Yep, the CRB definitely isn't as clear as it should be on this.Basically, there are four main categories:
Non-aquatic creatures
Non-aquatic creatures with a Swim Speed
Aquatic creatures using Natural Weapons
Aquatic creatures using Crafted Weapons
As for the Mutiny as RAW...Its the climax of ap after the island not on board the ship at day 5 before the island (the ship journey is 5 days, the island is RAW 48hrs so that makes it 7 days at least before the mutiny happens. So if you play RAW then the mutiny wont happen until then...
I respectfully disagree.
MUTINY! (CR varies)
The PCs can lead a mutiny against Mr. Plugg and Master Scourge at any time, of course, but the most advantageous time...
If the DM is doing any credit to the NPCs, the PCs will want to mutiny "early" anyway. On a vaguely related point, the title "The Wormwood Mutiny" is a little (deliberately?) misleading; it should be "The Man's Promise Mutiny" but I think "The Wormwood Mutiny" sounds better.
So I would say there's nothing wrong with the timing of Sarf's mutiny.
And thank you for highlighting the finer points of underwater combat and the non-piercing nature of reefclaw attacks. That will be a saving feature when it comes to my group's turn at this AP. (Soonish... soonish...) I also like the example of a rogue with team spirit - nicely done!
We had an easier time of it than I suspect most groups might have in the first book - which is to say that it was 'only' very hard. I attribute this to the following reasons:
Our GM skipped the rum ration. He felt it didn't add anything to the game and we agreed.
One of our four characters is a Half-Orc Invulnerable Rager. DR 2/- against non-lethal damage goes a long way.
One of our charcaters is a Master Summoner - the ability to summon water elementals to battle aquatic threats turned out to be huge.
We ambushed Plugg and his men the second night away from the Wormwood - one group bottle-necked the crew in their quarters while the Master Summoner summoned hordes of dire rats in their midst while 2 other PC's (and Sandara) squared off against Plugg.
The 'final battle' on the island actually got split into two battles... the first half at the wreck of the Promise while we were repairing it and the second half when we tracked them back to their lair. If we had had to deal with all of the baddies in their lair at once it could very easily have been a TPK.
Yeah now underwater combat makes a bit more sense. Why would a creature at home in its environment need to be nerfed. Where as a land based creature would suffer as they are not suited to aquatic life. If the creature attacks with itts natural weapon which is designed to function underwater why nerf it where as a weapon used on land in the water won't function as its meant to. Perfect sense when you look at it
If the AP isn't challenging you, and it's challenge you want, then in the end it comes down to your GM stepping up. Paizo writes their APs to reach the largest audience. Writing tough-as-nails, TPK-inducing adventures isn't going to help them any.
I'll add that if you're looking for one of those "tough-as-nails, TPK-inducing adventures" (or at least very challenging ones), you might be interested in "The Slumbering Tsar" by Greg A. Vaughn and published by Frog God Games. 100% Pathfinder, and sounds like it should be a good challenge for your kind of group.
Uri I agree the mutiny needs to happen earlier, ours happened on night 3.
Its just he staes that: SPOILER ALERT...
I just want everyone to remember we play everything in paizo APS RAW
If they were playing RAW and not changing anything and following the way the ap works the mutiny is set up to happen after the players have done what they need to do on the island.
The ship is shipwrecked and Plugg orders them to find water, they have 48 hours before the ship sails. Plugg then uses this time to organise the crew and prepare to ambush them.
If you move the mutiny to an earlier date then you have to change the way the mutinty happens RAW and the text block that Plugg says about ordering them to get water also needs to be changed as he is not there anymore and no-body will want to order the PC's if they have just mutined.
So...they are NOT playing the AP as written, the GM has had to change it to adapt to thier new plans, if he can change that then he can ramp up the encounters to compensate for the party finding it too easy.
As Varanna states you are either playing RAW or your'e not.
At the end of the day though players are funny things, they will always do unexpected things and throw the AP as written out the window. You need to adapt the AP to the party and react to events as they happen, if the AP changes then its up to the GM to step up and either get it back on course or go with the flow. This will mean changes. I really don't think you can run an AP as written without changing something as each party is different, running an AP takes a heck of a lot of work.
Thats the joy of being a GM though. :))
climbing ropes in a non-combat situation should be fine.
