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I've read through all of Slumbering Tsar and we've had two sessions so far with no deaths. (Maybe I'm running it wrong. ;) )
Seriously, though, your GM needs to know your players and warn them (as I did) that if you think every encounter is balanced to the supposed PC level, you will die real fast. My players (so far) have avoided areas that appear deadly and know that running is a very good option.
On the other hand, if you guys are as far along as the room you mentioned, you've progressed quite far! What level is your party currently? (And how many PCs are there?)
I have been trying to coach my group in that regard. We will be starting Rappan Athuk as soon as it is available and while I do not intend to pull punches, I don't want a weekly kill fest.
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Heh, that's not the module, that's your GM.
I think this needs repeating.
This isn't a 1st Edition thing, although many of the DMs that do it started there.
This is a DM playstyle, and it is up to you to find a DM that matches your playstyle.
You can be a killer DM in any edition.
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While this has nothing to do with Slumbering Tsar, I did have the issue of explaining to my group 3 times last night that I will be mixing in encounters that are far higher EL than the party, so they should considering running away occasionally.
They nodded. It's like they understood. Then a dire tiger killed the barbarian (though he had one hero point left so it saved him from true death).
My players have no tactical sense to speak of.
Heh, that's not the module, that's your GM.
Edit: To further explain - I believe that your DM gave out a bag of holding as treasure because of this room. It's actually a very interesting encounter where one player get trapped in the portable hole until they can be freed by their comrades (and there is fight involved in doing this).
I'll also bet that most of the other "no save and die" situations were orchestrated by your GM and not the adventure itself.
I took note of that one and smiled. Yes you could have a player that happened to have a bag of holding and BOOM..but in a sense that IS the risk of having a bag of holding, isn't it? Especially is you have a party that has gone out of their way to buy/create a bunch of the things. As a player I would laugh at this simply because it IS such a rare death, and epic in its own way. Now a DM that sat and gave out bags of holding knowing it was there..yeah they are offing characters for entertainment value.
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While this has nothing to do with Slumbering Tsar, I did have the issue of explaining to my group 3 times last night that I will be mixing in encounters that are far higher EL than the party, so they should considering running away occasionally.
They nodded. It's like they understood. Then a dire tiger killed the barbarian (though he had one hero point left so it saved him from true death).
My players have no tactical sense to speak of.
I have done this as well, usually not in a combat way. The players may meet an NPC or intelligent monster (read dragon, giant, etc) where they have to carefully role play..a nice mix of respect and fear is good. It is clear combat is not an option, and that acting stupidly will be fatal. I have had players good at it..and a few that keep extra character sheets on hand because they can't *quite* figure out that not everything in the world is scaled to their level. That is the risk of creating a living world.
I welcome the challenge too, but new characters every game session because "I must do this action, because the dm says i have to and i always die because of it" isnt fun. There is a room that our partys paladin walked into and dead. We didnt even get an explanation til a few days later. Bag of holding on the paladin and he walked into a room that was a portable hole. If that doesn't screm f*** you! I don't know what does. Why would anyone not be very upset. Why would you want to play something so unplayable. Why even name your character. Just call him #8.
I think you and I played a different game for the early editions. There wasn't rules for everything, so you had a lot of choice. For instance, I found there was very little, you must do this action, you could always try and avoid or come up with a plan to get ahead. The dm might squash it, but I didn't lose that many characters in earlier dnd.
While this has nothing to do with Slumbering Tsar, I did have the issue of explaining to my group 3 times last night that I will be mixing in encounters that are far higher EL than the party, so they should considering running away occasionally.
They nodded. It's like they understood. Then a dire tiger killed the barbarian (though he had one hero point left so it saved him from true death).
My players have no tactical sense to speak of.
Mmmm mm. Some don't understand skirmishing to victory, fighting defensively, taking cover or how a high speed can be one of the strongest abilities in the game.
I have done this as well, usually not in a combat way. The players may meet an NPC or intelligent monster (read dragon, giant, etc) where they have to carefully role play..a nice mix of respect and fear is good. It is clear combat is not an option, and that acting stupidly will be fatal. I have had players good at it..and a few that keep extra character sheets on hand because they can't *quite* figure out that not everything in the world is scaled to their level. That is the risk of creating a living world.While this has nothing to do with Slumbering Tsar, I did have the issue of explaining to my group 3 times last night that I will be mixing in encounters that are far higher EL than the party, so they should considering running away occasionally.
They nodded. It's like they understood. Then a dire tiger killed the barbarian (though he had one hero point left so it saved him from true death).
My players have no tactical sense to speak of.
