would be a red encounter.
In summary:
Fail check - nothing, or maybe tell the player what the creature is similar to.
Hit CR - creature name, what type of creature it is (undead, etc) and most common abilities (bite attacks, has poison, etc)
Exceed CR by 5 - Most abilities and common tactics, a little bit of obscure knowledge, obvious resistances (fire elementals are immune to fire demons cold iron, devils silver), languages, common weaknesses (swarms take extra damage from area effects)
Exceed CR by 10 or more - All resistances (storm giants and electricity, gibbering mouthers and bludgeoning damage), common feats (power attack, improved crit), specific disease and poison information (it does Con damage, it causes confusion as per the spell), obscure rumours, creature origins, specific weaknesses (transmute rock to mud vs. stone golems, what destroys specific molds)
If they are new, I would give them both fluff and the mechanical terms based on how well they beat the DC, maybe giving them a bit of a break on the better known monsters. That way, when you get to the tougher monsters, you can use the same non-mechanical language, and they can hopefully put the pieces together enough to figure out the mechanical bits they need to know.
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My .02, always give the players enough for everyone to have fun. In this case, you're going to have to work a little harder to ensure the game doesn't end in frustration since these are new players.
You can always make a knowledge roll for them at any point, even before play begins. In other words, the roll doesn't always have to be "right here, right now" and "all or nothing". You can choose how to filter the information they need, and when to pass it along.
Don't let the dice decide for you. If they need to know that monster x can only be killed by item y, find an interesting way to let them know. Perhaps they overhear a local legend that spills the beans, or they find a silver weapon still sheathed on a decayed corpse that clearly was intent, as they are, on hunting the beast.
When the party does get information, it's always best to try to pass it along in a way that is in character. A character doesn't know when a monster is at 50% hp, but he certainly knows when it is mortally wounded!
When in doubt, pick the whichever direction leads to having the best time even if it means looking past the rulebook!
I ask because I am DMing for a group of people that have never played Pathfinder or D&D so don't know simple things like how Silver weapons are needed for Were-stuff and Cold Iron for demons.
It's possible that a CR 3 might become a little too tough for them if I don't reveal some Damage Resistance.
Agreed with most of above. The higher the role, the more info provided.
Name, Ecology, weaknesses, defenses, offensive abilities.. in that order for the most part.
Ah, And as Martryn suggests: Iconic abilities: Ghoul touch, dragon breath, Petrification gaze etc. That would be right there with name for the most part.
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I'm personally still feeling out how I want to do this as a GM. I do feel pretty solid about the first "helpful piece of information" (the one you get just for meeting the DC) including the name, a basic idea of what the heck it is, and any standardized traits (such as undead traits, swarm traits, etc) that it might have.
The subsequent bits... I dunno. I'm considering making cards with info based on how well-known different details are and hand them out in order. Like this:
DC 6 card: It's a giant spider, a type of mindless vermin.
DC 11 card: It's known for its poisonous bite and web-throwing ability.
DC 16 card: Fortunately, it possesses no exceptional defenses.
A more complicated creature would have more cards, probably. But you'd get whatever it's known for first, then gradually less obvious abilities with higher check results.
I pre-build the knowledge charts for every creature, location, etc. that I can think the PC's might find interesting. At the lower numbers I give the general creature type info, then sub-type info the up to specific creature info.
For NPC and Locations I am much more vague, and a knowledge check alone may not be good enough to get the real info the PC's want. That forces them to use spells and NPC to aid in their research. And yes, even then things are sometimes unknowable.
Right, so the question above, with which I totally agree is, what can an average adventurer reasonably expect to know? Let's face it, there isn't a way to really determine this using the ruleset.
In an earlier post, someone mentioned a dc 6 check to determine what you are looking at is a spider (not picking on that poster, it's a good example). Let's suppose the creature is about to nibble the party wizard (can't take 10) and said wizard rolls a 2 on his knowledge check. Is it reasonable to believe our elf wizrd, raised in the forest, and an experienced adventurer wouldn't know he was looking at a spider? Of course not!
It is reasonable that in the heat of the moment, he might miss a subtle detail that might help him to identify what sort of poison the spider has just injected into his blood stream.
Similarly, many melee types are dumb. They dump unnecessary mental stats, yet they survive, sometimes in to advanced levels. The mechanics don't really account for learned intellectual experience. Is it reasonable to assume a 10 level fighter that has spent his entire career in a desert campaign wouldn't be able to identify a camel spider, even though he doesn't have either nature or local knowledge skill? Again, of course not.
It's incumbent upon the gm to fill in where the rules and dice leave a gap. This is a hallmark of a good gm in my book!
Forgot to add it's equally important at times to keep certain details from players that might otherwise ruin an encounter. Doing so is a whole lot trickier and can get you accused of a bunch of nasty things. How you accomplish this is equally tricky.
My take is that every monster can be unique. 99% of all werewolves can be identical to what you find in the rulebook, but this one is different enough to pose a challenge. After all, if this was just a run o the mill werewolf wouldn't local hunters already have killed it?
The key is to remember the gm is always on the players side. You want to make every session memorable and fun for everyone, including you. Blowing past an army of kobolds and taking zero hp damage is rarely memorable, but barely squeeking out of a combat with gosh knows what with single digit hps is.
Of course, this was one session in 2nd edition when my totally rule bendinding cavalier killed the god primus in a single turn that I never forgot! That was mostly because the gm nearly broke doen in tears, lol.
The other thing to note is this.
If there's something you feel the players need to know, just find a way to tell them. Don't rely on them a) thinking to try a knowledge skill and b) getting a high enough result on that check.
If your players need to know about the monster having damage reduction, they're probably going to need to know in advance. So plant an NPC who'll mention it before the party goes on the adventure, if it's feasible to do that. If they're being hired to kill a werewolf, for example, have the person hiring them share that information.
I ask because I am DMing for a group of people that have never played Pathfinder or D&D so don't know simple things like how Silver weapons are needed for Were-stuff and Cold Iron for demons.
It's possible that a CR 3 might become a little too tough for them if I don't reveal some Damage Resistance.
But...in nearly every first party and third party bestiary, if a knowledge check table is included, the first few Difficulty Class levels are usually centered around vague rumors with only the final, most difficult class specifically detailing a monster's most signature special ability ...
1) Vague rumors could still include hints about the DR. "Your teacher once told you that most steel weapons barely hurt demons. But as far as you know he never actually faught any."
2) If I really think they need a particular bit of info, I will give that to them for the first level.
3) For newbies, I mentally give them a +5 on these kinds of knowledge rolls to help them out.
4) I would also say things like, "the arrow sliced right through the creatures upper arm. However, there was no blood and the wound appears to be rabidly closing up as you watch."
5) I'm also likely to lower the DC a bit if they ask specific questions instead of just a general knowledge check. Like instead of "What do I know about that thing?" they could ask "Have I ever heard of what monster hunters do to kill werewolves?"
It depends on the information. I put monsters into either the common category(CR+10) knowledge check needed just to identify them. Every + 5 gains one offensive and defensive bit of information.
Rare monsters base DC is CR+15.
For my games I consider dragons to be rare, just because they are rare(not a high number of them), but also because the chances of defeating one and/or getting away are rare. That is why the information is more difficult to come across. Many outsiders also get the same treatment.
I will give them the name, description, and basic knowledge of the monster type. They also get the answer to one specific question about that monster plus one additional question for every five points the check result exceeded the DC.
Works great!