This is a thread dedicated to a finalized version of this idea.
Here is what I have so far. I need some ideas for some class features.
The concept is something along the lines of the Low Templar's two paths.
Constructive Criticism, Ideas, and Opinions are requested.
Azaelas Fayth
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So far it looks good to me. I like how it being kept simplified and thus easier to run/play. Also of course I love keeping it as a full spell progression.
Salvation/Damnation can run the same way as Damned on the Demoniac.
When an agent is killed, his soul is instantly claimed by the power he serves. In time, his soul is transformed into an outsider appropriate to the sins or virtues he exemplified while he lived. Any character attempting to resurrect a slain agent must succeed at a caster level check equal to 10 + the agent’s level or the spell fails. That character cannot attempt to resurrect the agent again until the following day, though other characters can attempt to do so if they please.
Mark of Light/Darkness. Again I would use the Demoniac with some changes.
An agent bears the sign of the outsider whose favor he earned as a tattoo-like brand somewhere on his body. Once per day, an can call upon the power of this mark to power a spell as he casts it. Doing so causes the spell to gain the descriptors of his alignment, and causes the spell not be expended as it is cast, allowing the agent to cast the spell again at a later point in the day.
Sorry if you already planned that and simply had not updated yet. I'm thinking of the other abilities to add in while keeping it simple.
Salvation/Damnation will for the most part will be the same.
I was thinking the Mark would grant some spell-like abilities, provide a bonus on certain checks regarding outsiders, and even serve as a holy/unholy symbol. After all it isn't just for Spellcasters. I can easily see a Paladin, Ranger(reference), and even a Rogue taking this class.
OK I can't edit my previous post and docs isn't working for me right now...
Proto-Type Mark of Light/Darkness:
Mark of Light:
Mark may be used as a holy symbol.
Gains the following spell-like abilities:
lesser: at-will: detect evil, bless water, stabilize, light
Standard: 3/Day each: Circle against Evil, daylight
Greater: 1/Day each: Hallow
Mark of Darkness:
Mark may be used as an unholy symbol.
Gains the following spell-like abilities:
lesser: at-will: detect good, curse water, bleed, darkness
Standard: 3/Day each: Circle against Good, deeper darkness
Greater: 1/Day each: Unhallow
Made it a evolving bonus. Levels 3, 6, & 9
Update: the google docs page should have the levels for the Mark stages now.
Main thing I need now is some more abilities... I prefer scaling abilities that way they are easier to keep track of. Also I need the level 10 final ability.
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I like the unique form of the demoniac personally, but that may be a bit difficult to make into alternate paths. But it seemed like a neat idea that you can wind up actually being a part of the very hosts you have served.
If that will not work then perhaps something to show you have fully committed yourself to the cause of your patron.
Unique form?
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Sorry. The problem with posting in a hurry right before my game. Its called Demonic Form. I just liked the prospect of being able to possibly become a unique outsider for a number of minutes equal to your caster level.
It sounded intriguing and like a nice capstone, but it is fairly powerful as abilities go. It grants the outsider type, alignment types, DR, resistances and telepathy. It also grants one physical transformation of your choice.
So looking at it may be a bit overpowered for some GMs or games.
If it was allowed I would probably simply look up the abilities almost all celestials have in common. Then check what the dark forces have in common and adjust to keep it simple. Like I believe instead of telepathy most celestial get tongues as a constant ability.
As I stated I think as a capstone given how it is shaping up it should give you something really nice like being considered a member of the host you sided with or able to turn into a being similar to the host your alignment matches. Just something to show how fully you have dedicated yourself to one side.
You just gave me a large variety of options... I should have it ironed out.
I did? I was just thinking and rambled my thoughts on the matter. Bad habit of mine. I have to admit you are far better at building classes and writing them concisely than I am. I have to constantly have my mother read my classes and such to help me write things in a clear concise manner.
Believe it or not I just type my ramblings out then take the good and delete the bad... I have a habit of rambling as well... surprisingly it helps a lot.
OK a quick update:
I have some ideas for a "Unique Form" chain of abilities. I should be able to have them up later tonight or tomorrow.
That is... if I can get them down onto paper... Basically there are so many it is ridiculous... in fact last count was around 42 (the answer to everything, no?) To be waded through and cut down to size.
Now it is 02:30 here were I am... so good night.