Sounds good! Yep, I've thrown this in as well.
Well, that room with the portable hole? You're supposed to be 12-14th level, maybe higher. That tower is basically the 'final dungeon' of the city itself, before you do the tower.
Care to tell me WHY someone in the party doesn't have Detect Magic/Arcane Sight up at all times and could tell the whole 'room' radiated magic?
Why the party didn't send in a summoned monster to trigger the obvious trap? Or an Unseen Servant?
It was a tactical mistake on the party's part. Paladins being immune to fear should not mean they are foolhardy.
And really, where was the SPot/Search check by the party's rogue to tell everyone something was really off about the whole thing? (trapfinding).
==Aelryinth
Mmmm living worlds.
10-foot poles are for amateurs.
Real adventuring poles go to 11 feet!
Spinal Tap reference? lol
Eh, characters die all the time in all kinds of games. Some people enjoy traps that are a lot more deadly. After all what's the point of a trap that only kind of wounds a person? Suppose there is something to be said for traps that capture people mostly intact...
Maybe you all need to just be a bit more cautious and change your way of playing a bit?
No trap should ever be 100% effective either. I'm sure they are being as cautious as possible, but with no-save deathtraps, it's only a matter of time before you fall into one.
A lot of times with kobolds you can just say they aren't heavy enough to set off their own little pit traps and such. But I get what you're saying.
Spinal Tap reference? lol10-foot poles are for amateurs.
Real adventuring poles go to 11 feet!
Of course.
We didnt even get an explanation til a few days later.
That's simply not true. I explained at the very moment it happened that a portable hole was stretched across the doorway, and that since the paladin had a handy haversack (which the description specifically says acts like a bag of holding), a rift to the Astral Plane was torn in that place. Since the paladin was within the portable hole, he was sucked into the void and lost forever - just like the description of the portable hole states. There was no delay on explaining this.
Heh, that's not the module, that's your GM.
Edit: To further explain - I believe that your DM gave out a bag of holding as treasure because of this room. It's actually a very interesting encounter where one player get trapped in the portable hole until they can be freed by their comrades (and there is fight involved in doing this).
I'll also bet that most of the other "no save and die" situations were orchestrated by your GM and not the adventure itself.
This is a product from your company, and you're clearly mistaken. Quoting directly from the Slumbering Tsar, page 297: "Remember the effects if anyone with a bag of holding enters the portable hole." Also, there are no less than two bags of holding held by creatures the party will almost definitely encounter before this location. My party was actually unable to claim the treasure of these two creatures when defeating them. The paladin had a handy haversack purchased by the player.
This was the only situation that had no save, just die. The other one that upset the group was the frieze in the Crooked Tower that has you make a few easy Will saves before one very difficult one. Fail that one, and the character is lost without ability to be retrieved except by wish or miracle.
Well, that room with the portable hole? You're supposed to be 12-14th level, maybe higher. That tower is basically the 'final dungeon' of the
city itself, before you do the tower.Care to tell me WHY someone in the party doesn't have Detect Magic/Arcane Sight up at all times and could tell the whole 'room' radiated magic?
And really, where was the SPot/Search check by the party's rogue to tell everyone something was really off about the whole thing? (trapfinding).
The group explored about half the first tier of the city, saw some ravens flying around and roosting back at the Crooked Tower, and beelined for it from them on. They were 11th level.
The Wizard had permanent arcane sight up. She saw an aura of illusion in the room and that the entire room radiated strong conjuration.
The group has no rogue.
Because the line is in there to remind GMs of the rules doesn't mean that it was written to be a save-or-die encounter. In fact, the rest of the encounter contra-indicates that course of action.
I do stand corrected on the acquisition of a bag of holding, however.
And I was also addressing the accusation of the module have numerous save or die situations which, if what the player were saying is true, would have been coming from the GM, not the module.
I'm sorry if you were mis-characterized and the situations were blown out of proportion.
This thread is making me want to run Slumbering Tsar again so bad.
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The group has no rogue.
Oh, dear.
They aren't/weren't gonna get much further anyway, then. :)
(OK, they COULD do it without a rogue, but I wouldn't want to!)
I have done this as well, usually not in a combat way. The players may meet an NPC or intelligent monster (read dragon, giant, etc) where they have to carefully role play..a nice mix of respect and fear is good. It is clear combat is not an option, and that acting stupidly will be fatal. I have had players good at it..and a few that keep extra character sheets on hand because they can't *quite* figure out that not everything in the world is scaled to their level. That is the risk of creating a living world.The actual risk of creating a living world is that you'll just get killed by running into something you can't avoid, escape or fight.
