To sum up this whole thing... Let talk pizza put what ever 4 topping on you pizza you want it still $8.95. But calorically that may not all be the same. One may blow your diet more than the other. You have to decide double cheese, double bacon on your pizza is worth eth extra 20 minutes on the tread mill or should you get mushroom, green pepper, tomato, and onion. And only do 10 minutes. On that note I am going to eat lunch.
Yes, let's talk pizza. For $8.95, you can get a pizza with whatever four toppings you want from the menu. But if you ask for four helpings of exotic, stinky cheese that isn't an option on the menu, you have to pay extra.
EDIT: Yeah, that's right, I'm starting this page with a pizza metaphor. I am so on topic right now.
So this whole thread has been about how some people pay for three toppings, but they choose toppings with as many calories as a pizza with four toppings should have?
And how this prevents everyone else from enjoying their own pizza?
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How come Dark_Mistress has the only on-topic posts in this entire 353 post long thread ?
Naughty Naughty...
But then it IS a demoness that started this whole thing isn't it.
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I will admit most of what I am arguing was meant for challenges higher than 1/3. I imagine whoever picked that CR because it wasn't clearly defined. It does look as if it was meant to have less than 260gp in gear...
And at higher levels, adding some equipment isn't as much a problem given how much variance exists within creatures with the same CR.
I'm just saying if you add things that buff up a bunch, you may bump it up to another CR.
Not that you automatically do, but consult the chart.
@Grimmy - Ashiel created this thread as a response to people like wraithstrike believing he overdoes it with converting treasure into usable gear for an encounter. Even you in this thread said Ashiel was going to far in giving 1/3 CR goblins oil of magic weapon and alchemist flame as standard.
That's false actually. I did not create this thread in response to those. Beyond merely touching on the same mindset of "NPCs can't use treasure" that appears to be prevalent there, this thread is not in response to those posts. It is in response to my blogpost, where I was admittedly ranting a bit as to the perceived entitlement (God how I hate to use that word) to gold-spewing stupid monsters. You are derailing this into some sort of re-hash of an old thread, and as far as I can see, outright lying about how that old thread went down.
Ashiel, according to the book, you're wrong about one thing that I'd like to stick on.
Equal to the party's APL is an easy encounter. Not an Easy, with a capital 'e', but an 'Average' encounter will not tax the party's resources overmuch, and it is highly unlikely to result in casualties. The book says as much...somewhere.
I can't find where, sadly, so this is just me reciting from memory. It's not in the Gamemastering chapter. All the same, I remember this pretty clearly. >_>
I've seen nothing in the core PF rulebook that defines how challenging the game is yet, so I was using the 3.x DMG which does clearly define it. It's also clearly true. I've noted before that creatures of equal CR to a party will seriously threaten at least one member of the party. A great example is the Tiger, or the Shark, and so forth. Neither are particularly dangerous overall, but have a fair chance of killing a single PC if the party isn't on their toes.
The tiger charges during its surprise round up to 40 ft. to the backside of the party. Whomever is closest to the tiger (or looks to be the easiest prey) suffers a monstrous full attack of bite/claw/claw/claw/claw. The attack modifiers are +11/+12/+12/+12/+12. Now your typical 4th level PC, at best, has full plate w/armored kilt, and a shield (AC 22), which the Tiger hits 55% of the time. Worst case scenario, you're a caster and your AC is looking more like 10-14 (flat footed) which puts you in auto-hit territory.
Then the tiger deals damage. Against the hypothetical guy decked in armor, the tiger's DPR (not counting crits) is 23.1 damage. At 4HD, our martial character likely has 10 + 16 + con modifiers (say +8 from a +2 Con), or 10 HP remaining, and then the party rolls Initiative.
If the Tiger was going against someone without all that sweet armor, the DPR is actually 52.25 damage. Against a wizard, sorcerer, or even bard, you're probably dead. 6 + 10.5 + 8 (same con) = -28 HP. He's dead Jim.
@Grimmy - Having read your posts, I thought I should clarify. The goblins have no use for expensive armors, because that is not their role. They are like road-pirates. They wear light armor, sneak up, shock troop travelers, then make off with their goods. They have tools that are expressly for that, and contrary to what it might seem, their equipment is not over loaded in consumables, because of two primary factors.
1. It's what the goblins would use (the potion is for emergencies, and could be swapped out for any other first level potion [This is a way I drop healing potions to my parties, shhhh], the alchemist fires are a grenade since these are soldier goblins) and more importantly:
2.
Leftover gold from any category can be spent on any other category.
Goblins have less in Protection, but more in Consumable. All is right with the world.