During combat? bad weather? yes those need to be rolled.Also: I'm not the op or part of his group
taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10)you can make an excuse to always be in some sort of danger ("ever got a cold?" no to a con check for cold weather for 10 mins, "ever accidentally inhaled sea water?" no to swim checks, "ever accidentally swallowed bird poop?" no to perception checks). It actually makes things like dumping str and such stink (since they cannot make many dcs by taking 10). We take immediate danger to mean something is trying to murder you in a round by round basis.
IMHO "taking 10" is for controlled environment like workshops only, routine transaction without great risk.
But climbing ropes on a ship in motion : Feel welcome to try. Much harder than on a climbing wall or mountain ( because that stuff does not move). Watch the drop. Same for "boarding drill" and stuff.Take 10 to swab decks.. your call. But "take 10" to climb the mast, on a lurching and creaking vessel, on rope ladeers of variable strength ?
"Immediate danger" to my mind is the chance of an event going catastrophically wrong and the player being aware of it. In combat. Out of combat.
Uri I agree the mutiny needs to happen earlier, ours happened on night 3.
Its just he staes that: SPOILER ALERT...
I just want everyone to remember we play everything in paizo APS RAW
If they were playing RAW and not changing anything and following the way the ap works the mutiny is set up to happen after the players have done what they need to do on the island.
The ship is shipwrecked and Plugg orders them to find water, they have 48 hours before the ship sails. Plugg then uses this time to organise the crew and prepare to ambush them.
If you move the mutiny to an earlier date then you have to change the way the mutinty happens RAW and the text block that Plugg says about ordering them to get water also needs to be changed as he is not there anymore and no-body will want to order the PC's if they have just mutined.
So...they are NOT playing the AP as written, the GM has had to change it to adapt to thier new plans, if he can change that then he can ramp up the encounters to compensate for the party finding it too easy.
As Varanna states you are either playing RAW or your'e not.
At the end of the day though players are funny things, they will always do unexpected things and throw the AP as written out the window. You need to adapt the AP to the party and react to events as they happen, if the AP changes then its up to the GM to step up and either get it back on course or go with the flow. This will mean changes. I really don't think you can run an AP as written without changing something as each party is different, running an AP takes a heck of a lot of work.
Thats the joy of being a GM though. :))
It may be semantics, but I have to disagree. Putting in foes that aren't in the book or taking foes out that are, that would be changing RAW, but the book specifically mentions and makes allowances for players mutinying before the island rather than after. The fact that that is mentioned in the AP as a realistic option and possibility makes it RAW.
There are many instances within AP's (including this one) where a series of events is listed - some say they HAVE to happen first or last or can't happen until a very specific set of circumstances are met while others are allowed to happen in any order at all. The AP mentions the mutiny, mentions that it could happen earlier and has no prohibitions against it... therefor I consider it RAW.
Again, it might just be semantics but that's how I see it.
I agree with you wiggz, adding enemies to encounters however does change the book. It changes the loot we would get, the amount of experience we get and what resources we may have to expend. These are huge factors, if we level up early it could make stuff even easier. If we have additional gold it could again, make things easier in the long run. Ferrin, we are a group of 5 DMs, if he started adding advanced templates to mobs that arn't supposed to have it, we'd be able to tell by the way he rolls. Then we'd ask him about it when he handed out xp for a non advanced creature. In fact, most of us do our xp before he has a chance to tell us because we already know what its going to be. Not to mention as we progress further, throwing in an extra bad guy could mean an extra +1 weapon, or an extra 3-4k gold. Which is nothing to sneeze at if you have to do that every encounter.
Just to clarify though, we play the APS RAW, which means the DM follows the book to the letter in order to stop us from derailing the campaign. If we manage to derail it on our own, then poopoo for us. It is still dnd, and we still have our own options, but the dms job is to keep it as close as possible, making adjustments only after we have made a mess of things. I hope this helps explain it.
Varthanna/Ferrin - I believe that underwater combat penalties still apply to aquatic creatures. Either that or they should then receive a penalty on land. See, a creature like a shark is always fought in terrain where it has advantage, which usually means a raised CR, however this is never taken into account by the APS or by most dms in general. This leads us to conclude that they aren't actually gaining as much a benefit from the terrain as we would think, which is why we take it RAW (that they still suffer penalties for not using piercing attacks). It also makes sense from a physics standpoint, things just don't work like that underwater, even 'aeronautically dynamical?' are still hampered. (That sentence sucks, but you get the meaning) The resistance is still there, its just reduced due to the shapes of their bodies for movement and such. However, a crab claw is still clumsily shaped and it should be reduced damage underwater. Especially when they can fight on land with no penalty.
