http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/31/secrets-of-mmo-storytelling-exclusive/
This article interviews a couple Runescape developers about storytelling in their MMO and how they engage their players. It's worth noting that 1) their quests are primarily theme park content and 2) while Runescape has never been the massive success other MMOs have been, they have remained remarkably consistent over the last 10 years.
So, take it with a grain of salt, but... I think it's an interesting read and at least some modicum of wisdom can certainly be gleamed from the article.
I'm not at all suggesting they should aggressively pursue a huge marketshare like this. All I'm suggesting is that there are some decent ideas in the article they could maybe gain some insight from.
Just because something is popular, does not mean it is bad.
Further, I'm sure if you asked Goblinworks: "Would you rather make the game of your dreams, meet all of your goals, and feel extremely passionate about your product and have 5 million subscribers... or make the exact same game, accomplish the exact same goals, and feel just as passionate about your product and have 200 million subscribers?" ... they MIGHT just decide it wouldn't hurt to have even more fans of their game.
Refer to the original post where I advise "taking it with a grain of salt." ;)
The thread title here is merely the title of the article; as I mention in the OP, they haven't been insanely successful but they have been quite consistent.
Goblin Squad Member
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Runescape quests are incredibly dull IMO. I basically only did them to unlock new crafting options. They are a series of running around and talking to people, and hoping you have the right items with you, with an occasional fight, and generally mediocre to terrible storylines.
There are some things that may be learned for them. For instance it may be cool to have the items and tools you bring with you play a part in dungeons... however don't copy the formula exactly. While having a rope with a grappling hook may be a fun way to help the party advance across that gap, any party should be able to advance if they are smart enough to think of busting off the hinges on that tall wooden door behind you and using it to bridge the gap. Not just "Better go find some rope!!!" Every dungeon should be beatable with nothing but your most basic gear. Bringing those special items should just help you be more prepared. It shouldn't be a requirement, because running back to town for that one little item you needed but didn't expect to need is no fun at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Possibly the modules of dungeons will be the PfO equivalent, eg the Thornkeep Dungeon descriptions by those writers, sounds very atmospheric and evocative (shame the Grand Duke's one was not picked).
To build on this point, I've noticed Dungeons are really exciting in rogue-like games usually for a number of reasons:
1) Random generation - unexpected: So like a real dungeon each corner is taken carefully like a seasoned adventurer
2) Permadeath given enough of a wack to your hp, so you're on your toes watching for those insta death traps.
3) Within your own bubble of exploration you can make the best choices of using what you have got to get what you want and reduce risk as much as possible.
I think the mechanics that create these criteria are the foundations for a good story on top of these to add flavor and novelty etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every dungeon should be beatable with nothing but your most basic gear.
I'm not sure I actually agree with that.
What I'd personally like to see (but doubt will be in PFO) is a system where harder dungeons have very specific requirements for certain encounters or areas in them. You can either jump right into the dungeon and learn those requirements directly, by trial and error. Or you can spend some time beforehand running intelligence missions to learn them so that you can go into the dungeon more prepared.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Every dungeon should be beatable with nothing but your most basic gear.I'm not sure I actually agree with that.
What I'd personally like to see (but doubt will be in PFO) is a system where harder dungeons have very specific requirements for certain encounters or areas in them. You can either jump right into the dungeon and learn those requirements directly, by trial and error. Or you can spend some time beforehand running intelligence missions to learn them so that you can go into the dungeon more prepared.
Well the Runescape formula is you may need VERY obscure items you would never even think of for quests. For instance in the Priest in Peril quest you need rune essence. This is not part of your regular toolkit, it's a crafting item used almost exclusively for crafting, yet for this one quest if you don't bring a ton of it, you will have to turn back and go retrieve it.
This creates the most awkward and frustrating element of Runescape quests. Bank runs to finish quests. If you do 95% of the quests in Runescape without reading a guide beforehand to find what items you need, you will need to make multiple runs to your bank, or throughout the world, to find items you need to advance further. From buckets, to pink skirts, to random colors of dye, there is just a ton of crap they keep expecting you to have. It is not fun, at all.
I would be ok if there is a logical predictable set of gear that you should just bring with you to every dungeon. Weapons, a knife, a rope, a light source, etc.