After all, someone has to be in the little village when the ancient dragon burns it to the ground, right?Or do you carefully make sure that every encounter not scaled to their level has warning flags around it so they can avoid if if they choose?
Which is how most do it, but it makes the boasts about this style of play a little hollow.
One would think meeting an obviously above their pay grade dragon would be warning enough. There was also the fact that if they tried to fight..it would have been what they deserved. I try to kill off the idea that "well we are heroes so we can smart mouth everything" idea pretty early. Unless you can kill said dragon..don't be stupid enough to sass it.
More broadly, if I use something way over their heads, its usually clear enough without signposts. My job, so to speak, in that case is to not put them into a situation that they can't talk their way out of or escape from..but it's up to the players to be smart enough to make the right choice.
Death traps have very little place in a "living" world. How many do you see in reality? How many do you see in stories? What kinds?
In reality death traps are placed on roads or in open areas where anyone who knows about them can walk around. When you can't walk around them they're manually triggered to prevent friendly casualties. They're placed in low traffic areas defensively or high traffic areas when used offensively. You mine roads your enemies will travel down, not your own front door. Traps belong where only an enemy would travel. Automatic traps other than pits pretty much did not exist prior to gunpowder. Real world death traps are never resetting.
In stories they're placed in corridors, often where they're unavoidable, and generally where they are avoidable. They usually reset. They're placed defensively in high traffic areas like the front hallway where they inconvenience and endanger Kobolds every day. Last time I checked kobolds don't have an int penalty. Neither do goblins or any of the other races commonly associated with traps.
In a "living" world there should be no dungeon traps that aren't manually operated by the defenders.
I think you misunderstand the term living world. It simply means that not everything the players meet is something they can kill. In the forest lives an ancient green dragon that needs some spell components. It lands in the road before the party to parly. I have actually had players charge it..and get promptly destroyed..and be shocked. Living world means that not only are the players not the biggest fish in the area at the time..but the world changes and evolves around them in ways that have nothing to do with them, unless they stick their nose into it.
Or another way..video games try to keep characters in areas use difficulty equals the players level. If you venture past that you get hosed. And often times in RPGs you see the same thing..things higher level are off camera, so to speak, except for a few major NPCS, perhaps. I run my games more like the real world; there ARE tigers in the forest, and you had best think before you step. Now I don't run combat like that...unless they attack something clearly out of their league (like the dragon above), the combats are as balanced as any other adventure to the players level.
I think he means the right choice is not to fight the dragon if you're having trouble with orcs still for example.
I think he means the right choice is not to fight the dragon if you're having trouble with orcs still for example.
Exactly. I don't do such things at random, and I do warn players at the start of a new game. If you think I am going to save you because you charge in to attack in a situation like that, when you should have known at first glance it was not an option..then you are sadly mistaken. (In the stated case the dragon was both fairly tolerant and lazy; It was not a case of one misspoken word setting it off. Everything it sent them to do was well within their level)
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I think he means the right choice is not to fight the dragon if you're having trouble with orcs still for example.
No, the right choice is to do what your character would do. If your halfling rogue has a Napolean complex, it's perfectly in character for him to ask the ogre 'wanna make something of it?' and get pasted. Replace ogre with dragon or whatever superior foe you like.
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I think he means the right choice is not to fight the dragon if you're having trouble with orcs still for example.No, the right choice is to do what your character would do. If your halfling rogue has a Napolean complex, it's perfectly in character for him to ask the ogre 'wanna make something of it?' and get pasted. Replace ogre with dragon or whatever superior foe you like.
If you are going to play a character like that then you had best be prepared to back it up with brilliant back up plans. It goes back to a more living, realistic world though. How many people in the real world could expect to talk to a bouncer or biker gang like that? Admittedly a biker gang is less likely to EAT you for it..but its the same concept. Roleplaying does not have to equal stupid...
@TOZ: OK I see where you're going with that. Seems like that could lead to good times and hilarity. Of course hopefully someone with that character concept is aware of the survivability concerns that come with it, and there shouldn't be any hurt feelings over the likely consequences of having such a mindset in an untamed world of magical monsters.
Also assuming everything you meet is "killable" takes a lot of the point out of the game. I would like to think a player would prefer the thrill and "magic" of talking to a dragon, the kill another group of orcs. They can play WoW for that.
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If you are going to play a character like that then you had best be prepared to back it up with brilliant back up plans.
No, you best be prepared for the consequences. Nothing says your character can't have a death wish, or be a foolhardy bravo, only that when his actions get him killed you better not cry about the choices you made in his personality.
