Just keeping the community informed. I'd recommend we clarify what is OK and what is "not OK" on these forums (e.g. names, content, and other IP whatever that may be). In any case, I appreciate the comments from other fans and remain a fan of D&D in general. Perhaps now is the time to move to original content!
I post this to serve as a reminder to all to make sure we stay within the guidelines going forward.
Cheers,
~D
Note from Chris:
I am contacting you to inform you that multiple posts you have made on paizo.com have been removed or had the links removed. From our forum rules: "Users who participate in our message boards agree to not: post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party." Unfortunately, the conversion files, and in fact many of the files that have been posted violate Paizo's Community Use Policy and infringe on our copyright and trade dress, as well as other third party companies that are not Paizo. Additionally, you may want to revisit your OGL and Section 14 statements on your conversions and discuss them with a lawyer to be sure you are not violating any other company's terms of use or property. You may post these conversions or any other Community Use material once changes and revisions have been made, but as they are now, they are not allowed under our rules.
If you have any questions or concerns, please let us know.
Chris Lambertz
Digital Products Assistant
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Dislike. Serious dislike to paizo on this.
Paizo, like any other corporation, runs the very real risk of losing their intellectual property if they don't aggressively defend it.
Ask "Kleenex" or "Xerox" about not enforcing intellectual property rights.
Just keeping the community informed. I'd recommend we clarify what is OK and what is "not OK" on these forums (e.g. names, content, and other IP whatever that may be). In any case, I appreciate the comments from other fans and remain a fan of D&D in general. Perhaps now is the time to move to original content!
I post this to serve as a reminder to all to make sure we stay within the guidelines going forward.
Cheers,
~D
Note from Chris:
I am contacting you to inform you that multiple posts you have made on paizo.com have been removed or had the links removed. From our forum rules: "Users who participate in our message boards agree to not: post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party." Unfortunately, the conversion files, and in fact many of the files that have been posted violate Paizo's Community Use Policy and infringe on our copyright and trade dress, as well as other third party companies that are not Paizo. Additionally, you may want to revisit your OGL and Section 14 statements on your conversions and discuss them with a lawyer to be sure you are not violating any other company's terms of use or property. You may post these conversions or any other Community Use material once changes and revisions have been made, but as they are now, they are not allowed under our rules.
If you have any questions or concerns, please let us know.
Chris Lambertz
Digital Products Assistant
That's a big bummer Daemonslye, but chin up. You are very good at what you do. I say talk to an attorney, get things straightened out by OGL, and publish something. I'd by it.
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As far as I recall, your links were conversions of TSR/WotC products. That's VERY shaky legal ground there. You might want to consider the fact that you were tinkering with material owned by Paizo's biggest competitor, and a "you allow people to violate our IP rights on your forum" is a pretty nice basis for a lawsuit. And under US law, a lawsuit can kill you before a judge even gets to examine whether the claim is any way serious.
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As far as I recall, your links were conversions of TSR/WotC products. That's VERY shaky legal ground there. You might want to consider the fact that you were tinkering with material owned by Paizo's biggest competitor, and a "you allow people to violate our IP rights on your forum" is a pretty nice basis for a lawsuit. And under US law, a lawsuit can kill you before a judge even gets to examine whether the claim is any way serious.
A-yuh. Minefield.
Paizo, like any other corporation, runs the very real risk of losing their intellectual property if they don't aggressively defend it.
Ask "Kleenex" or "Xerox" about not enforcing intellectual property rights.
That's trademark, not copyright.
That's trademark, not copyright.Paizo, like any other corporation, runs the very real risk of losing their intellectual property if they don't aggressively defend it.
Ask "Kleenex" or "Xerox" about not enforcing intellectual property rights.
I don't think the distinction matters for this conversation. Trademarks and Copyrights are both parts of a bigger set of product identity (with Trade Dress, as well, I would expect) that are actionable when infringed upon.
I don't think the distinction matters for this conversation. Trademarks and Copyrights are both parts of a bigger set of product identity (with Trade Dress, as well, I would expect) that are actionable when infringed upon.That's trademark, not copyright.Paizo, like any other corporation, runs the very real risk of losing their intellectual property if they don't aggressively defend it.
Ask "Kleenex" or "Xerox" about not enforcing intellectual property rights.
Correct, it applies to both. The examples I used were 'trademarks' by name, but Xerox suffered loss of both copyrightable and trademarked intellectual property. Not to mention even some PATENTABLE IP that Steve Jobs found quite useful.
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Paizo does encourage Community Use projects, however, if you'd like to distribute these projects, you need to follow what is outlined in the Community Use Policy. This email was sent because the links provided did not follow what was outlined in this policy. We are also concerned that you follow rules outlined by third parties, because we cannot take on the responsibility of advocating bending or breaking rules that other companies lay out on our website. You can always send us an email at webmaster@paizo.com if something we say upsets or concerns you.
The last thing we want is to discourage community involvement, we just have to be careful about navigating the byzantine complexities of intellectual property law.
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Well, that's one less reason for me to come to this website. Looks like they deleted a large amount of his posts also.
Daemonslye "gets it" when it came to module conversions and retaining the feel of what the game should be like - and by that I mean he understands the old school mindset. Imo only a few people around here are creating content on similar level Raging Swan (I think of Raging Swan as the 2nd ed AD&D TSR/UK successors in both feel, mood, pacing, etc), Frog God and Necromancer games and that's about it.. In Daemon's case it he was converting some of the most interesting and "feels like D&D" modules that were ever produced.
You did some great conversions Slye, and it wasn't all just the numbers and math - you put some of your own personal touches on the material which just enhanced the feel and spirit of the modules. Your conversions of the 1st edition rules (the small amount you posted) is what 3rd edition should have been - what I mean by that is you were on the right track both mechanically and in retaining the spirit of the original rules in your conversion. I wish TSR/Wotc would have hired you and people like you when they first decided to go with the 3rd conversion.