That's you're groups call but by doing that you nerf the encounter making it easier. The ref is in the prd in the games masters guide under fast ship combat. It states that the underwater combat rules are for land based creatures those at home in the water don't suffer from it. You will need to agree which way to go as the ap has lots of underwater combat. This will make them easier for you. What ever y way go is you're call
Sarf, do you play using minis? I've noticed that combat is a lot tougher *with* them than without. Without minis your PC can, in essence, "teleport" to places that would normally be out of range by simply stating or suggesting that "he/she should be close enough" when a map and minis would clearly show this to be true or not... usually not.
Also the reefclaws and other aquatic sub-types take no penalty for using their natural attacks under water. The Gilman wouldn't either IF he was using non-manufactured natural weapons... if he was using a hook he'd be taking some pretty stiff penalties. Also 13HP doesn't quite tell the whole story when you take into account ferocity and poison. The reef claws could take penalties for attacking if they were on land but A) they could attack an adjacent foe *from the water* without taking a penalty and B) would simply circle around until you entered the water again and resumed their attack.
Also, most of the locks on the wormwood are good locks (DC 30). The DC to open the lock to the quarter master's room was 30 AND rigged with a poisoned trap (I found this out after I shmoozed the quarter master and she told me about it). Also, according to the AP you are never further away than 30' from anyone on the ship at any given point in time. So A) even if you did manage to pick open the lock to the quartermasters room AND avoid the trap you wouldn't have time to loot it all and B) even if you did you'd have no place to put it and C) even if you did manage to loot it all Scourge would tear the ship apart looking for all the missing stuff and gut whoever was responsible.
Not to mention the fact that the default build point for any AP is 15 character points.
Bro, your GM is totally taking it easy on you. Maybe he thinks you guys wouldn't have liked the module as written and did his own thing. The only thing that matters is that you're having a good time or not. If not, or if you think the module is too easy tell your GM.
after we have made a mess of things. I hope this helps explain it.
Varthanna/Ferrin - I believe that underwater combat penalties still apply to aquatic creatures. Either that or they should then receive a penalty on land.
All the penalties from the underwater combat table 13-7 apply only to creatures that must make "swim" checks. The "aquatic" subtype allows creatures to not use swim checks in water, they just move in it. So bascially all the modifers from 13-7 are not applicable
Also, please tell the objections to a kraken or a water elemental who only use slams as their primary attacks. Yeah, in their natural environment.
They face no penalty because they are "aquatic". RAW.
as for stats : we play with a modified 20 point buy, but certain specific encounters on the isle just... you know, are not really affected by stats.
This thread is sheer awesome. I'm dotting this for future reference, since my DM showed interest in running Skull & Shackles.
I know I should really let this go, but when people try to dispute my mathematics, I feel obliged to respond.
Even if you were incorrectly applying the -2 attack and half damage to the reefclaws, they should still eat the barbarian for lunch.
Using your own numbers, the barbarian's AC is 19 and raged when combat started, making it 17. Since your DM does not pull punches, the reefclaws must have been flanking him meaning they'd need 15s to hit (30% chance). Now, they're only doing (1d4)/2 damage per hit, but they get 4 attacks a round for an average of 1.2 hits per round.
Your own assertation was that it would take about 10 rounds for you to kill the first reefclaw. In 10 rounds, they will have hit you (on average) 12 times for a total of (12d4)/2 = 6d4 = 15 damage.
On top of the damage, 12 hits means 12 changes to grapple (occuring half the time against CMD 21) which would inflict constriction damage (not halved as per underwater grapple rules) for another 6d4 = 15 damage. You'd also have to make 12 fortitude saves or start losing strength (plus an extra one for each failure). Even a single failed save means your damage output goes down by 2 for each of your hits. Even if you only fail about 3 saves (assuming you have about +4 or +5 Fort Save) of the original 12, you'd probably fail another of the following 3, for an average of 4d2 = 6 STR damage.
For the time being, I'll ignore its effect on your damage output and still assume you can finish off the first reefclaw in 10 rounds.