I think what would also be a goo thing to do is to kind of mirror an ability of a charater that I like form the Series Vampire Hunter D, more specifically, te movie blood lust. The charater Grove Marcus. At certain points in the movie he takes this form of almost a Avatar and is able to shoot rays of light, its a pretty cool thing when you first see the movie and are pretty young.
kinda goes along with your "unique form" idea. but personally when i think of an Agent of Good or Evil, I think of a person that is generally broad or bland, but has a odd tick to them. Like Chigurn from No Country for Old Men, rather then a person that is decked out in Black spiked armor or jet white cloaks.
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I rather imagine either way most of those who take the class will be odd. They are siding to the point they eventually are able to change form. I have no idea what Azaelas has in mind, but from what I have seen it will be good.
Basically the unique form is kinda becoming an avatar with abilities unique to the host/side you chose. I rather envision when you take the form you look sort of like the host that matches your alignment the most. So a Neutral Good may look like an Angel or more likely an Agathion. Your abilities are based on whether you are good or evil for the sake of simplicity.
I imagine a GM could tweak this a step further and have you fully become a native outsider of your alignment's host. Thus fully transforming you into one of them with less abilities than a full member as you are still a mortal and thus are not a perfect conduit for the holy or unholy energy, but the unique form could grant the ability to pull of those abilities as you can become a perfect mortal conduit for holy or unholy energy.
OK the idea I had comes in one of 2 flavors.
First: you gain abilities such as Claws, Bite, Gore, Wings, other featuses as you slowly evolve into a pseudo-outsider.
Or
Second: You gain an ability similar to a Druids Wild Shape. Only limited to Outsiders tied to a certain plane or alignment.
Also I am thinking of adding in the ability to Channel Energy as a Cleric. Use the Agent level as your Cleric level. If you already have a Channel Energy feature your agent levels stock with those levels to determine your Effective Cleric Level.
Capstone ability is becoming an Outsider(Native) and can become his outsider form at will or shift at will
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Hmm this is a hard thought. I like both for about the same reasons.
Option 1
I like this as it slowly changes you over into the capstone. It fits nicely with a lot of things. Including the Aasimar/Tiefling race and the templates for half-celestial/half-fiend. It can really play on a divine heritage if the character has one for some reason.
I also like it for the fact it allows the player to control how they look are the abilities they gain as they level
Option 2
I like as it gives you a great deal of flex on which style of outsider you are. It can also grant you quite a few abilities from the actual outsider. The limit is reasonable given how it should work and it holds the appeal of appearing as a specific outsider.
I think I personally prefer option 1. This is due to my preference for some control over what my character looks like. Also I really do like the idea that because of your choices you can look like a completely unique outsider.
Channeling
I love this idea and it helps to really tie in the divine players or simply underlines this is a holy/unholy class anyone can take.
Capstone
I do like that ability. Will it act like the Outsider(Native) in the bestiary?
All in all it looks good to me and I think you have done very well in making this a fully flexible class that any good/evil alignment can take. Everything looks fairly balanced and in line with what we expected of it.
Oh... you are too kind...
OK so option one was my favorite as well. Question is should it be limited or unlimited. Should you have temporary abilities or permanent changes? (I'm in the permanent changes camp)
Channeling will come at level 2.
Outsider(Native) will be exactly like Bestiary entry. Though I'm thinking Maybe just adding the extraplaner subtype. Or you count as an Outsider(Native) and your original type.
On the abilities I am thinking it be right now just up to your GM what you can choose.
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I'm in favor of it being permanent as well. With the capstone showing you as having finished your 'evolution'.
Drop the extraplanar unless you plan on the home plane being elsewhere. You are extraplanar if you leave your home plane, but adding the alignment subtype would work very well.
The part where you keep your original subtype as well would be good too. as that means anything that affected you before due to being that race still does.
I'm in favor of it being permanent as well. With the capstone showing you as having finished your 'evolution'.
Drop the extraplanar unless you plan on the home plane being elsewhere. You are extraplanar if you leave your home plane, but adding the alignment subtype would work very well.
The part where you keep your original subtype as well would be good too. as that means anything that affected you before due to being that race still does.
I was thinking the extraplaner would be more to the fact that say if you are NG you would be considered welcome on... Elysium(?) And that would lead to it being considered your home... but yours makes more sense.
I'm thinking for a NG Human Agent:
Outsider(Native, Human, Good)
Say he chose Claws, Bite, etc. For his Evolutions when he achieves Agent 10 he appears as an Agathion(?).
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I would say he appears as a unique Agathion. The animal he appears as is based on how the player envisions his character. Of course the player could choose to appear as a unique angel instead as they are also NG and can appear as any celestial they choose.
This could lead to every player with a unique vision of their character and very rarely will they choose the same path twice (I hope). I would play with this multiple times just to see how they turn out every time.
