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+10 vs DC 25 probably takes you from needing a 20 to escape to needing a 15, which mulltiplies your escape chance by x6,
Don't forget armor check penalties. I think the cleric was wearing some fairly heavy stuff (breastplate at the least). I don't know the exact numbers but I think the cleric rolled something like an 18 and still didn't make it out.
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Don't forget armor check penalties. I think the cleric was wearing some fairly heavy stuff (breastplate at the least). I don't know the exact numbers but I think the cleric rolled something like an 18 and still didn't make it out.
+10 vs DC 25 probably takes you from needing a 20 to escape to needing a 15, which mulltiplies your escape chance by x6,
Heh, yeah. At that point, with such a big penalty to Escape Artist, I'd say the cleric is responsible for providing her own way out or just has to suck up being grappled. That cleric owed it to herself to have an oil of grease or something.
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So the moral of this story is that when I run this on Saturday, I should use my GM screen so I can have some limited control on not tkp'ing the PC's?I ran the table for bdk86 and friends this weekend. I thought I was going to get a TPK, honestly.
** spoiler omitted **
It could have easily gone badly, and it did result in the crossbowman dying, but some smart tactical play on the player's part wound up squeezing out a victory. However, their strategic play wasn't the best, which is why they wound up between a rock and a hard place in the end. Part of that was party makeup - no one with trapfinding, for example.
I don't like the idea of hiding rolls behind a screen -- the relief and elation when you survive a genuinely tough fight is cheapened, IMO, if I think the GM is cheating in the players' favor....
Totally agree on rolling in front of the screen and only use mine for quick reference for DC's now. I actually can't wait to run this scenario again, I learned a LOT from the first pass.
First things first, the Golems NEED to fly in the greenhouse, without that they aren't much of a threat and are dropped to easy. I can only assume it's worse at the high tier.
Second, the fight in the office seems arbitrarily nerfed. The primary target (black's simulacrum) can't actually do ANYTHING in the fight and his presence makes the fight easier since the golem can't use it's best attack. Next time I'm going to need to get him into the actual fight instead of standing behind the bar. The sooner he dies the more effective his minions will become.
Third, The dolls need to just be creepier. Actually attacking with them is pointless but if you just get the right comments and visuals I can see this event just giving the party the chills.
Finally, Black needs to let the party get closer before unleashing his AoE spells. If the party gets grabbed at the door then they are out of range of the syringes and the goo tanks (plus the players will be bored and frustrated sitting at the front door all fight).
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Response to Mathwei's spoiler tag is spoilered!
The primary target (black's simulacrum) can't actually do ANYTHING in the fight
At the high tier he has access to his spells, so that's just an adjustment due to the tier.
Black needs to let the party get closer before unleashing his AoE spells. If the party gets grabbed at the door then they are out of range of the syringes and the goo tanks
If they're grappled the syringes won't target them anyway (unless they manage to break free, move, and get grappled again). Frankly, I think this is by design. The syringes are *nasty*, and by dropping the AoEs on the party before they get close enough for those to work it alleviates some of the terrain-based balance problems. Unless the PCs do something to completely invalidate his tactics (like a Dim. Door right up to him in the first round) you should run with the tactics as written.
I really think the earlier fights are intentionally easier due to the very challenging nature of the last fight.
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The problem with Dispel Magic is that it probably won't work, especially in fights like this against a single high-level caster. A level 6 caster needs to roll a 15 to dispel the tentacles in the low tier. A level 6 Wizard can devote half of his highest level slots to Dispel Magic and only has even odds to remove the Black Tentacles that he doesn't know are coming. A level 6 sorcerer/oracle only knows one third level spell, should it really be Dispel? Scrolls have an even lower chance of success.
Witches and Clerics are on somewhat safer ground because clerics can convert and witches were just going to cackle anyway.
A seldom used portion of the dispel magic spell can be used to more easily dispel known spells.
Specifically (section bolded for emphasis)
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.This would mean that a caster of dispel magic would only need to his the DC of the spell level.
Gotta love those rules!
Most GMs I know believe that reference to "DC" to refer to the following, from earlier in the spell:
You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level).
So you should expect table variation if you try to argue the DC for targeted dispel should be 10 + spell level + casting stat mod.
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I wouldn't think there would need to be much table variation if you had the text for Dispel Magic ready and open for reference.So you should expect table variation if you try to argue the DC for targeted dispel should be 10 + spell level + casting stat mod.
