Scrolls are spell completion, and require the spell to be on your list and your stat and level to be high enough. Wands and staves are spell trigger, which just require the spell to be on your list. Barring a few exceptions which specifically say what they are, every other magic item is either use-activated, command-activated or continuous, all of which work for anyone, even if they don't cast spells.
Basically spell completion items are one use items that Have class restrictions on them which makes them cheaper. Compare to potions which cost as much.
So yes your cleric can make a little ball when crushed that does shield for one minute. But it will be higher cost than a potion. Just realize the item creation rules have a big "dim adjust these prices as you see fit or just say no" written right into the rules.
So decide what you want, have your dim compare it to items that do similar things.
So using my little pellet example, since its basically duplicating a potion but getting past the no personal spells potion rule I might either say no or make it cost like 200gp per pellet.
Scrolls are spell completion, and require the spell to be on your list and your stat and level to be high enough. Wands and staves are spell trigger, which just require the spell to be on your list. Barring a few exceptions which specifically say what they are, every other magic item is either use-activated, command-activated or continuous, all of which work for anyone, even if they don't cast spells.Can I create a wondrous item, use-activated, command-activated or continous, that casts a spell I don't have in my spell list (provided I add 5 to the DC of that item's spellcraft check at creation) ?
Yes.
- Are spell trigger items also spell completion items ?
No, they're two separate things that have no relation to each other.
- Is a magical item also considered a spell trigger item as soon as it allow the user to cast a spell (for example, if a ring allowed me to cast wall of fire 3 times/day) ? Or are spell-trigger items specifically wands and staves ?
No, spell trigger items are specifically wands, staves, and magic items which say that they're spell trigger items. Everything else similar would be command activated.
Basically, if the fighter can use it, it's neither spell trigger nor spell completion.
Spell completion (scroll) and spell trigger (wand/staff) items are not the same thing and they do not directly interact in any way. Something is either on or the other... or neither in the case of a +1 Longsword.
And yes, if you are trying to get around the restrictions of what can and cannot be made... and who can make it. Craft Wondrous Item is your friend. This is the group that makes many of the things that cannot be made anywhere else. But as Mojorat said... making anything that is not already published in a Paizo book is 100% up to the DM if it is allowed and how much it costs.
And to stop another long thread from going out... the magic item table cost chart is a guide to help a DM decide what to price something at in conjunction with the overall usefulness to the game based upon existing items. You cannot make an continues use bow tie of true strike for 2000 GP unless your DM is VERY generous or subject to bribes. ;)
The fighter with Master Craftsman can create a necklace of fireballs without being able to cast spells at all.
Yes, if you are missing a spell needed to make a magic item, you raise the DC by +5.
So taking the fireball as an example. To craft it normally you cast the spell Fireball while making you check and you are fine. If you do not have the spell the DC is harder because your crafter is "winging it" by trying to get the coals really hot and then adding in extra bellows at just the right time to get the same heat and flame effect of Fireball.
(Keep in mind it is magic and a game, so sometimes the rules are a little fast and loose to allow a dwarven fighter to make magic items. It may fit the lore of the race and the RP element the player wants so the rules came up with a way to allow it without being a wizard via a special feat and good skills.)
No, a 3rd level fighter cannot do so. The minimum is 5 ranks. The earliest the Fighter can take Master Craftsman is level 5. Then the earliest he can take a Craft feat is level 7. So, no (straight) fighter will ever have a Craft feat before level 7.
Now, with that said:
Level 7 Fighter is crafting Slippers of Spider Climbing. He does not have the spell spider climb.
He has a few options:
A) he has his buddy wizard provide the spell.
B) He uses a scroll or wand (with UMD) to provide the spell.
C) He increases the DC by +5 because he does not have the spell.
The fighter probably has: 7ranks, +1int, +3trained = +11 Craft score.
Slippers of Spider Climbing have a CL of 4. The DC is therefore 4+5 = 9.
If the fighter cannot provide the spell (with methods A or B listed above) then he must use method C and increase the DC by 5. This becomes DC14 to craft. DC19 if he wants to accelerate it.