However if every dungeon is going to turn me back because I didn't bring a portable battering ram, or an acid flask or some other item you rarely ever need, but need for that specific dungeon... that is pure frustration and nothing else.
One of the great things about D&D and Pathfinder is the ability to improvise. Anytime they require some obscure item there should be a way to get around it if you improvise. This may require a lot more hunting around the dungeon looking for things out of the ordinary, much like a Zelda game, but it should be possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius, I totally understand, and totally agree with, the frustration in being turned back because of some requirement that was impossible to know about beforehand (unless you read walkthroughs).
I'm just suggesting that it can be a very good thing to require certain obscure tools to get past certain encounters or areas, if there are corresponding ways to discover those requirements in-game before going into the dungeon.
Granted, this is very much a Theme Park idea, but it's based on a desire for Intelligence Gathering Missions to be meaningful.
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Yeah, I agree. Heck, even when playing Pathfinder, that kind of rings true, doesn't it?
If your party just goes barreling into a dungeon, they generally end up unprepared and makes things far more difficult for themselves. However, if they had spent some time doing research into the building, the organization that runs it, if they had tried to learn whatever they could about the leader of this organization, they can often times can valuable insight; secret passageways, what kind of keys they'll need, what the password is to get in the employee entrance, the leader's weakness (be that a physical, exploitable weakness, or a personality one - like his interest in women).
I think it could benefit the game if there was the opportunity to invest some time into research that resulted in a benefit. Granted, I don't think things should necessarily be IMPOSSIBLE if you didn't do the research beforehand - but I definitely think it should make some things easier.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually I really have never had a problem with not being able to advance because of an item in either Pathfinder or D&D. I always bring a well rounded set of gear, and if nobody in the party has the right item or skill, there is always a way to improvise. Honestly not once have I never run into: "SHOOT! We need to go back to town find an acid flask, and hire a thief!" If we can't get through that locked metal gate, we'll search for a weak spot in the wall the barbarian can bust open, or just find another way around that might require a bit more fighting.
^ I mean, that's what I'm talking about! I think, like what Nihimon was talking about, it would be cool if having done your homework and some research rewards you with a shorter/easier/faster/more direct route, whereas not being fully prepared doesn't prevent you from advancing, but merely forces you to take a longer/harder/slower/less direct route forward.
So it REWARDS being prepared, but doesn't really hinder being unprepared.
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It's the internet. Nobody takes anything with a grain of salt...
People tell me to cut down on sodium intake, but I tend to take THAT with a grain of salt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm actually perfectly comfortable even with needing item A, as long as there's a fairly straightforward way to learn about that need beforehand.
What I expect would happen is that some of the players who generally have more time would go around learning all the little things they'd need to know about a dungeon during the week before the "raid", and then they'd get to use that information to make the delving successful. I'd like to see that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm actually perfectly comfortable even with needing item A, as long as there's a fairly straightforward way to learn about that need beforehand.
What I expect would happen is that some of the players who generally have more time would go around learning all the little things they'd need to know about a dungeon during the week before the "raid", and then they'd get to use that information to make the delving successful. I'd like to see that.
Overall I agree with some of the concept, just the question of how specific etc... and how that is intended to be discovered. How does one know what they need deep within the dungeon. If it is limited to 1-2 archtypes to figure it out (IE a divining wizard being needed, or an incredibly stealthy rogue) than there is a problem, namely that stops fighters etc... from being able to be the ones to find the dungeons and come back and get a group. Or if they do, fighter has to go find the dungeon, then escort a wizard or rogue back to find out what they need, both trek back to town again, to bring back the classes they need, then both trek yet again to actually do the dungeon. This kind of tedium I can see as very harmful to the game, and limits finding of dungeons to a handful of people.
IMO running the dungeon itself should be a group activity, but finding them, could very well be a logical solo task that anyone who wishes to train it should be able to. Finding out exactly what you need to be able to complete it is IMO part of finding the dungeon.