Even though I think it's pretty open and shut like you, I've met reasonable people who are still convinced that it refers to the spell's save DC, even though it never calls out save DC in the text.
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Worthy note. Dominate Person is a Casting Time 1 round spell in Pathfinder.Bwuh. It is!
D'oh! Well, that would have gone differently. I blame it in a bunch of very experienced 3.x players getting caught in yet another small but significant rules change. I wish there were a comprehensive list of them.
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D'oh! Well, that would have gone differently. I blame it in a bunch of very experienced 3.x players getting caught in yet another small but significant rules change. I wish there were a comprehensive list of them.Worthy note. Dominate Person is a Casting Time 1 round spell in Pathfinder.Bwuh. It is!
Not too differently; I think it just wouldn't have dragged out in the same way. My PC would still have been stuck and eventually the Cleric would have to choose between keeping me up and keeping the Fighter doing damage up. There's no guarantee I would have still not been crushed to death before they were able to get to me/get me out of the tentacles.
But yes, a Comprehensive "Things Are Different in Golarion..." sort of document for 3.5 to Pathfinder would be useful.
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Not too differently; I think it just wouldn't have dragged out in the same way. My PC would still have been stuck and eventually the Cleric would have to choose between keeping me up and keeping the Fighter doing damage up. There's no guarantee I would have still not been crushed to death before they were able to get to me/get me out of the tentacles.
Actually...
So, yeah, quite a bit different.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Eh. No worries. If I hadn't had the prestige for a raise/restorations I might argue otherwise, but I did, so yeah.Actually...
** spoiler omitted **
So, yeah, quite a bit different.
Hey, wait! Isn't that an illegal character death d-:
In case it's not obvious, I kid.
Also, to add to Colin's revelation, doesn't the subject get a second saving throw at +2 on the following round when it is told to attack it's friends (as this act would "go against it's nature")?
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He actually got two more saves thanks to two castings of protection from evil -- one from the summoner, and one from the targeted cleric. He failed both rolls, even with the bonus from the spell. Would a fourth roll have allowed him to beat the DC? Maybe. He was rolling terrible all day, though, and it didn't get any better -- he never even hit the cleric with his AoOs (cleric didn't let him get normal attacks in).
BDK's a good sport -- I've known him for about a decade now -- and he knows there was no malicious intent. Yes, I dropped the ball on the spell (and I really should have remembered the extra save, too). On the other hand, there was no one at that table with less than 10 years of experience playing the 3.x ruleset, and we all missed it.
I won't miss it again, though.
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Totally agree on rolling in front of the screen and only use mine for quick reference for DC's now. I actually can't wait to run this scenario again, I learned a LOT from the first pass.** spoiler omitted **...
To address your spoiler: One of the characters at your table was a monk (martial artist)/inquisitor using exploit weakness almost every round for the +2 to attack and ignoring DR and hardness. At a minimum 13 points of damage per hit, it made it seem much easier. That is an atypical build and physical attacks being able to ignore both DR and hardness is not likely to appear at most tables.
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Some great input here about how to play up the overall feel of the mod once you get past the first fight, thanks to everyone.
I played this at Gencon and
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Sadly, when I played the guy with your spoilered item ran away! There's a reason I called the terrain +2 CR ...To address your spoiler: One of the characters at your table was a monk (martial artist)/inquisitor using exploit weakness almost every round for the +2 to attack and ignoring DR and hardness. At a minimum 13 points of damage per hit, it made it seem much easier. That is an atypical build and physical attacks being able to ignore both DR and hardness is not likely to appear at most tables.** spoiler omitted **
Melissa and I were at the same table and yes, the spoilered item actually flew away.
To your point, Will, I meant my attacks ignoring DR and hardness in addition to a party member with that other thing. Imagine the outcome if there had been only the one and it flew away?
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Our party dealt with the last encounter pretty well. We got hit with black tentacles, but the oracle who already had freedom of movement up used liberating command on my bard who used liberating command on another party member. :-)
This was followed up the next round with hitting him with our own black tentacles and an encounter ending cacophonous call.
We also got past stabby mcstabberson by succeeding (for the first time ever) with a bardic fascinate followed up by a few rounds getting a suggestion to sign a confession and turn them self into the authorities (not realizing the 4 workers in the back were part of their crew...).
