If no one has Knowledge: religion or rolls low, then yeah... Sure. Panic ensues.
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If no one has Knowledge: religion or rolls low, then yeah... Sure. Panic ensues.the panic is there because there is NO haunt. My question is, if you need to run from Haunts ("best defense is run away"), when do you run? At the first sign of anything you don't recognize?
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anyway, just wondering... why do you think Kn: religion tells you about haunts?I've heard this from many judges - heck, I've done this myself, but I am not seeing anywhere where this is discribed. And the reason I did it was because the players should get SOME way to tell what is hitting them.
If it is a creature, an undead creature, than Kn: religion would be the correct one.
If it's a spell, and the effects it generates tend to be spell like effects, then wouldn't it be Kn: Arcane?
If a Haunt is a Trap - and most judges consider it trap like (and some even call it a Trap, though an "undetectable trap that can't be disarmed") then it might be Kn: Dungeoneering or Kn: Engineering or something else.
I could even see saying it is a Kn: History or Kn: Local roll to learn the history of the Haunt.
edited: expanded answer
All good points.
I'd really like to see someone quote the whole paragraph, the page number, and the exact title of the source material for Knowledge: Religion check to identify haunts. I'd really, really like to see someone do that.
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But this thread should be about Haunts that aren't...
Does anyone else know any encounters that could look like a Haunt, and get the PCs to react as if they are encountering a Haunt, but are actually something else entirely?
I can think of no such case... Mainly cause such a situation does not start out with the GM stating, 'I'm sorry guys, They threw in another haunt.'
However, I could stand to hear a few of the stories of characters reacting to haunts that weren't.
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But this thread should be about Haunts that aren't...
Does anyone else know any encounters that could look like a Haunt, and get the PCs to react as if they are encountering a Haunt, but are actually something else entirely?
Of the encounters currently existing in pathfinder scenarios and modules? I can't think of any that could be mistaken as a haunt. The closest I can think of is magical creatures that are kind of hauntish, but not enough to be taken for one.
For example, in Godsmouth Heresy
For creating future non-haunt events, it could be done in the right situations when tied to a haunt. Like having a haunt happen, then shortly afterwards have a canyon or crack in the cave wall that wind literally wails through. With enough set-up, you could get a "Sweet Sarenrae, it's a haunt! Run!" event happening.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Part of it becomes the situation involved. I've only gotten to play in 3 scenarios with haunts in them, and in all 3 cases it was already a spooky place: a haunted mansion, a ruined castle, an ancient and forgotten temple - and when the haunt began to manifest, even without the know (religion), when I've made my perception, it's been noticably eeiry: The wind begins to howl, the temperature quickly drops, a ghostly moan echoes, translucent figures begin to dance, etc. So for the most part, determining between a haunt and an encounter has been relatively easy when you have a descriptive GM.
Having GM'd a 4th scenario with a haunt in it (Temple), I can see where that one is more muted than others in its manifestation. I've described it as
It would be interesting to see an Illusionist who tries to make a house seem haunted just to try and spook the players into running away ... Since that's becoming the strategy
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I've run haunts many times, and it's almost always been a tense, spooky encounter. There is the perception check (which someone usually makes) to notice the haunt, and that can be used to create a lot of tension (for example the knife moving on its own in Temple).
The weak point, like the OP said, is that metagamers tend to run for it when initiative is rolled without immediate reason, which is not something that happens often without a haunt. Invisible opponents and ambushes might be a valid reason to have players roll initiative early.
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"It's a Haunt?! Run!"
I've seen this advice a lot lately on other haunt threads, and I'm wanting to address something.
What do you do if it isn't a Haunt? I mean let's consider some PFS examples. I'll use First Steps part 1, as it's often the first scenario any PC (and maybe player) will see in PFS.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
did I get the reactions correct?
Haunts should be creepy. The way they work now they don't have time for that. Players are dead often before they know what's happening.
the point of this thread has me completely baffled. if players are assuming a haunt every time they have to make a perception check and/or initiative check, then there's a problem with their assumptions, not haunts.
and in the first case you mentioned, it might mean that they aren't paying attention
honestly, if they want to run from encounters, haunts or otherwise, let them. they'll find pretty quick that they'll have a pretty low success rate for scenarios.
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the point of this thread has me completely baffled. if players are assuming a haunt every time they have to make a perception check and/or initiative check, then there's a problem with their assumptions, not haunts.
and in the first case you mentioned, it might mean that they aren't paying attention ** spoiler omitted **
honestly, if they want to run from encounters, haunts or otherwise, let them. they'll find pretty quick that they'll have a pretty low success rate for scenarios.
I think the point of the thread is: What effect are haunts having on non-haunt encounters, specifically the ones that start with no clearly defined enemy (like haunts do)? Are there any non-haunt encounters being mistaken for haunts? How did they happen and what did the players do?