I would say he appears as a unique Agathion. The animal he appears as is based on how the player envisions his character. Of course the player could choose to appear as a unique angel instead as they are also NG and can appear as any celestial they choose.
This could lead to every player with a unique vision of their character and very rarely will they choose the same path twice (I hope). I would play with this multiple times just to see how they turn out every time.
That is exactly what I mean! I could make my Agent appear as a Wolf-based Agathion or as a brutalistic Angel of War... I think the latter made me a bit to happy...
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lol. I love that.
I play a sorcerer/oracle who has a grandmother who is an avatar to the goddess of fire and love. That avatar is a good aligned succubus. Her father is the avatar of the goddess of fate and time and a former mortal human. Her mother is the daughter of the succubus. So this would be highly intriguing to put on that character and see how she turns out.
lol. I love that.
I play a sorcerer/oracle who has a grandmother who is an avatar to the goddess of fire and love. That avatar is a good aligned succubus. Her father is the avatar of the goddess of fate and time and a former mortal human. Her mother is the daughter of the succubus. So this would be highly intriguing to put on that character and see how she turns out.
... her father is the avatar... of a Goddess...
Do you mean Herald?
And that would be cool!
Also I still need some method of laying it out over the levels. Also Channel Energy will also evolve Lay on hands.
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Herald fits very well. Yeah he was elevated when he died to be her herald. He deals with quite a few issues in keeping timelines straight and ensuring nobody mucks things up badly. He comes from a line that has a lot of vampires, liches and such in it.
Her grandmother is as well so she has a lot of celestial blood in her. Her grandmother, the succubus, lost a game of wits and wound up as the herald of the goddes of fire and love.
So I get lots of fun stuff to play with in this character. She is the daughter of another player's character and my character of that campaign.
Now let me think as very little actually alters your character permantly. Eidolons involve a point buy and there is the druid wild shape. There is an archetype for the Nagaji in the ARG where you can become a a full naga and choose certain features to evolve into. How many evolutions are we talking about?
3? 5? 7? 9? or a full 10? The answer of how to work it will depend on how many permanent changes you want to allow the player to make.
I think 5 would be balanced. Then you get them on every even or every odd level.
Do we want those evolutions to be completely GM and player discussion? That can be done or the GM can make their own list of evolutions to allow the player for each celestial or fiend type. I would vote on that myself.
Every even level. The list for now is up to the GM. This is while I work on the list for each alignment or each group of Outsiders.
For most of the list it will probably be the same...
Actually... a quick glance leads me to believe all you need is a list divided along the Good/Evil axis. Simply because most of them are alike. Next is the restrictions. After all this class is available at level 7 (if I lower the skill requirements to 6) we probably wouldn't want a level 8 character with flight.
I think what would also be a goo thing to do is to kind of mirror an ability of a charater that I like form the Series Vampire Hunter D, more specifically, te movie blood lust. The charater Grove Marcus. At certain points in the movie he takes this form of almost a Avatar and is able to shoot rays of light, its a pretty cool thing when you first see the movie and are pretty young.
kinda goes along with your "unique form" idea. but personally when i think of an Agent of Good or Evil, I think of a person that is generally broad or bland, but has a odd tick to them. Like Chigurn from No Country for Old Men, rather then a person that is decked out in Black spiked armor or jet white cloaks.
I don't think I ever responded to you.
I actually had a Light Ray ability planned. I was thinking they would be more of the secret society kind of thing. Not jet black armor or mist white cloaks. Someone covertly conducting missions in the name of Good/Evil. That is until being overt is necessary.
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I would simply do what things like Revelations and Magus Arcanas have on them. Where if you can't take them straight away they have a level you must match in order to take it. That puts in control while still allowing flex. It can also force you to plan for having that ability.
That is probably what I will do when I sit down to tweak the list.
:3 I love it!
How about one of these for the Name: Outsider Aspect or Aspect of Light/Darkness
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Since we are trying to keep a strict theme of light or dark as opposed to outsider I say go with Aspect of Light/Darkness. It keeps with the theme on the mark and salvation/damnation.
Outsider aspect hints at more than the celestial or fiendish. Granted a GM could allow that, but I would rather keep with the theme of the class.
This has shaped up to be far more interesting class than I expected and even more intriguing is that we kinda made it so even a non-spellcaster might find this interesting. I have a monk I would love to put this on as well and I don't care that I would give up the spellcasting feature on it.
I was thinking the same thing. Make a class similar to the Dragonslayer PrC in 3.5's Draconomicon. It has increased spellcasting, but appealed to many martial characters as well.
Aspect of Light/Darkness does fit better.