You did the work for us for free – I just want to let you know that a several of us appreciated it.
And before I get troll slammed I get it.
Paizo has to protect itself from the other company which may want to sue them for what Daemonslye may post on here. After all, those old modules are still available from WoTC and it would ruin their sales of those modules in both print and electronic format if Daemonslye kept putting out fan conversions.
Paizo does encourage Community Use projects, however, if you'd like to distribute these projects, you need to follow what is outlined in the Community Use Policy. This email was sent because the links provided did not follow what was outlined in this policy. We are also concerned that you follow rules outlined by third parties, because we cannot take on the responsibility of advocating bending or breaking rules that other companies lay out on our website. You can always send us an email at webmaster@paizo.com if something we say upsets or concerns you.The last thing we want is to discourage community involvement, we just have to be careful about navigating the byzantine complexities of intellectual property law.
I appreciate the comments Chris and will work to remain within guidelines moving forward. Not sure where fan-created adventures go - I suppose the "suggestions" forum?
Thanks for the support folks!
~D
Still appreciated all your hard work Daemonslye
Trademark has a defend it or lose it quality, while copyright does not, even in the case of long-orphaned works. Creative commons provisions would also be in play with copyright, while I'm not aware of an equivalent for trademark.
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The last thing we want is to discourage community involvement, we just have to be careful about navigating the byzantine complexities of intellectual property law.
I also want to point out that Paizo is way ahead of the curve on intellectual property law.
They have published an incredible volume of material under the OGL, including original content that they were in no way obligated to put under such a license. I haven't done a formal study, but I would be willing to bet money that Paizo is the most prolific author of OGL content. (Surpassing even the company that originally authored the OGL license.)
For example, see d20pfsrd.com and then consider trying to make a similar site with the GURPS rules. Steve Jackson Games won't send you a polite e-mail; they will send you a very strongly worded IMMEDIATELY CEASE AND DESIST letter from their lawyer.
Paizo also embraces digital products (PDFs and eBooks) without the cumbersome Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) used by bad companies who assume their customers are thieves.
In short, Paizo "gets" the way customers use content in the 21st century. Their presence and positioning in the market is a message to every other RPG publisher in the industry: Content that can be shared and remixed has value to customers; if you want people to buy your stuff, you need to let them use your stuff!
So when Chris Lambertz removes content that violates intellectual property, Chris isn't the BBEG here. It's the company that originally published the content under a restrictive license. They are the ones asserting: This is MINE!!, you can buy ONE COPY, but don't you DARE attempt to SHARE it with your friends or MODIFY it in any way. You're just LUCKY that we let you buy ONE COPY to look at.
If there were any justice in the world, the restrictive publisher would have to do all their own dirty enforcement work. It's just sad that our laws require Chris to be the heavy in this situation.
Paizo is leading the charge in changing the industry for the better. It's just one of many reasons that I channel money to them every month.
So when Chris Lambertz removes content that violates intellectual property, Chris isn't the BBEG here. It's the company that originally published the content under a restrictive license. They are the ones asserting: This is MINE!!, you can buy ONE COPY, but don't you DARE attempt to SHARE it with your friends or MODIFY it in any way. You're just LUCKY that we let you buy ONE COPY to look at.If there were any justice in the world, the restrictive publisher would have to do all their own dirty enforcement work. It's just sad that our laws require Chris to be the heavy in this...
Wait.. you're blaming the content producer for producing content under the laws of copyright, trademarks, et. al., and then you're saying Chris (the messenger) is the heavy for delivering the message "please don't post things that violate licenses or laws on Paizo's site".
Yes, Paizo. The same Paizo you were previously lauding for being so foresighted and open. But wait.. how can they be foresighted and open if they insist on protecting the intellectual property of others? They must be part of the conspiracy to deny free access to everything for everyone.. they must be... a BUSINESS! Get the pitchforks and torches!
I think Daemonslye was trying to raise awareness that fan conversions can cross lines by sharing the letter he got. Generally, I think keeping the actual text private would have been better, but that's my take and he needs to do what he thinks best.
The note did not say he could not post the conversions at all.. it did say that at least some of the material had violated other intellectual property. A few adjustments might be all that is required to make some of them acceptable, although there could also be some where that is not practical.
Regardless, the issue is that, however unintentionally, there were violations, and the violator was warned. The posts chastising Paizo for not looking the other way are out of line (in my opinion), as is the post I am replying to directly, which characterizes the owners of the Intellectual Property as scheming villains.
/rant
You may now resume your ongoing discussion.
Add me to the list of those who will miss daemonslye's marvelous "reimaginings". I believe in what he was trying to do, but fully understand where Paizo is coming from. So let me just give a big THANK YOU to daemonslye for all his work and also say how much I appreciate both daemonslye and Chris for the adult and professional manner they have exhibited in this thread. This is a touchy situation and it would have been easy for either one to have gone overboard, but they both refrained from doing so and responded to each other in a very positive manner. Great example of why I like Paizo and the other members here on the boards.
Indeed. Daemonslyes conversions were just great. I understand paizo in stopping this, however.
Perhaps a sticky might be called for that explains what is ok and what is not. As I understand it, pure mechanical conversions of old D&D stuff (or other RPG stuff, for that matter) is ok, but tinkering with copyrighted material, like story content, is not. But I´m not too sure on that.
To be honest, I'm surprised he was able to keep posting them for as long as he did without getting asked/told to stop. They were pretty blatant and flagrant violations. Paizo is pretty lucky that they didn't get sued over it.
Maybe Paizo did receive a letter about it.