Once again, I seek advice: As someone who hasnt read this entire AP yet, or even all of Hook Mtn Massacre, is it possible to replace the Ogres with a cooler (imho) enemy? Cyclops maybe? The ogres just dont really do it for me.
I realize this would require some re-writing of this chapter, but what about the rest of the AP? Am i shooting myself in the foot for the entire AP?
Your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.
Bumborro
These aren't your normal ogres.
I would say as long as they are giants you should be fine......but how would you want to do the Ogrekin stuff? Keep them as Ogrekin and then for Hook Mountain have the Cyclopeseseses?
I'm not sure. Like i was saying, i havent even read the whole chapter, but so far it just doesnt seem to flow smoothly. There is at least one old thread: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtyzelu?Wrestling-with-logic-in-Hook-Mountain that seems to support this view. So I a considering chopping out entire sections and changing alot of stuff (for this chapter only if possible.)
As far as them being not normal, i get that. But my players wouldnt be amused (not for long at least).
If you remove the ogrekins from the Graul homestead, then you might as well remove that entire encounter. Only the gruesome depravity of those ogrekin make that particular bit work.
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The Anniversary Edition does a great job in fixing the between-books shifts in tone and logical jumps. And Pathfinder ogres are nightmarishly horrific monsters. Read the whole chapter before you make changes. I think it works very well as-written.
Thanks, all. I'll read more and more and hopefully figure out what's best for my players....in the meantime, more feedback is certainly welcome though.
Bumborro have you read up much on Pathfinder ogres? Along with Goblins they are one of the races That had a good deal of re-working to make them more interesting.
Bumborro have you read up much on Pathfinder ogres? Along with Goblins they are one of the races That had a good deal of re-working to make them more interesting.
Wow, you folks really love your ogres! Haha. Trying to give them a chance here. Any recommended reading besides the Bestiary and the AP?
One of the classic revisited books. I forget the name. Ogres are basically hillbillies from the hills have eyes. This is how they are portrayed in the ap. I'm not sure why you find them borring.
One of the classic revisited books. I forget the name. Ogres are basically hillbillies from the hills have eyes. This is how they are portrayed in the ap. I'm not sure why you find them borring.
You mean "Classic Monsters Revisited". ;)
Yep, even without access to this wonderful book and the extra flavor it can bring to a game, Hook Mountain Massacre already details Ogres in all their hillbilly glory. If you've read the AP all the way through (or even halfway through) then I'm not sure how you have the impression that these are boring Ogres.
Have you ever seen a hillbilly horror film? Some of them are really good(disregarding most of the new generation crap that's produced nowadays, like Wrong Turn, ugh). I highly recommend Texas Chainsaw Massacre, The Hills Have Eyes, or House of 1000 Corpses (this last one is heavy with Rob Zombie's style so it's not for everyone). Granted, all of these recommendations are given under the assumption that you're at least 18.
Just like AP2 (The Skinsaw Murders) took its tone from stories/movies about slashers and murder cults, AP 3 (HHM) takes its tone from "classic" "American horror". Honestly, the biggest problem (for some people) with this module is that the Ogres are "too flavourful". Not everyone is comfortable with this sort of subject matter. If you think your players will have a problem with mature themes and that's why you need to replace the Ogres, than I totally get that. You never want to make your players too uncomfortable.
On the other hand, if that's not the problem, you should keep the Ogres. I think what Paizo has done with what used to be just a stupid brute is fantastic. Again, Classic Monsters Revisited can help add even more flavour, but even without it, all the nasty horror and dread you need is right there in the AP.
Also, replacing all the Ogres with Cyclopes means cutting the size of the clan almost in half (the difference between CR 3 and 5). And there's more work to be done there as well since you'll need to re-write a lot of the Ogres with class levels.
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All it takes is one of your ogres to give up his attack in melee to get close to a character and say "Boy you got a purty mouth" and your party should be freaked out. If your players don't want to take a shower after visiting Hook Mountain, you should go back and re-study how to play the ogres.
The whole idea is its supposed to be disgusting, creepy, and "I don't wanna go there" gross. If you are GMing for underage folks, then yes, just make them dumb brutes. Otherwise, run it so all you have to do is say Hook Mountain and your players go OMG!
I ran a little vignette for my PCs before they visited Foxglove Manor, where they were the group of Black Arrows (1-3rd lvl fighters, rangers, and rogues) going up against the ogrekin. We all know how that turned out, so they had a very good idea of what might happene if they lost when they got their with their main characters. You don't have to get graphic, just clear about what is going to happen.
Nice idea with the vignette. I find parallel storytelling techniques are great if you have a player group that can help pull them off, but you definitely need a group willing to cooperate. Luckily I have such a group and it sounds like you do as well.
To all others, redcelt's idea is really good but make sure to gauge your group's interest in different storytelling techniques first before you attempt such things.
Awww....the Grauls are quite the fun family of mutant monster miscreants.
You're missing out by removing them.
I felt like I did a horrid job of running the Graul family section...but, a year later, my players still speak of the depravities going on there and use it in discussions over what is "true evil".