PS: Dark Mistress is hilarious and thanks for being around, Aranna is awesome and thanks for being around, Grimmy is awesome and thanks for being around. Everyone else is awesome, thanks for contributing. I'm going to go play a lil' MtG with my friend who just came over. ^-^
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PS: Dark Mistress is hilarious and thanks for being around, Aranna is awesome and thanks for being around, Grimmy is awesome and thanks for being around. Everyone else is awesome, thanks for contributing. I'm going to go play a lil' MtG with my friend who just came over. ^-^
See saying things like this is just a bad idea, it encourages me and I am bad enough on my own. :)
Your argument that they're light raider and thus wouldn't want heavy armor is a better one for not spending more on protection. Though a little division with some wearing chain shirts (or better) for heavier duty and others staying in leather for sneaking might work better.
Yeah I just think consumables is a tough choice as to where to spend leftover coin, because of the nova factor. Although it does fit my image of them really well, which I guess is more important to me.
To be honest though, I think a little more in coins and gems would have been better, for most groups.
But I think the bigger factor by far is the question of whether Goblins get Level 1 NPC gear or not. If not that changes things quite a bit more.
Or even if you were equiping something like a ghoul a crossbow won't overpower it that much if it is just a normal crossbow.
You are very welcome Ashiel. I am always happy to share my thoughts.
I'll probably necromance this thread in a month or two, having finally come upon the statement about difficulty while looking for something completely different. ^___^
I don't see there being much "nova factor" with the goblins. Exactly what are they going to nova? Action economy is a big factor. Once the battle is on, unless the goblins are expecting the PCs to be exceptionally difficult, then they probably will never get around to oiling their weapons. A single 20 gp alchemist fire (or maybe acid flask, but I figure molotovs are more goblin-like but that's just me) isn't exactly what I'd call nova.
Giving an adept a 1 charge wand of lightning bolt and almost no other gear would allow it to nova, and IMHO it would be very wrong, and too similar to giving an NPC a candle of invocation and letting them gate in a 17HD outsider to fight you instead. Such activity is actually contrary to the narrative aspects I've been pointing out.
For example, the goblins have equipment that makes sense for goblins. I could have just said: 1 shortbow, 1 leather armor, 60 arrows, 1 club, 1 short sword, 1 mwk cloak, 1 mwk survival kit, 1 1st level potion, 1 alchemist fire, some spare coins/gems. Maybe if I hadn't said "magic weapon" specifically as a potion, it wouldn't have come to this. I get the feeling if I had said "potion of cure light wounds" suddenly it would be people complaining that you're getting extra-healing for 1-shotting the goblins. I dunno.
In the Level 1 category that means spend as close to 130gp as you can reasonably get on Protection, then if there's anything left you can spend it on other categories, not spend anything anywhere you want.
Your argument that they're light raiders and thus wouldn't want heavy armor is a better one for not spending more on protection. Though a little division with some wearing chain shirts (or better) for heavier duty and others staying in leather for sneaking might work better.
I quoted the relevant part. Anything you don't spend in X you spend somewhere else. I went with what made sense for the NPC. These are light skirmishing soldier goblins. You also have to apply a degree of good sense and appropriateness to the NPC in question.
For example, one could argue that the moment you go from NPC level 6 to NPC level 7, your the Fighter must have a +1 ring of protection over a suit of full plate w/ armored kilt, because technically out of the 2,000 gp protection limit, the ring is the closest to 2,000 gp you can get with as few items as possible; even though this would mean a 7th level Fighter has an AC of 11 instead of the 6th level Fighter's AC of 20. Of course, that would be silly.
The item breakdown is a good starting point for dividing equipment. It also notes that certain categories blend together frequently (for example, spellcasters might have wands instead of weapons, even though wands are clearly a consumable).
I think there is more being read into this than is needed...
All of that being said, is there any chance we can get back to the original post, which was about discussing how many people have their NPCs use any relevant treasures to their advantage and why? This goblin thing is getting a little of track, I think.
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Ashiel, bit of advice here--requests to drop arguments go over better if they aren't placed right under a 500-word counterpoint.
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All of that being said, is there any chance we can get back to the original post, which was about discussing how many people have their NPCs use any relevant treasures to their advantage and why? This goblin thing is getting a little of track, I think.
If they have a magic item and it makes sense they use it. That is how my group always does it. As far was why we do it, just makes sense. No sane thinking person/creature is not going to use any item they have to help win a likely life and death fight. It helps with immersion.
Ashiel, quick question about the Tiger example. During a surprise round I thought you only get a standard action or a move action? And charge is a special full-round action isn't it? Attacking on a charge only allows a single attack?