So, unless you were extremely lucky, you played the rules incorrectly or your DM was intentionally going easy on you, you should suffer (on average) about 30 damage and 6 STR damage.
And that's only by the time you've dealt with the first one...
So the route of the problems lie with the following
The Ap is built around a 15 point build.
The Underwater combat encounters are bulit arond the assumption that aqautic creatures don't use the underwater combat table and can hit as normal natural weapons as laid out in the GM guide and PRD.
The players don't know the adventure so are just going on GM faith that the adventure is being followed by the book.
The GM won't change anything even though the adventure is too easy.
The facts
1) They are using 25 point buy (not the groups fault, its not mentioned anywhere other than here)
2) They have advanced races some of which have resistances and abilites that are above what normal core races recive (gillman, Dhampire for intstance) (Not there fault either and fine to do this)
3)The underwater combat rules have been misinterrited and nerfing the reefclaw encounter (this is not thier fault as the core rules are far too vague and unless you have the gm guide you wouldny really know)
4)It looks like some of the points on the wormwood have been glossed over (locks, ship actions rum rations,etc) To be honest again I don't blame them for this. They played one session for what looks like 12 hours straight? If you did 21 days of ship actions straight without modifing them and condensing the days it must have started to get a bit boring esp on the days with nothing happening. Is it any wonder the GM glossed over some points?
However it does seem to everyone that the GM is either making it too easy or the above poits are skewing the game somewhat.
If you change the initial parameters of the ap, such as the above or have more than the 4 players the GM must be on standby to cahnge the encounters to suit otherwise the it will start the break the AP which looks like what has happened here.
From what I can see there are only a few ways to change this.
1) The players change the PC's back to 15 point buys.
2) They use the underwater combat rules as they are meant to be used.
if none of the above suits the group then the only other option is to talk to the GM to change the encounters to make it harder. You don't have to add more treasure, keep it as is, heck you don't even need to add more XP. The AP tells you what level the party needs to be at what point. Scrap the XP and use that instead.
If you they want to carry on they way they are thats fine too but the adventure will never be a challenge and will always be easy.
Failing that scrap the AP and play Slumbering Tsar instead.
But whatever you decide to do have fun as thats waht its all about. If you're not having fun then the only person who can change this is the GM. You will to talk to him to fix the problems.
Enjoy Whatever you ddo dude :))
Tem - I gave you the math for a non raging barbarian (as per what my post says) so that you could see how trivial the fight could be. Your math is still poor. But I will redo it, with all the correct numbers this time (barring the rolls, which I already stated were above average, but not game breaking.)
So Raging Gillman Barbarian, swinging a piercing weapon vs reefclaws.
Barbarian to hit +5
Barbarian damage 1d10+6 Average damage per round 11.5
Barbarian AC 17
Barbarian HP 16
Barbarian Fort Save: +10
Reefclaw to hit +0
Reefclaw damage 1d4/2
Reefclaw AC 14
Reefclaw attacks per round 2
Reefclaw HP 27
Okay so those are the numbers that we already know. Since our barbarians initiative is higher, and he didn't fail the perception check, for sake of ease he goes first. Barbarian swings, does 11 points. Puts himself in posistion to only get full attacked by 1 creature for the round. Other 1 has to move in. Creatures attack 3x (90% chance of hitting) They miss. Now heres where things can vary, if barbarian hits the same reefclaw, that reefclaw then falls into negative hit points and becomes STAGGERED, if he misses, I agree the fight would be a bit more difficult.
Barbarian hits, setting reefclaw into -22, and staggering it. He then moves away provoking AoO's. One of these AoOs is a hit (120% chance of hitting), the other is a miss (50% chance of hitting). The Reefclaw hits, unfortunately won't make the grab, as it has a 50% shot. Barbarian however now has taken 2 points of damage. He is also 30 feet away, which means he is not getting full attacked this next round. Reefclaws swim up and 1 attacks from flank (other is staggered) (80% chance of hit) it misses. Barbarian then attacks the one thats flanking him. Barbarian kills it. Barbarian is now fighting one reefclaw. Which he just killed while only taking 2 damage from the last. Rinse, repeat, barbarian gets grappled, switches to a dagger (actually states in my original post.) but still manages to win without ever being really in danger.
