Opportunist (Advanced Rogue Talent)

[Oladon]

Opportunist:

Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

I've checked this forum, but can't find a definitive ruling on what constitutes "another character." It seems that generally the term "creature" is used if the skill does not discriminate between enemies and allies, but another non-official post indicated that it's understood to be any creature (including the target).

I'm mainly wondering for the sake of things like Confusion, where the opponent can end up hitting himself. (Redirect Attack is another good question, as brought up in the aforementioned post, but I won't be getting that for a few levels.)

Thoughts, anyone?

[Brox RedGloves]

"Another Character" is commonly understood to be referring to another player character (talk to your DM if you wish to include friendly NPC's...)

[VRMH]

Brox RedGloves wrote:

"Another Character" is commonly understood to be referring to another player character (talk to your DM if you wish to include friendly NPC's...)

Why wouldn't it include confused allies of the target? Or if you're really in a mess: a third party combatant? I'd say: a character is a game character. Allies of the PC, summoned critters, innocent bystanders, animated furniture... anything that attacked the target qualifies - provided the other requirements are met too, of course.

It's just one attack against a mark that's already in combat anyway. Nothing game-breaking will occur by letting Rogues be Rogues.

[Oladon]

That was my other thought, VRMH; additionally, I (in my admittedly limited experience) haven't seen another rule which applies to or includes -only- PCs in its affects/requirements. Allies, yes... not just PCs, though.

Hence my confusion.

[Buri]

The closest entry in the common terms section of Chapter is the following:

Quote:

Player Character (Character, PC): These are the characters portrayed by the players.

[Oladon]

Nods, Buri, I saw that on d20pfsrd.com but couldn't find a Paizo source; but again, I'm not aware of any other skills/spells which are based on PC/NPC status.

[Buri]

It's in the PRD here. Also, while there may not be another skill or spell that works this way, doesn't mean it can't work this way. The literal view on the rule says it can only be used with player characters as the term 'character' is applies to PCs. If Paizo had intended for a broader interpretation it would have used the word 'creature' instead which has an established definition.

[Happler]

Buri wrote:

It's in the PRD here. Also, while there may not be another skill or spell that works this way, doesn't mean it can't work this way. The literal view on the rule says it can only be used with player characters as the term 'character' is applies to PCs. If Paizo had intended for a broader interpretation it would have used the word 'creature' instead which has an established definition.

that definition of "Character" messes with the definition of NPC from the same page:

Quote:

Nonplayer Character (NPC): These are characters controlled by the GM.

Note, it does not say that they are "creatures" controlled by the GM, but "characters".

I do not think that the book is being that fine grained with the word "Character". Without the "Player" or "Non-Player" in front of it, I think that it is exchangeable with "creature" (which encompasses all PC's and NPC's too).

Or are you suggesting that the opportunist could not be used after the party druids animal companion attacked the target (as they are not a "character") .

[Buri]

Except the term 'character' is grouped for definitive purposes with the term Player Character and not Nonplayer Character. Its associated term is NPC.

I'm speaking from a strictly literal view with how Paizo has chosen to group terms within the text.

[Oladon]

Nice find, Happler. That's at least a precedent for the term "character" being used not to refer to only PCs.

Buri wrote:

... while there may not be another skill or spell that works this way, doesn't mean it can't work this way.

Indeed, and I didn't say it can't. But the lack of a precedent, in my opinion, lends some justification to my question.

Edit: Oops, one too many qualifiers up there.

[Happler]

Buri wrote:

Except the term 'character' is grouped for definitive purposes with the term Player Character and not Nonplayer Character. Its associated term is NPC.

So, lets look from that same page:

NPC's thus cannot have levels in a class: (although they can have a class)

LEVEL:

Level: A character's level represents his overall ability and power. There are three types of levels. Class level is the number of levels of a specific class possessed by a character. Character level is the sum of all of the levels possessed by a character in all of his classes. In addition, spells have a level associated with them numbered from 0 to 9. This level indicates the general power of the spell. As a spellcaster gains levels, he learns to cast spells of a higher level.

Only PC's get free saving throws, everything else must use an action:

SAVING THROW:

Saving Throw: When a creature is the subject of a dangerous spell or effect, it often receives a saving throw to mitigate the damage or result. Saving throws are passive, meaning that a character does not need to take an action to make a saving throw—they are made automatically. There are three types of saving throws: Fortitude (used to resist poisons, diseases, and other bodily ailments), Reflex (used to avoid effects that target an entire area, such as fireball), and Will (used to resist mental attacks and spells).

Wait a second, what actions do a non-character get? The below only defines what a "character" gets and does not specify the number of standard, move, etc that a "creature" gets.

Quote:

Turn: In a round, a creature receives one turn, during which it can perform a wide variety of actions. Generally in the course of one turn, a character can perform one standard action, one move action, one swift action, and a number of free actions. Less-common combinations of actions are permissible as well, see Combat for more details.

[Happler]

Buri wrote:

Except the term 'character' is grouped for definitive purposes with the term Player Character and not Nonplayer Character. Its associated term is NPC.

I'm speaking from a strictly literal view with how Paizo has chosen to group terms within the text.

I do not think that it is a definite grouping, only common usage. If it was the only usage, you should be able to read PC in the place for "character" throughout the book with no problems.

Also, checking out the spells sections it states:

Quote:

Creatures and Characters: “Creature” and “character” are used synonymously in the short description.

Buri, by that strict a reading, Non-PC's can never bee caught flat-footed, since per the text, it is reserved for "characters":

Quote:

Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

[Chaosthecold]

For this ability, 'another character' means anyone except the person with opportunist. If you try to say another Player Character then that means that summoned monsters/animal companions/dominated opponents/etc. would not trigger the opportunist.

don't forget Happler, feats and skill points... only characters get those too!

[Buri]

Well, that could actually make sense as NPCs are mainly dealt with in terms of CR and not level. They can have classes, as you said, and levels within those classes can easily be seen in a purely referential stand point to know what their statistics are no different from PC. However, PCs are more often referred to in terms of class and level (e.g. "I'm a level 7 wizard") rather than CR (e.g. "I'm a CR 9 human.").

But, they can have levels:

Quote:

Class: Classes represent chosen professions taken by characters and some other creatures. Classes give a host of bonuses and allow characters to take actions that they otherwise could not, such as casting spells or changing shape. As a creature gains levels in a given class, it gains new, more powerful abilities. Most PCs gain levels in the core classes or prestige classes, since these are the most powerful. Most NPCs gain levels in NPC classes, which are less powerful (see Creating NPCs).

Concerning saves, that is one way to look at the text.

On actions, it again it could make sense as I've seen a couple GMs that have NPCs whose actions do not fit within the normal actions provided to a PC. Thus, they're doing "a wide variety of actions" in a single turn. However, for PCs, turns are defined as you quoted. So, this makes sense.

[Oladon]

Happler wrote:

Also, checking out the spells sections it states:

Quote:

Creatures and Characters: “Creature” and “character” are used synonymously in the short description.

To me, that answers the question. Thankee, Happler.