@TOZ: OK I see where you're going with that. Seems like that could lead to good times and hilarity.
Oh, I'll remember Peck's misadventures for a long long time. But the real point is that there are many answers, and the right answer depends on the situation.
To be fair, people who enjoy scripted games of linear CR appropriate challenges are still having a completely different experience in a table top rpg then you would get playing WoW. Not that theirs anything wrong with WoW either.
Sounds like you have an open minded group as well, some groups would be annoyed with PC antics that place them in peril. I think it would be a blast.
Of course if you have a personality trait like that in your character concept, you don't have to be 100% bound to it at all times. You might decide this awe inspiring dragon is enough reason to stand down for once.
I think he means the right choice is not to fight the dragon if you're having trouble with orcs still for example.No, the right choice is to do what your character would do. If your halfling rogue has a Napolean complex, it's perfectly in character for him to ask the ogre 'wanna make something of it?' and get pasted. Replace ogre with dragon or whatever superior foe you like.
Did Napoleon pick hand-to-hand fights with ogres? Wow. I never knew.
There is having a complex, and then there is playing your wisdom score.
Did Napoleon pick hand-to-hand fights with ogres? Wow. I never knew.
Figuratively? Yes. And then beat them upside the head.
I would direct you to the rather fascinating battle at Austerlitz.
Mind am blown?
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All I can say is Slumbering Tsar. How many meaningless deaths have to occur until the 1st edition feel is done away with. We have lost ten characters to no save death traps. WTF this is so dumb and not fun at all. Does anyone else like being arbitrarily killed with no way to really do anything about it. Let me know.
I prefer to play Hard Mode with no cheats enabled. If the GM is not trying his best within the rules to kill me the game just breaks down to "the players win and we will just run through some encounters while already knowing the outcome".
Pathfinder is beginner mode IMO (with cheat codes).
My first gaming experience was 1979 at 7 years old when my father killed off my half elf ranger in module T-1 Village of Hommlet. So hardcore DnD is what I prefer and am used to.
Did Napoleon pick hand-to-hand fights with ogres? Wow. I never knew.
Figuratively? Yes. And then beat them upside the head.
I would direct you to the rather fascinating battle at Austerlitz.
Mind am blown?
No, he did not fight ogres in hand-to-hand as a halfling. Jeez, people will try and argue anything. I've read up on Napoleon (years ago now) and it was quite impressive. Add armies and the power differential changes quite a lot, it doesn't become one foolish halfling versus a far more combat effective and larger monster.
Figuratively please consider when your "example" doesn't apply to what is being discussed.
We didnt even get an explanation til a few days later.That's simply not true. I explained at the very moment it happened that a portable hole was stretched across the doorway, and that since the paladin had a handy haversack (which the description specifically says acts like a bag of holding), a rift to the Astral Plane was torn in that place. Since the paladin was within the portable hole, he was sucked into the void and lost forever - just like the description of the portable hole states. There was no delay on explaining this.
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I have no issue with the way you ran that event alientude...
See now in my day of playing 1e we had a liberal interpretation of the rules. I would read this effect to be that the paladin got sucked into the astral plane ( "the void" ) and is floating there lost forever ....until he is found. This seems like a great opportunity for a side adventure/ campaign ( at 11th level I recommend one of the giyhyanki ones in dungeon magazine - maybe that awesome one set in the giyhyanki city) If the pcs had the ability to scry they could search for their lost companion, then learn plane shift or get a scroll of limited wish or greater teleport or whatever and go find him.
If the party doesn't bother to look for him then instead next time someone dies just have him turn up with a friendly astral deva ( ( do they still exist?) who has quested him to end the threat of Slumbering Tsar - then he becomes the replacement character. If two people die, maybe the deva can join the party as well.
ST saga is an epic scale dungeon in all ways, I agree cheap tawdry death ain't much fun but it can be.
My issue with ST is I will never have the time to run it or play in it ( sigh)
To the OP: I gotta agree with the majority here. 1st edition "feel" can be tough. Very tough. But so can GMs. Many times it's a combination of the two. However, it can also be player tactics. I can't speak for the rest of your experience since only one example has been posted and I still haven't picked up my copy of Slumbering Tsar from my FLGS, but I can look at the one example you have given.
If your party magic-user noticed the room radiated Illusion and Strong Conjuration then the next step should have been "analyzing/identifying" if possible (and it should be). If said magic-user chooses not to than it's on his head when someone gets hit by a magic trap. If he does try to figure out what's going on and the Paladin then chooses not to wait but instead march "boldly" ahead then it's his own fault. Choosing to be overly-cautious in the Slumbering Tsar Saga is not really meta-gaming once the party has realized just how lethal the local region/fortresses/dungeons are. I would imagine, from what I hear (and will soon read) that the party would come to this realization in-game pretty early on.