- Gauss
P.S. The entire 'Master Craftsman' concept is based on the idea that Master Smiths should be able to make Magic Armor or Weapons without a wizard around. It is in many different fantasy lores that non-magical Smiths make magical weapons using special knowledge.
Don't forget that Master Craftsman itself gives a +2 bonus.
Anyway, yes, the spell is not needed unless it's a spell-trigger or spell-completion item. That means wands, scrolls, staves and potions do require the spell (and say so in their item crafting sections), while wondrous items, arms and armor, rings and rods do not (though a Master Craftsman can't make rods).
You might also consider that a necklace of fireballs or slippers of spider climbing don't actually cast the spells. Instead they create effects very similar to those spells. Using the spell during creation makes things easier, but it isn't required.
Edit: Also, just because it's not Magic, doesn't mean it's not magic. (Discussion on that here.)
Ahhh yes I did forget that. Thanks MagiMaster.
- Gauss
Sorry to hear that BlackGyver. I would probably not take the feat at that point. Its one of the reasons why I always check with the GM BEFORE I take any item crafting feats to find out how they deal with them. If I dont like what I hear, I go a different direction.
- Gauss
Far too many GMs have something against item creation or at least that's the impression I get from reading this forum. I agree that it's best to get everything out of the way up front so you don't waste resources in and out of character on the issue.
Your GMs particular houserule doesn't sound too bad as long as:
- The expensive and rare components count towards the item creation costs. How much is a red dragon heart worth? Probably enough for a high-level necklace. A fire mephit's heart might be more appropriate for a weak one.
- Components in the appropriate price range can be bought. After all, if the local Master Craftsmen need these things to make their items, someone will be selling it to them.
MagiMaster: Even if the GM has no problem with item creation it may not work well in his game. Perhaps the game will never have sufficient time for crafting. Perhaps the GM will not reward item crafting (WBL issues). In either case, it is not worth the feat.
- Gauss
I agree with Gauss. You have no way of knowing what he will come up with next to try to stunt your crafting.
Mage4fun: So what you are saying is 'provide me a roleplay reason that is also mechanical'. Fine, 'blood of a hellhound' could be part of the existing crafting costs. Then it is both RP and mechanical.
The mechanics are trying to simplify things. They do not presume that 'blood of a hellhound' is not added to the mix. That is left to the GM. They do presume that all materials that are required are included in the crafting cost. Even if that cost is just a GP total. Nothing states what that crafting cost is beyond just a GP total so it could be anything, including 'blood of a hellhound'.
For all we know anyone who crafts magic items takes a trip to the local 'strange creature body parts' shop and use the body parts purchased there in the item creation as the crafting costs. That is up to the GM. It does not change the mechanics. You are changing the mechanics in your attempt to add RP. Perhaps provide a GP value for the body part salvaged that contributes to the crafting cost.
- Gauss
Mage4Fun: Right, I agree with you on RP stuff. My point is that I think there are ways to do that inside the rules. Roleplay the hunt for the resources to make a magic item. However, do not require 'extra' resources that are not required by the rules.
Of course, it is your game and you can do what you want. I am just saying that RP does not have to violate mechanics and still be RP.
- Gauss
Perhaps there is a miscommunication.
Rules state: X GP (the RP on that is not set), Materials, and Fireball. If you do not have Fireball increase DC by +5.
From what I understand you are ammending the part about not having fireball by adding 'and must have the blood of a hellhound'. At that point you ARE modifying the rules.
My position is that you do not need to modify the rules. Just roleplay out the acquisition of the GP amount of materials. Do not add a whole extra component.
It is a subtle difference and one that may not actually mean anything to your players but it is a difference in the mechanics. You are adding another item prerequisite. Just like the Masterwork property is required in making a +1 Long Sword you are requiring 'the blood of a hellhound'. That crosses from RP to mechanics.
Note: Blood of a hellhound is one example you used earlier that I can point to. I am sure other examples can be provided.
Personally, if a GM I was playing with made Crafting significantly more difficult than the rules intend I would have to seriously question whether or not I would take Craft feats with that GM ever again. Crafting is intended to be easy. Note: I am not saying you are making it more difficult. I am not at your table so I do not know how hard or easy you are making these extra requirements. But, I have seen GMs add extra requirements in the past all for 'RP' and it makes certain abilities just not worth it.