Now theres a few things you ignored in the entirety of the thread. I already previously stated our barbarian rolled better than average. He could effectively kill 1 reefclaw in 2 hits. Or stagger a reefclaw in 1 hit. Which makes the fight EVEN EASIER should that happen. You also forgot 100% about stagger from ferocity. Next the fort save is DC 13, our gillman here fails that on a 3. About 1/6th of the time. As you saw from combat, he doesn't get hit 6x. The numbers I posted in the original post was to show how easy the fight would have been if he didn't rage, then at the end of it I added that it was more dangerous but he did in fact do it.
The next thing im going to address is the underwater rules. This argument has already been had on these forums once before. The majority of posters in the rules forum agreed that natural attacks were still subject to reducing. Here is the thread: Underwater combat discussion To my knowledge, it still has never been clarified whether referring to "land based creatures" excludes aquatic creature subtype or not. If it has, then our campaign was running on old knowledge and please show me a james jacob post that fixes it, then I'll be glad to use the clarification. Till then, I trust my rules subforum friends.
Oscarmike - Yes we play with minis, full grids, terrain modifiers, critical hit and miss decks. I already explained oscar (previously in this thread) that I didn't steal from the big chest as I knew there was extra loot in it from my diplomacy check. Please reread the thread before you continue the same moot arguments that have already occurred. Its fun to debate, silly to debate the same thing twice.
Again guys, I appreciate the comments and the enjoyable discussion! Keep em coming.
EDIT - Wow guys, that kinda makes me look silly. Apparently James did comment on the situation and I just hadn't reviewed the thread in several months. It apparently will be added to the errata, so please disregard our poor use of underwater rules. The needed adjustments will be made in game. Not gonna edit out the blunder, this way everyone can bask in my poopooness. It also seems most of you already knew this as it was stated the correct way james supports it - Natural weapons unaffected, manufactured affected. I apologize for my misplaced arguments. However, for the record, I still don't think our barbarian was in any danger from the reefclaws. Albeit, the numbers probably only favored him due to good rolls now.
Ferrin - We will play with the proper underwater combat rules as now we have them. I read that argument back in may and never finished reading into its resolution, as such didn't get the jacobs official until I went back to reread it. I still don't see it getting much tougher, as our gillaman will still ignore most important penalties.
It seems the race choice coupled with our high point buy is whats causing this. The race choice shouldn't matter in my opinion as they list rules for playing these advanced races, but I do see the point. Our point buy issue will be changed for this adventure, and for every adventure further. We may even bring our homebrew campaigns down to this, although we do enjoy rolling, and its alot easier to balance monsters vs a party in homebrew campaigns than it is in an AP. Thank you all for your input, I'm learning new stuff with every post. Please try and keep up the spoiler tags.
Well, your barbarian keeps getting better, it seems. Based on hp when raging, I would have to conclude that his Con is 14 or 15. How exactly does that translate into a fort save of +10 at level 1?
Also, the reefclaws, with their superior speed in an open environment just swam up to you and let you take the first swing? Initiative has nothing to do with it. They can charge you from 80 feet away. So, on that count, the DM was going easy on you. Believe me, this is a huge aspect to combat in general. With one charge and another charge into a flank, the odds are good that you're grappled before you get your first swing off. Even if you're not, neither will be staggered after the first round and they can do it again, plus the AoOs if you move away.
I won't bother commenting on the rest as it doesn't really continue to add to the thread. I'll simply say that the small errors that seem to come up in your game tend to favour the players. That, coupled with more powerful races and a 25 point-buy will indeed make the game feel a heck of a lot easier.
You should find a difference (especially in Skull and Shackles) once you start giving the underwater creatures their due with the proper rules. Beyond that, changing the point buy will definitely make a good difference as well.
Like others have said your races will still give you a slight advantage so you can still expect some encounters to be fairly easy when they were originally supposed to hold a challenge. Even though these races are listed in the Advanced Race Guide, many of them are actually considered completely optional and still subject to DM oversight which means the APs don't plan for them in mind either (much like the point buy). This is doubly true for those races that have special movement types (burrow, climb, fly, swim). But it shouldn't be a big deal beyond Book 2. Racial advantages are eventually eclipsed by powers gained from levels - I'd say somewhere around Level 7. That is, unless you use a bunch of other stuff from the ARG as well to extend the effectiveness of your race (which is always an option).