As for the whole "different playstyles" discussion, I agree that it can be tricky to come to terms with different expectations. But such expectations are something that can (and should) be managed at the beginning of a campaign.
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Figuratively please consider when your "example" doesn't apply to what is being discussed.
Then if you can't see the obvious similie, I can only offer you this:
"I pity tha fool who don't know how to spot a similie and make sense of it"
Gigantic "dungeons" (eg those that exist only for there to be a treasure chest at the end) and elaborate death traps annoy me mostly because I find myself thinking "why would anyone bother to make something like this". There's not any logical reason for most "traps" to exist, when if you didn't want someone to go in, you could have hid it better, put more doors and locks, or make it inaccessible. Oh man, there's a super evil artifact that will end the world if anyone finds it; let's make a super elaborate trapped maze instead of enchanting against divination the hell out of a man made cave and then just magically collapsing the tunnels behind us.
On a side note, it annoys me even more when you end up in someone's private residence and find that they have trapped doors and boxes and such. It makes me wonder how many children die accidental deaths from them.
On a side note, it annoys me even more when you end up in someone's private residence and find that they have trapped doors and boxes and such. It makes me wonder how many children die accidental deaths from them.
What like loaded firearms, barbed wire, huge crazy dogs, broken glass on walls etc like we do these days?
What like loaded firearms, barbed wire, huge crazy dogs, broken glass on walls etc like we do these days?On a side note, it annoys me even more when you end up in someone's private residence and find that they have trapped doors and boxes and such. It makes me wonder how many children die accidental deaths from them.
Who puts broken glass on their walls and barbed wire in their house? Also don't personally see many people with vicious dogs to attack intruders (more like they like dogs). As for loaded firearms, it doesn't really fit into the trap category unless you mean setting up a shotgun trap on your door in the morning when you leave for work, which I agree if equally stupid.
Who puts broken glass on their walls and barbed wire in their house? Also don't personally see many people with vicious dogs to attack intruders (more like they like dogs). As for loaded firearms, it doesn't really fit into the trap category unless you mean setting up a shotgun trap on your door in the morning when you leave for work, which I agree if equally stupid.
Glassy Wall topping? Plenty of people, apparently..
Dogs are usually there to bite intruders, yet most dog bites are from the family pet.
A trap the kids know about is little different from a loaded gun in a drawer, you tell them about it, but theres the risk of curiosity.
It's all fairly similar really.
Lets also consider the difference of the ages; the Ye Olde Homestead has no modern security alarm, they don't have insurance, and a burglar could mean ruin.
also don't underestimate the power of agressive retreat. Running from battles is okay for most classes (something I've seen many players refuse to do).
also don't underestimate the power of agressive retreat. Running from battles is okay for most classes (something I've seen many players refuse to do).
A lot of players never consider the staggered retreat, where a high AC character with decent AoO capability lags behind and smacks the creature if it tries to get by him and go for squishier characters.
You can whittle down a lot of creatures and cause them to flee with that technique.
My players once kited an creature that was EL+4 to death and it barely got to hit them. I stupidly made the fight in a very open area.
It's about creating situations where the enemy is punished for chasing.
A properly made fighter should have the feats and abilities to absolutely dominate movement on the battlefield.
As such, he should be able to harass the creature as the PCs do a staggered retreat until the enemy either gives up or has become damaged enough for the rest of the party to re-engage.
And, in reality, they SHOULD be prepared to leave the injured or slow one behind.
It's the difference between one guy rolling a new character and four guys rolling new characters. Not to mention the possibility of recovering the body in some situations to be ressurected if the PCs can afford it and are in a settlement large enough to have that kind of spellcasting.
PCs die, especially in living worlds.
Hell, I grew up DMing Dark Sun. The setting that required you to roll 4 characters due to the high chance of PC death.
What like loaded firearms, barbed wire, huge crazy dogs, broken glass on walls etc like we do these days?On a side note, it annoys me even more when you end up in someone's private residence and find that they have trapped doors and boxes and such. It makes me wonder how many children die accidental deaths from them.
The terrace house I rented in Erko had glass shards and rusty nails mortared into the common wall that backed on to the dunny cart lane. That plus the chin high asthma weed that choked up the back lane made accessing our house by the back very difficult.
There is the news story about some poor veteran suffering PTSD getting super paranoid booby trapping his house and accidentally killing himself on the live electrical wire trap he forgot that he he'd rigged.