IE: A knife on a table bouncing around can be caused by an invisible monster like an imp manipulating it, a hidden character with mage hand or thread, an illusion being concentrated on, or a fly having a dancing knife. Any of these could have made the knife appear to be haunted... did they? Are there any such encounters?
Even more interesting is what inspiration could be drawn from such questioning. I foresee Mystery, Inc. style adventure coming soon, prepare to pepper it with "Jinkies!", "Jeepers!", and "My glasses! I can't see without my glasses!" Er, maybe not the last one... Maybe.
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I agree that Haunts, in general, tend to be implemented fairly poorly in PFS scenarios - the exception to this is Haunting of Hinojai, which I feel is actually quite excellent in this regard. The haunts in the Carrion Crown AP are also quite good. However, when your average haunt consists of 'you hear something strange' and then 'you take massive damage because you weren't paranoid enough', it raises a couple eyebrows.
My reasoning for this is that we're playing Pathfinder, not Call of Cthulhu. Both are great games in their own right, but in Pathfinder the PCs are supposed to be documenting strange sounds or appearances, not running away because they fear being blasted with Ice Storm, possessed to jump off a cliff, or even CDG themselves.
The best haunts are ones that players can puzzle through; they have a solution, one which puts the haunt to rest or at least makes it dormant so they can proceed. I have seen very little of this in PFS, and in my experience haunts tend to be more of a one-shot-wonder which hurts the PCs a LOT if they don't run or otherwise have a way to avoid the haunt. This is unfortunate, because the best part of a haunt is finding out why it exists, which can't be done when the game hugely incentivizes running or channeling positive before the haunt can go off, and thus never gives the players a chance to figure it out.
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In my experience, the players don't like haunts. There is just no good way to get rid of one before it acts, and it is something that only a very limited subset of players can deal with. In addition, the rules are a bit confusing, and every scenario seems to have its haunt act differently. Honestly, I'd be fine if I didn't really see haunts anymore in PFS unless they get a massive rules update or clarification.
I agree that Haunts, in general, tend to be implemented fairly poorly in PFS scenarios - the exception to this is Haunting of Hinojai, which I feel is actually quite excellent in this regard. The haunts in the Carrion Crown AP are also quite good. However, when your average haunt consists of 'you hear something strange' and then 'you take massive damage because you weren't paranoid enough', it raises a couple eyebrows.
My reasoning for this is that we're playing Pathfinder, not Call of Cthulhu. Both are great games in their own right, but in Pathfinder the PCs are supposed to be documenting strange sounds or appearances, not running away because they fear being blasted with Ice Storm, possessed to jump off a cliff, or even CDG themselves.
The best haunts are ones that players can puzzle through; they have a solution, one which puts the haunt to rest or at least makes it dormant so they can proceed. I have seen very little of this in PFS, and in my experience haunts tend to be more of a one-shot-wonder which hurts the PCs a LOT if they don't run or otherwise have a way to avoid the haunt. This is unfortunate, because the best part of a haunt is finding out why it exists, which can't be done when the game hugely incentivizes running or channeling positive before the haunt can go off, and thus never gives the players a chance to figure it out.
Yes! My thoughts exactly!
In the future I would like to see more persistent haunts. Persistent haunts give the players time to figure out what is going on.
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But this thread should be about Haunts that aren't...
Does anyone else know any encounters that could look like a Haunt, and get the PCs to react as if they are encountering a Haunt, but are actually something else entirely?
Yes, I know of such an encounter, but I have never seen anyone think it was a haunt, yet.
Of course, on the other side, the scenario is so old, no one thinks about haunts because they hadn't seen any use at that time, yet.
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I think on of the most under utilized items in all of PFS play is the Haunt Siphon. I know if I was a scouting rogue or the like I would have one out in my hand.
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It's out of the Pathfinder Adventure Path #43: The Haunting of Harrowstone it is also a bit more useful than just haunts....
If you read this Link
As for haunt siphons... they inflict 3d6 points of positive energy damage. They ABSOLUTELY would work against any sort of undead. In fact, they're in there partially becasue the last few boss monsters are pretty tough, and having a touch attack that deals 3d6 damage even to incorporeal foes is a way to even the fight up a bit.
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wow... not sure if I would want to try to use it against another undead - I think most judges would nix it and put me on their suspect list if I tried to use it. Even with a board ruling from JJ on it.
That's why there are rules, judges aren't there to ruin your day and put you on a suspect list for using a neat piece of equipment out of the legal book you purchased.
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wow... not sure if I would want to try to use it against another undead - I think most judges would nix it and put me on their suspect list if I tried to use it. Even with a board ruling from JJ on it.
Your words above. The judge WOULD be against me and the judge WOULD put me on a suspect list.
That's adversarial. The judge is against me. The judge will then watch me.