Barbarian HP 16
Barbarian Fort Save: +10
I really don't see where he's getting that immense fort save from. Considering his HP, I assume he's still level 1, with the 12/HD for barbarian. So his save should be:
2 (base) + 2 (rage) + 2 (con) = 6, unless you haven't updated the HP total for rage, in which case it should be +3-4 from con, either way, still not a hefty +10.
Nevertheless, barbarians are really powerful at level 1. He should crush his foes, especially when being a gillman eliminates the negatives from swimming.
TEM - His con is actually 18. His exact stats for future reference: Str: 15, Dex: 16, Con: 18, Int:7 , Wis: 7, Cha: 15. +4 from raging gives him a con of 22. This provides him +6 to his save, +2 from class gives him a total of +8. I believe he also has a trait which is +9. The +10 is apparently a cheat bonus I've given him. Don't quote me on the trait either till I can see his sheet. Could've sworn it was +10 though, but perhaps it is only 9, I doubt he took great fortitude I'd have to check to be certain. Going with +9 though, it still does not change the math. Your also forgetting that if they charge before the barbarian goes, their to hit is still the same, and they only get 1 attack (+2 hit is negated by the fact the barbarian hasn't raged yet). So no, by the math of your charge into flank, all they've done is missed their attacks and made themselves easier to hit, but that didn't happen, so your hypothetical is also irrelevant.
Max hp at level gives him 16 hp, no favored class benefit as its in oracle. Technically raging he'd be at 18. The barbarian can charge from 60 ft away as well. Since he made his perception check, and beat them in initiative, he goes first. And their flatfooted. Regardless of this however, the dm chose for them to be less than 30ft away pre combat (probably for perception reasons and for them being near enough to the crab pot area), so the barbarian didn't even have to charge. I'm assuming its because he didn't want to force them to charge as well, and for ease of controlling the underwater environment, again not sure till I read the AP.
I'm starting to believe at this point that your becoming frustrated with the discussion, so I'll politely ask that you drop it. It is no longer constructive, and if you want to do math with me I'd be fine to take it to private messages. We've gone from providing valuable underwater combat information and insight to a generic your numbers vs mine argument.
The Block Knight - I agree. We do have the ARG, however at level 7 is when freedom of movement is available for the most part. So it should balance out around then. The point buy becomes less important approaching level 12, but a +2 to every stat never really goes away. I do tend to agree however, that for the beginning the races will give us a superior advantage. At least the gillman anyways. It seems our main failing was the lack of proper point buy information available in the books. I should have researched it prior, but that was many years ago and well before I even frequented these forums. We will be switching our point buy to compensate, and I'd be happy to update with information on what happens to our group because of it.
I'm amused by your somewhat adversarial stance to your GM, where they *must* run it RAW, so I'll pass this on: he didn't run the reefclaw encounter entirely RAW.
the PCs arrive at the reef, eager to get a rare taste of human flesh.
Sounds like the reefclaws should get the drop on them, rather than the other way around.
But yes, the crux of your issue seems to be the higher point buy, and the advanced races. Hopefully things will improve once you drop it down. However, considering your group's system mastery, I don't think you're likely to encounter a difficult AP unless the dice are against you.
Sarf you're welcome I hope we managed to help you out. Any more problems that crop up just ask. I'm sure an answer can be found somewhere.
Yeah, always glad to be of help.
LOL, there were only supposed to be two reefclaws? We fought three.... though maybe my GM modified it since there are more than four players at the table...
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We just finished book 1. Had lots of fun RPing through first part. Than my players get to the isle. Had lost 1 to reefclaws, and now 3 to the isle. One guy had just started, and his PC died within about an hour of play. Kept having to add "released" prisoners from the "mans promise". If after changing your point buy ,and you find it easy than my comment is "Im sorry", AP's may not be for you as RAW. Not sure how you can run an AP RAW when it is a sand box style. there are so much that the PC's will do that changes things, or at least effects things. Well. will wait to here how the isle goes, but than it may not since you took the ship on day one. What direction are you going in than? And than there is the manning of said ship, since you killed part of the already skeleton crew. See this gets out of the RAW stuff cause it's not in there. Your GM will have to add in things. Just my 2 cents.
There are rules for sailing under skeleton crew in the player's guide, I believe. Even if the ship was taken on Day 1, (spoiler typed up then deleted to comply with Sarf's No Spoiler request) the encounters can still happen. The AP does address that, so I don't get how those "deviations" are no longer considered "RAW". If it can only happen 1 scripted way, then it's not RPG, it's a novel/movie/whatever.