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Response to Mathwei's spoiler tag is spoilered!
** spoiler omitted **
My bard "saved" the party by essentially terrifying the guy at the end. With Expeditious Retreat and Feather Step up, he got one of the only high initiative rolls of his career and sprinted 80% of the distance to the caster. This must have freaked him out because he dropped the BT on me alone. It nearly killed me, but thanks to a well timed Grease/Gallant Inspiration combo, Herger got loose, downed a CSW potion and helped hack the guy down (after Big Bopper kept him tripped and a pair of Sneaky McStabbersons kept his organs well ventillated).
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The story of this scenarios is good, especially with a great GM. Living dolls creep me out so that was fun and the insulting door was great. The creepy version of Black that wanted to scalp the beautiful hair off the noble at the table was great. As were was the psycho vibe. Good stuff.
It's a tough scenario though if your not playing at your best. To which, I wasn't, and my Gunslinger met his temporary end. I did not expect black tentacles and once it hit the field I knew it was pretty much over. Things could have went completely different if we had not wasted time breaking down the door and had rushed into the room.
Oh well, you get raised and learn.
Contributor
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As I'm running this tomorrow I've been doing some reading on the thread, and I stumbled across this...
A seldom used portion of the dispel magic spell can be used to more easily dispel known spells.Specifically (section bolded for emphasis)
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.This would mean that a caster of dispel magic would only need to his the DC of the spell level.
Gotta love those rules!
I'm not sure how this works for a character grappled by black tentacles.
1 - Do characters with no caster level use that of the potion's creator's minimum (5)?
2 - Do characters drink the potion and then get a caster level check roll?
3 - Dispel Magic says that the DC is 11 + "the spell's caster level". So for the 5-6 subtier, this would be a DC 21 since Black is level 10?
Assuming the answer to all three of those is yes, that's still a difficult (16+) roll to get one character out of black tentacles (since it's a potion it can't affect an area, I believe), unless I'm off somewhere?
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As I'm running this tomorrow I've been doing some reading on the thread, and I stumbled across this...
A seldom used portion of the dispel magic spell can be used to more easily dispel known spells.Specifically (section bolded for emphasis)
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.This would mean that a caster of dispel magic would only need to his the DC of the spell level.
Gotta love those rules!
I'm not sure how this works for a character grappled by black tentacles.
1 - Do characters with no caster level use that of the potion's creator's minimum (5)?
2 - Do characters drink the potion and then get a caster level check roll?
3 - Dispel Magic says that the DC is 11 + "the spell's caster level". So for the 5-6 subtier, this would be a DC 21 since Black is level 10?Assuming the answer to all three of those is yes, that's still a difficult (16+) roll to get one character out of black tentacles (since it's a potion it can't affect an area, I believe), unless I'm off somewhere?
You can't end a tentacle effect by drinking a potion of dispel magic, even if the tentacles are grappling you at the time.
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If you drink a potion, you are the target of the spell. If you drink a potion of dispel magic you are the target of the spell - not the black tentacles.
You can't end a tentacle effect by drinking a potion of dispel magic, even if the tentacles are grappling you at the time.
I guess that's part of why I was confused by the original post about dispel magic potions.
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I guess that's part of why I was confused by the original post about dispel magic potions.If you drink a potion, you are the target of the spell. If you drink a potion of dispel magic you are the target of the spell - not the black tentacles.
You can't end a tentacle effect by drinking a potion of dispel magic, even if the tentacles are grappling you at the time.
That post mentioned an oft-forgotten portion of the spell's description, not a potion.
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That post mentioned an oft-forgotten portion of the spell's description, not a potion.I guess that's part of why I was confused by the original post about dispel magic potions.If you drink a potion, you are the target of the spell. If you drink a potion of dispel magic you are the target of the spell - not the black tentacles.
You can't end a tentacle effect by drinking a potion of dispel magic, even if the tentacles are grappling you at the time.
...glasses fail? aka damn my eyes?
Oy vey, my bad.
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I skipped the Sisters encounter due to time crunch and lack of any capable threat.
it wasn't an encounter that would deplete resources, and the combat would have just sucked up a few minutes of creepiness. If they were at least NE then the creepiness factor would have been backed up by something more serious. as it was Rage was not a good power/alignment for the dolls. =P
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This last week has been a truly crazy one for me between college classes and doing a local con, but I ran this scenario on 11/02/12, as well as on the weekend before Halloween and... Wow. Just wow.