- Gauss
I see, you want to swap the +5 DC for a special component. Not a bad option. In fact I like it. Houserule all the same and if the component is not readily available then I might have a problem with it as a player. Of course, a player's definition of readily available is variable but you know what your players will tolerate. :)
- Gauss
@Gauss, If crafting isn't right for the current game, that needs to be stated up front. Most of the posts I've read don't suggest this problem has anything to do with a specific campaign.
@mage4fun, The problem is that that does make crafting harder for your players. The original method does not require them to spend large amounts of in game time and energy tracking down these rare items. Your method does. That 1 day necklace (less than 1000 gp) just became a 1 week necklace and they may not have that kind of time.
Also, if they went and commissioned this necklace, the NPCs could probably do it in a day, since you'd likely rule they have the appropriate spell for simplicity sake. Except now the NPCs are better crafters than the players. (The in game reasons for this aren't important. The consequences are.)
As per my previous post, to make this acceptable, you need two things:
- These rare items are presumably worth something. That should count towards the GP requirement as well as anything else. (Actually, you could leave the +5 in there if they counted towards the GP. A +5 is usually not a significant increase in difficulty.) This way, they players will view these items as treasure and actively seek them out. It also means they have the chance to sell it if it turns out they can't find a use for it. (It'd be fair for for such stuff to sell at half price.)
- Some cheaper items should be purchasable. If the players are level 12 and want to make a wand of cure light wounds, are they really going to have to go hunting for fairy dust? The crafting cost is only 375 gp. Use the settlement rules and roll to see if they can find someone with some fairy dust for sale. Expensive stuff won't be available in most cases, but the cheap stuff should be. (Of course, this means that the cheap stuff will just be roll-the-dice-and-its-done, but do you really want to deal with a new quest for every single trinket?)
Also note that if you do this, there's still Use Magic Device that can bypass your entire system. So the rogue with Master Craftsman and UMD will be a better crafter than the paladin of Torag. The person with UMD will just go by a scroll of fireball and skip the quest. (Another reason cheaper components should be buyable.)
UMD lets non-magic users cast spells from scrolls, which is enough for the creation of a magic item. Since scrolls are easier to obtain than rare components, anyone with UMD should prefer it over trying to quest for materials.
It's good the components are worth money. That also means you already have some idea of what they're worth. Do you allow that worth to count towards the GP requirements for magic items?
Sorry for the late reply. I've been out of town.
Anyway, I've got to ask, if they decided to sell the troll heart, how much would it be worth?
The way you're describing things is not too bad mechanically, but it is fairly arbitrary and does increase the difficulty in crafting magic items. You're replacing something that's supposed to be quick and easy (+5 DC, get a scroll, etc) with something potentially expensive and rare (monster parts). Don't be surprised if people decide they don't want to deal with it.
Also, how strictly do you stick to WBL? I know it's probably unlikely to be a problem, but there are some GMs on this board that stick to WBL way too closely and under such GMs getting a greater mask when you wanted a lesser one wouldn't be a good thing. (You'd be stuck with no new gear for quite a while.)
You could probably make this simpler on both yourself and your players if you just said the monster parts had a value that counted as gold for crafting.
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Your GMs particular houserule doesn't sound too bad as long as:
- The expensive and rare components count towards the item creation costs. How much is a red dragon heart worth? Probably enough for a high-level necklace. A fire mephit's heart might be more appropriate for a weak one.
- Components in the appropriate price range can be bought. After all, if the local Master Craftsmen need these things to make their items, someone will be selling it to them.
It is a perfectly reasonable idea, the problem are:
1) keeping tack of the value and effects of the different monster parts (no "if you are level 1 so a the residue from a small small fire elemental has high power but if you are level 10 you need a elder elemental residue to get the same effect")2) the effect of this change on monster treasure. If the dragon heart has a market value it affect the reward for slaying the dragon.
In 3.5. I used a similar rule to reduce XP costs for creating magic items. When using the right body part from an appropriate monster you did get a XP cost rebate, based on the monster CR.
Relatively simple but it still required constant GM evaluation of what was appropriate.
Tying it to the CR is probably a good idea. It simplifies a lot of things, but shouldn't be too unbalancing.