Not sure how you can run an AP RAW when it is a sand box style.
A+
His GM doesn't want extra prep, doesn't mean his GM doesn't perform at the table. A GM "adds things" with every breath and dice toss - there's no way around that. It's great playing with a group of all GMs. There's so much empathy and cooperation. (I'm not in Sarf's group but I can relate to much of what he's sharing.)(Edit: sentence completion)
Friend's group lost the entire set of PCs on the island afterhaving a very easy time on the ship. They even brought in an extra character who got pulped the same way as the first one^^. Ended the campaign after about five or six chars died, and the players (heavily into roleplay ) didn't really see the point of parachuting in extras who never had any beef with Harrigan or the Wormwood.
All by RAW, but OMG, that friend was really furious about some "borderline" calls...
Goes to show that even by RAW, it so much depends how the GM is adjucating situations and just how precisely characters react ingame
It definitely gets harder, thought I would highly recommend using the underwater rules as they are written, which means creatures with a swim speed using natural or piercing weapons take no penalties to attacks, and creatures with a swim speed suffer no penalties for movement. Further encounters use these rules heavily, especially at the end of this module and the next. Suffice it to say that even with the higher point buy our campaign is using, my PC's had FAR more difficulty with underwater activity.
Of course, your barbarian is a Gillman which will make the underwater encounters much easier with his swim speed negating the movement penalties, especially if he uses a piercing weapon like a trident. That said, your DM should pay careful attention to how he functions out of the water, because he is a water dependent character, require constant submersion to avoid becoming dried out. When exploring the island, I would think it would take extra time at the very least considering you would have to walk back to the coast every evening so he could submerge himself, cutting down on exploration time. And prior to that, if he were punished on the Wormwood with a night in the sweatbox, he could be in dire straights or dead by the time they got around to pulling him out.
I think you will run into problems with the Gillman later in the adventure path.
- a 5-foot step in water (open ocean or underwater) requires a swim check?
- for treading water, what is the swim DC?
You can't move in water unless you succeed on a Swim check (DC 10 for calm waters, DC 15 for rough waters, DC 20 for stormy waters). This includes 5-ft steps.
You tread water if you fail the Swim check by 4 or less (so the DCs for treading water specifically would be DC 6, DC 11, DC 16).
You begin sinking if you fail the Swim check by 5 or more.
You round down; unless specifically stated otherwise, the default assumption for Pathfinder is that fractions are rounded down.
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You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
via 5-foot-step
See also underwater-combat
Thanks; I thought that was in there somewhere, but I couldn't find it while posting so I elected to leave it out.
While my players have yet to get to the Reefclaw encounter (Happening Tonight, hopefully, and I greatly look forward to DMing it >:)), they've already had trouble with things as simple as the rats.
We have 6 players, 25 point build, and two players are using non-core races (Undine and Hobgoblin). We're only on the end of day 4, and we've already had numerous unconcious characters due to failing at climbing/punishments/rats, two rum-addicted characters, and one nearly died fighting the rats.
My players are built fairly well, but they're used to straight up simple combat. Fighting people without weapons or armor, having to do climb checks up to 60 ft high, constantly having to drink poison, having to fight rats in a very CQC situation where basically you can't move, and having to recieve punishment for failing minor duties has really challenged them so far.
Needless to say, we're having an absolute blast.
Even with the Undine, who can breath water, has a swim speed of 40, and can gain fast healing 2/day/level, I foresee the Reefclaw fight being tough. Why? Well, the gunslinger is all but useless, though he does have an underwater crossbow, the fighter's only underwater-friendly weapon is a punching dagger, our summoner is quite.. weak in combat (and is currently addicted to rum), without an aquatic-oriented eidolon, and well, the rogue, despite being aquatic himself, is quite squishy. Plus, we have NEVER even touched aquatic combat with this group before - I've been reading extensively on it, so I'm pretty sure I have the gist of what will happen, but the players.. I don't think they'll be ready.
I can't wait for tonight's session. >:)
undine swim speed is 30
He took this feat, which beefs up his swim speed a bit. Not the greatest of choices for a 1st level rogue, but he wanted to play on his racial abilities more, as he is quite unique in the party by having a swim speed.