The first group I ran through I had to sorta rush them from the encounter at the Golemworks office to the lab (they had a Sczarni that dealt with the encounter in the shop then they wiped up mooks easily enough), but I had 'em all good and creeped out. It was awesome.
Nearly TPK'd 'em in a boss battle, but due to short time and the fact that the Black couldn't do much more actual damage on his own, and the party was just whittling 'em down, he hit his contingency and they won.
The second party, however...
Not only did I somehow kill the Bardgus (Bard 1, Magus 8) 3 times (character put themself in danger the first 2 times then took a Chain Lightening to the face), but I wiped 'em all on the fight against Black. I wasn't even trying to TPK 'em, but I couldn't legitimately pull punches at the 8-9 tier with a bunch of experienced players, so... ouch.
It was an amazing scenario, well written, and just downright fun, and I think (aside from frustration at the dice and difficulty of the last fight), the players enjoyed the scenario. Man, oh man. Good times.
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about them dolls...
about the tentacles...
also from the Greenhouse Delivery...
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What spell is in Black's ring of counterspells? I put in Dispel Magic and it worked like a charm.
I put in Feeblemind as it is kind of ironic. Dispel Magic is a good idea that makes him even tougher.
Other thoughts:
A few folk seem to forget about the Shield spell and that it blocks magic missiles (including me first time it came up in this scenario).
Also need to fully understand Mirror Image and how it isn't effective against or affected by non-attack-roll-spells or effects. Such as Magic Missile or Chain Lightning.
I would save the bonded item for contingency use unless you want to risk a TPK.
The golems at the start can be a bit of a damp squib if you have them make strength checks to get out. Just have them smash their way out.
Thanks to Drogon for the door insults, they went down a treat.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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What spell is in Black's ring of counterspells? I put in Dispel Magic and it worked like a charm.I put in Feeblemind as it is kind of ironic. Dispel Magic is a good idea that makes him even tougher.
Also remember that he begins scrying on the PCs the moment they enter his office (or kill his simulacrum? - I can't remember which action makes him aware, but it's early on). That scrying will give him insight into what he needs to put into the ring.
Thanks to Drogon for the door insults, they went down a treat.
You're welcome. Glad they were of use to someone (-:
Edit: Awesome ideas, Shea. I'm going to remember the doll room one, for sure.
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I was waiting for that report...
Uh, anyhow, I'm going to be running this here scenario for both tiers and some questions have sprung up.
1. It says that the BBEG uses scrying magic to spy on the PCs. Is this an actual scrying spell or just a narrative thing? If the former, the target PC gets a bonus of +10 to their save(unfamiliar subject, no ties to the scryer) making the scrying a wasted effort. Anybody willing to share how they've run this?
2. In the final area, how do the cylinders, pipes and the big chamber affect line of sight, possible cover, etc? The syringes are bolted to the ceiling so they should be able to target anyone approaching the back of the room without problem, unless the birthing chamber reaches all the way to the ceiling, but what about the BBEG? Do the structures grant him cover? Does the chamber block lightning bolts?
Thanks in advance.
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Alright that really helps. A couple of minor things:
The scenario states that he scries on the PC's when they spend time (90 minutes or so) inside his office at the Golemworks (B1). I picked a scrying target at random and prerolled their Will save(natural 1!) using an IRC bot on our community channel just in case, but I'd like to know whether or not we are supposed to use the actual spell in that encounter.
On the syringes, yeah I expect they won't come to play much at all. Their range starts at the D3 marker and I epect most of the PC's will be tied down with tentacles and red herrings.
Cheers.
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Alright that really helps. A couple of minor things:
The scenario states that he scries on the PC's when they spend time (90 minutes or so) inside his office at the Golemworks (B1). I picked a scrying target at random and prerolled their Will save(natural 1!) using an IRC bot on our community channel just in case, but I'd like to know whether or not we are supposed to use the actual spell in that encounter.
On the syringes, yeah I expect they won't come to play much at all. Their range starts at the D3 marker and I epect most of the PC's will be tied down with tentacles and red herrings.
Cheers.
He doesn't have to scry on any of the PC's so they won't get saves vs it. Simply have him scry on one of his animated chairs making it a pretty much automatic success. As for the syringes those are mostly there to interfere and mangle anyone who tries to get close to him.