I could use clarification, if you can be that savage with a Tiger I'm totally using this tactic against my PC's someday.
Tigers quite likely have Pounce, Pendin. Pounce lets you full-attack on a charge. Nasty ability.
EDIT: Haha, derp. 9_6
No, even with Pounce, they wouldn't get a full-attack in a surprise round. That's just common sense.
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In the alternate universe where tigers don't get a full-attack and movement in the surprise round, the tiger gets a single attack, party rolls initiative. The tiger can still deal a lot of damage with its full-attack, of course, but no flat-footed ACs. Plus, odds are good at least one PC manages to go first.
And if the tiger gets a bad Init roll, the fight will end quickly. If an encounter depends on the monster getting a single, specific good roll, it's not terribly difficult. It could be, of course. But that's about potential. On-average, the tiger probably won't kill anybody. There is, of course, a chance for a fatality, if the other PCs can't get Tigger away from Squishy the Mage quickly enough.
@Kobold
If you're limited to a standard action (like you are in a surprise round) you can charge at your movement speed, rather than double speed, and cannot draw weapons during the charge unless you have quick draw. That's why Ashiel was talking about them stalking at 40ft; that's how far they can charge and attack during a surprise round.
@Kobold
If you're limited to a standard action (like you are in a surprise round) you can charge at your movement speed, rather than double speed, and cannot draw weapons during the charge unless you have quick draw. That's why Ashiel was talking about them stalking at 40ft; that's how far they can charge and attack during a surprise round.
I'm still a little confused as the PRD states you only get a single attack, even when qualifying for multiple:
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
I don't see there being much "nova factor" with the goblins. Exactly what are they going to nova?
Ashiel unlike you that Goblin scenario would have taken me about 3 weeks to complete. So instead of posting my own example up, I just said what I would have done a little differently. It's not an attack on you.
You went to all the trouble of writing it, why not let people scrutinize it. It's ok if not everyone thinks its perfect. I for one would have paid a few bucks for it if you had released it as a PDF.
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I'm still a little confused as the PRD states you only get a single attack, even when qualifying for multiple:
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Tigers have pounce, a quality that allows them to make a full attack when they charge and gain any rake attacks that they have.
All of that being said, is there any chance we can get back to the original post, which was about discussing how many people have their NPCs use any relevant treasures to their advantage and why? This goblin thing is getting a little of track, I think.I think what's driven this off track is the distinction between "use any relevant treasures to their advantage" and "Use the vast majority of the monster's wealth to equip it as well as possible".
You say the first, which I think is reasonable and I doubt many here would disagree with, but your examples point to the second.
To be fair though, Treasure Type: NPC Gear is a different case then Treasure Type: Standard (or double or incidental or whatever)
I'll probably necromance this thread in a month or two, having finally come upon the statement about difficulty while looking for something completely different. ^___^
Do you think it could have been from 3.5?
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Tigers quite likely have Pounce, Pendin. Pounce lets you full-attack on a charge. Nasty ability.
EDIT: Haha, derp. 9_6
No, even with Pounce, they wouldn't get a full-attack in a surprise round. That's just common sense.
I love how we are "moving on" from the derail that is unpopular with the argument to another derail that we will likely also be moving on from now that tiger pounce is clarifies and unpopular with the argument.
Wonder where we will go next?
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But before we move on from the tiger...
CR 4 average Tiger
AC 17 14
HP 40 45
Good Attack 8 10
Bad Attack 6 9
Damage 16 21* (rake 1d8+6 X2)
Primary DC 15 (N/A)
Secondary DC 10 (N/A)
Good Save 7 8
Bad Save 3 3
*Assuming rake hits both times you do 1d8+6 damage on each, which is a big assumption since the AC is 17 and your attack bonus is 10.
If anyone would like to do the math, I am guessing it isn't much more than 16, which is average damage for a CR 4 creature.
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@Kobold
If you're limited to a standard action (like you are in a surprise round) you can charge at your movement speed, rather than double speed, and cannot draw weapons during the charge unless you have quick draw. That's why Ashiel was talking about them stalking at 40ft; that's how far they can charge and attack during a surprise round.
Assuming clear path of course. Hard to do when you are hiding behind things...
And then they would have an AC of 12 the next round.
Against a level 4 PC in +1 fullplate, wearing a +1 ring of deflection and a +1 amulet of natural armor (might as well give them the benefit of the doubt for AC, right?) they'll take a hefty chunk of damage. That's 22 AC flat footed.