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Alright. I was wide awake tonight and so sat down to work on the Aspects and Final Form. Though I think the final form needs work its the best I could come up with currently based on what we had already discussed.
First the aspects
Aspect of Light/Dark: Starting at 2nd level and every even level after the agent chooses a new aspect. This is a permanent change to the agent. Once an aspect is chosen it can not be changed. An agent chooses from a list depending on whether they are good aligned or neutral aligned. A GM is free to add to the list at their discretion.
Unless otherwise noted each aspect is only available once:
Light Aspects:
Damage Reduction 10/Evil: You gain a DR that is only overcome by evil.
Petrification Immunity: You gain immunity to petrification affects.
True Speech: You can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to agent's level). This ability is always active.
Dark Aspects:
Damage Reduction 10/Good. You gain a DR that is only overcome by good.
Poison Immunity: You gain immunity to all posions.
Telepathy: You are able to hear and speak mentally with other creatures that have a language and an intelligence score of at least 3. They must be with 100' of you or this ability will not work.
Aspects open to both paths:
Spell Resistance: This number is 11+class level. This may be lowered as a standard action. This ability is available to 4th level Agents
Fly: You gain a fly speed equal to double your land speed with average maneuverability. You may choose to have wings for this ability. This ability is available to 4th level Agents
Natural Attack: Gain a Natural Attack. You grow what you need to deliver the natural attack. You may select this multiple times. Each time you must select a new natural attack.
Change Shape: Gain Alter Self as a spell-like ability useable at will. This ability is available to 4th level Agents
Spell-like ability: Select a spell-like ability and gain the ability to use it the same number of times. This ability is available to 8th level Agents.
Resist [element] 10: You may choose two elements. You gain a resistance of 10 against those them. You may not select sonic resistance
Now the Final Form
Form of Light/Dark: You gain a celestial or fiendish form. The way you appear is dictated by the aspects you chose. These plus any description you like will now be your true form.
You become an Outsider with the following subtypes: Native, Racial (your former race or races if a hybrid), Good/Evil. You also gain an additional aspect that you may choose along with your normal choice at this level.
DR should probably be scaled. Say DR 1/Agent Level.
Same with Energy Resistance. Make it 1 type per time taken and allow it to be taken multiple times.
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The DR Aspects now read. I hope this controls it and makes it easy to understand at the same time.
Damage Reduction/Evil: You gain a DR that is only overcome by evil. The amount of DR you gain is equal to your Agent level.
Damage Reduction/Good. You gain a DR that is only overcome by good. The amount of DR you gain is equal to your Agent level.
That works much better. I'll make the adjustment on the sheet I have for it.
It makes more sense and heads off potential issues. I was hesitant to put DR on there int he first place.
Same here. As it stands i will probably not be able to update the docs file for a while. As I am going through and reloading the files I had for my Homebrew and such. They ended up getting deleted or something. Thank Shelyn for external HDDs
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Your luckier than me. If I delete I have to rebuild. I could also limit the DR to like level 6. As the entry level of 7-8 that means you cannot select DR until your at least level 13-14.
I do think scaling both is a good answer. and I will see to it. I hope most of the other stuff met your quality standards.
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Posted a moment too fast. I meant to add on the new Element resist. If I'm going to simply have multiple takes and scaling I put sonic resist back up for grabs as at least one celestial has it.
Resist [element]: You may choose an element. Your resistance is equal to your Agent level. This may be selected multiple times. Each time it is taken you must select a new element.
Believe it or not my quality standards are pretty low. It is the formatting and balance standards that are high.
P.S.: You do know there is an edit button right next to Reply right?
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I know of the edit button. I simply forget about it when I'm juggling 3-4 things at a time. I'm re doing the Rainbow Servant for a friend whose Pathfinder game I'm in. He wants it as couatls will be major and I'm to test it in game on my witch, plus finishing the write-up of my deities, then I need to write up another continent of my world.
Plus I'm leveling dogs on Furry Paws and going over the Agent to ensure I like it before I hand it over to any other GMs. I have two to hand it to and see how they feel about it.
Formatting and balance are part of quality standards when it comes to a class, prestige class or anything game related. So I include them in quality standards.
True... so true... I have a final, and around 50 projects to make sure I get ironed out.
You seem to have it down well. It allows an Aasimar and Tiefling to supplement their racial talents with their transformations.
Then I think we have it settled out and it should work without destroying games. I'm fairly pleased with it and think it will work as well. It was fun to work with you on this. I'll have to do it again sometime when we both have the chance or want to do something game related.
I agree. I hope to someday work with you again. It was a pleasure meeting you.