Greg
Yeah, our group was horrified by the Grauls. We met the one with the giant finger out in the woods. Later when we reached the house and were attacked by his brother/father/whatever our GM showed us the artwork in the book. It shows this bestial ogrekin with a huge axe charging toward us. Bigfinger was in the picture too, crouched next to what looked to be a dead or dying horse. Even with the big axe coming at us, the only response we had was "What is he doing to that horse, and where is his finger?!"
Yeah-- my party burned the Gaul Farm to the ground after slaying its inhabitants and rescuing the psychologically-scarred Black Arrows.
I added a scene when the PCs entered the barn, they find three of the the Graul boys "playing" with Kaven... in the way the inbred hillbillies were "playing" with Ned Beatty's character in Deliverance. I made everyone roll horror checks [I've been using the mechanics from Heroes of Horror].
The ranger was catatonic when the PCs rescued him. It was three days before Kaven spoke, other than to wake up in the night screaming. They did have him for more than a week, after all...
By the gods, that's almost too much information. If your players can handle it though, all the power to ya. I can't say much, my group also has very boundaries when it comes to sensitivity. Poor, poor Kaven. No one deserves that.
Just like AP2 (The Skinsaw Murders) took its tone from stories/movies about slashers and murder cults, AP 3 (HHM) takes its tone from "classic" "American horror". Honestly, the biggest problem (for some people) with this module is that the Ogres are "too flavourful". Not everyone is comfortable with this sort of subject matter. If you think your players will have a problem with mature themes and that's why you need to replace the Ogres, than I totally get that. You never want to make your players too uncomfortable.
I ran into this problem in the other direction. I did not enjoy reading this module and I could not run it.
I avoided this module by simply advancing my player's PC's to 10th level (and let them raise their stuff directly to 62k).
Yes, I regret doing that, but I would not proceed otherwise.
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Ok, so at least its not just me and my group that doesnt or didnt enjoy this style of opponent....
Ok, so at least its not just me and my group that doesnt or didnt enjoy this style of opponent....
Far from it. But, your original post did not clarify "why" you didn't like the ogres.
As many people pointed out, the adventure is well written. ...it is just nauseating to read, and likely to play.
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Nauseating. Indeed. People are trying to eat dinner over here during our game!
Fortunately, that nausea has a cure when you're a PC -- kill them. Kill them all.
I think the players were most disturbed when, after all the earlier stuff, they fought Mammy and she cast black tentacles (I switched her to a witch, so her spells had to be switched up some). They really really didn't want anything to do with any tentacles she conjured up.
Nauseating. Indeed. People are trying to eat dinner over here during our game!
Ah! But, since you didn't say why you objected, people gave you the wrong advice. :(
Nauseating. Indeed. People are trying to eat dinner over here during our game!Ah! But, since you didn't say why you objected, people gave you the wrong advice. :(
The reasons why I didn't like them wasn't the issue initially. The conversation just evolved into that over time.
Yeah, like I said, the tone of Pathfinder Ogres isn't for everyone. Now that I know you're not a fan of the style I'll give alternate advice.
Cyclopes aren't really fitting the theme of the region. Sure, they're giants, but if you want to keep things consistent with the setting than Cyclopes are not the way to go. They aren't really found around Varisia. They're mostly on Garund and the areas of Avistan bordering Iobaria. Plus, as I noted earlier, they're CR 5 which makes it a bit more work for you.
To keep the theme of giants may I recommend Trolls. Yes, also CR 5, but they have variants such as the Moss Troll (CR 3) which live in temperate forests and can be creepy and unnerving without being nauseating. So, have a tribe of Moss Trolls move into the area.
Later on, for the Dam and the mountain, graduate to normal Trolls and maybe some Rock Trolls for variety. This would change the dynamic a bit with Grazuul and his Troll pack but it could definitely work.
Hope that helps.
Edit 1: Also, I re-read your opening post to see where the misunderstanding came from. What probably threw people off was your phrasing of Ogres being "uncool". Cool carries different connotations for different people. That's my guess anyway.
Edit 2: Edit 1 ninja'd by ubiquitous. Well done. It appears we ninja'd each other. ;)
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The reasons why I didn't like them wasn't the issue initially. The conversation just evolved into that over time.
I think that the direction the conversation went in was due to you asking for a "cooler" enemy than the ogrekin, rather than you suspecting your players would not enjoy the - rather disturbing - encounters with the ogrekin.
To get this back on track - and because I don't have a proper answer, having not finished reading the module - is it possible to remove/neuter the ogrekin without much issue with the rest of the module/AP?
EDIT: Ninja'd with some good advice by The Block Knight.
Big Mammy Grillz is overdue for a cameo here. <evilgrin>
When I ran RotRL during its initial release my players loved every moment of the ogres and ogre kin.
As for selective reading - I believe the entire adventure is a nod to the origial TSR 1ed Giant Series may some insperation can be found there.
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In my Golarion the banjo is still the sound of fear.