Claw/rake +12 (1d8+6 avg 10.5) against AC 22 comes out to 42*.55 = 23.1
Bite: +11 (2d6+6 avg 13) against AC 22 comes out to 13*.50 = 6.5 damage
The tiger deals 29 damage on average in the best possible case for a flat footed, unbuffed PC being ambushed; and then they're likely grappled. If they're a fighter with 16 CON they'll have 38 hp, 9 after being savaged by the tiger. Things get even more grim with a less defensively optimal target.
They might fare a bit better if they're walking around with a heavy shield out (24.1 damage average), but they still take a lot of damage very quickly.
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The tiger is going to have a hard time charging if they are hiding behind something. And while the +11 stealth is good, it is against 4 perception checks from 4th level players, which is the assumption that has to be made for the scenario to work, as if detected all you need to do it get something between you and the tiger to avoid the pounce attack.
And again, assuming they didn't detect the tiger, and the tiger got a clear path to charge, after the initial attack the tiger has a 12 AC.
Compared to other 4th level creatures, it is maybe on the high end, but it can't fly, has no magical attacks...it is basically a one trick pony.
The point is that it can deal a lot of damage in its niche, and seriously threaten at least one character's life. We're not talking about fighting them in a PC optimal situation, nor are we discussing their survivability.
You said that they don't do much more than 16 damage, which is what's listed on the CR chart, and I presented evidence that you're wrong. Don't start a different argument when your point is refuted, it's disingenuous.
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You are assuming they are able to hide successfully within 80 feet with no difficult terrain between them and the party to get that damage.
You are correct about damage, and you are right to call me out on it, but it is also a presumptive scenario that all the factors are so favorable to the tiger.
It is similar to discussing Ghouls, who can TPK a party with the paralysis attack, but are also very fragile to the level.
I think tigers are dangerous, but CR appropriate as if spotted they are fairly easily thwarted by a CR 4 party.
To be fair to the tiger, they can just run away and come back later if they get spotted. Nothing says the moment the PCs spot them they have to charge in suicidally.
And don't discount the perception penalty from distance; their stealth is at least effectively +15 from distance penalties until they strike. Beating that, even with 4 people, is a tall order for all but the most perception oriented party.
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Put another way, one could argue that a Tiger in high grass with no difficult terrain could be considered a +1 encounter due to terrain.
You are correct on the damage, I forgot the rake was above and beyond the other full attack. But it would likely be because of a mistake by the party if the tiger got that pounce.
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To be fair to the tiger, they can just run away and come back later if they get spotted. Nothing says the moment the PCs spot them they have to charge in suicidally.
And don't discount the perception penalty from distance; their stealth is at least effectively +15 from distance penalties until they strike. Beating that, even with 4 people, is a tall order for all but the most perception oriented party.
The tigers 4th level perception is +8. Less than a 4th level PC with any kind of investment in perception.
So we have the tiger see the party first, without being seen. Hide within range to charge, but not behind anything that would impede the charge, and then attack in the full round (because it can't attack in the surprise)
Those are a lot of "ifs".
It feels CR appropriate to me when you consider it is -3 ac and has no magic.
Compare it to the Dark Stalker that can cast deeper darkness at will and does 3d6 sneak attack plus poison.
@ciretose Why is the Tiger holding until the first full round?
But before we move on from the tiger...
CR 4 average Tiger
AC 17 14
HP 40 45
Good Attack 8 10
Bad Attack 6 9
Damage 16 21* (rake 1d8+6 X2)
Primary DC 15 (N/A)
Secondary DC 10 (N/A)
Good Save 7 8
Bad Save 3 3*Assuming rake hits both times you do 1d8+6 damage on each, which is a big assumption since the AC is 17 and your attack bonus is 10.
If anyone would like to do the math, I am guessing it isn't much more than 16, which is average damage for a CR 4 creature.
I think it claw claw bites on the pounce not rake twice There is a comma between. It can make a bite attack with pounce.
Okay so its just the assumption he wants to be as far out as he can to maximize his stealth.
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Put another way, one could argue that a Tiger in high grass with no difficult terrain could be considered a +1 encounter due to terrain.
No because thats where you're expected to meet a tiger. Actually it would be easier to argue that his CR gets adjusted down if you met him somewhere else, where his advantage was lost.
Hmmm, How does the surprise round work?
If I'm the tiger and I spot the party while they haven't yet seen me, can I remain hidden during the surprise round and then break out of cover, pounce 80' and full attack on my action on the first round?
PC's might not be flat-footed, but if they haven't spotted me, what would they do before I act?
Or is it that whenever I burst out of cover and charge that's the surprise round?
The way I understand, the tiger was aware of the PC's before combat began so he acts in the surprise round. The PC's were not aware of the tiger so they do not.