As well I am not a huge fan of one specific tool being needed, I have no problem with say an optimal tool for the job, existing with several non-optimal tools. IE you can pick a lock, or have a barbarian bust down the door. If you bust it down, expect the next few rooms of enemies to be on gaurd and far more prepared than if you picked the lock, as well as nearly impossible to surprise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really, the original idea was that it would be better for there to be in-game quests that you could complete in order to learn the mechanics of the fights you'd have to win in the dungeon. This would be far better than going to a website to learn the mechanics, and could also be applied to unique, random-generated dungeons and bosses.
It just seemed to apply very well to this conversation, too.
Really, the original idea was that it would be better for there to be in-game quests that you could complete in order to learn the mechanics of the fights you'd have to win in the dungeon. This would be far better than going to a website to learn the mechanics, and could also be applied to unique, random-generated dungeons and bosses.
It just seemed to apply very well to this conversation, too.
I like this idea. It's an apt answer to 3rd party info sites (which while invaluable kind of ruin things) and dungeon journal type mechanics (which are appropriate but not immersive or player driven).
Do you envision a scout physically performing recon missions? Could be a nice skill line for a scout/explorer role. Or it could be as simple as making it so far in without being discovered to find/learn something of intelligence value.
This type of idea (making the metagame somehow part of the game) could be extended a bit to include the crafting system. It's fine to have a trial and error crafting system, but blind experimentation could be supplemented with research. Reagents of moderate expense could magically yield recipes of somewhat random type and value--maybe even for crafts you don't practice. Research could be a whole craft of its own. It could replace or supplement the need for 3rd party info. Rather than going to pathfinder-head, you could go to an in game library that could conceiveably be just as valuable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you envision a scout physically performing recon missions?
Ideally, the system would randomly generate dungeons layouts and encounters, with random abilities for each boss. Once that matrix is generated, then the elements of it would be broken down into a logic problem (John is taller than Susan, Susan is taller than Ed, etc.). Then, a series of quests would be generated that would each reveal one data point from the logic problem. Once all (or most, depending) of the data points have been discovered, then it should be possible to know what to expect in the dungeon.
The real work of this system would be laying out the encounter mechanics and abilities and then creating the set of quest elements that can be randomly strung together to generate the quests.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The article has zero application to a sandbox MMO such as Pathfinder. In a sandbox the players are the content, and thus we are the story. Personally, I feel that story has no place in any type of MMO, whether it be sandbox or themepark. It should be relegated to single player games.
Agreed. I can't stand doing quests anymore in WoW. It's become just another grind, and I find myself preferring to just kill mobs or do dungeons. As much as I hate to admit it, the last time I really cared about a quest was the earring of the solstice in EQ--before all the mats were posted on allakhazam. Trying to discover the quest items was the fun part. (I did like the Queldelar epic quest in Wrath, but I imagine that took quite a bit of development time, too much for something that's only fun once.)
If some quests involved an ever-changing quest item or kill target, that might help literally bring back some of the wonder of questing. If there were daily quests that didn't just rotate but demanded finding a new item every day, it could take people hours to figure out what the requirement is. There could be weekly and monthly quests that would be more involved but similarly unspecified, requiring discovery. Rewards would be significant, reflecting the time and effort required.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I loved SWTOR's story but I agree story isn't the focus of an MMO, especially a sandbox.
In SWTOR I had two distinctly separate roleplay personas per character. My single-player RP persona who followed the story the developers created, and my multi-player RP persona who was the one I used whenever interacting with other players.
The two were distinct and un-mixable. My single player RP persona had done things, met people, taken part in solo missions etc. that were the same or nearly the same as what every other smuggler in the game had experienced.
My multiplayer persona had a unique background, story, goals, and acquaintances than any other smuggler. Based half on a backstory I created and half on my RP experiences with other players.
A good MMO focuses on your multiplayer persona. It needs to create a unique character and story based on your backstory, interactions with other players, etc. So you and 500 other players may have fought in the same war but not all 500 of you would have been sent on a covert mission to assassinate the enemy general, and only one of you would have been the one to lay the final blow.
Most of the time the best way to do this is to just give the players a blank canvas in which they can do or create whatever they want with very little in the way of constraints or guided content... like a kid in a sandbox.
I mean A LOT of people fought in or against The Great Alliance, or in the first two great server wide wars on Freelancer Universe 24/7 but only one man was ever credited with being the political mastermind behind them all. ;)