I was under the impression that feat requirements must always be met for crafting feats. I'll double check.
...so the only thing that's absolutely required is item creation feat.
I thought craft rod was pretty terrible until I found this out. xP
Thanks! although I wouldnt call it homebrew per say... but yea i dont think its PFS legal. That being said I think fireball is definately a solid choice but was curious if there were any other contenders for my magical lineage preferred spell that was level 3 or lower, or if your better off doing a level 6 magical lineage preferred, perfected spell for endgame god mode?
yea im not really going for the save or suck spells, although im quite aware of thier power. More battlefield control, the problem with a 4th level to 6th level spell lies in the fact i cannot use lesser version rods, which can become ridiculously expensive. Your right though very few spells pack the punch of Magic Missle or Fireball. I was just hoping for other options :P
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I think that depending on what you're facing, Ice Storm is a real contender with Fireball.
* It doesn't allow Save for Half, so it negates any Evasion abilities of your enemies. 5d6 no save for half vs. 10d6 save for half is comparable but not stronger. The evasion is the nice part here.
* It does two different types of damage, getting around some resistances that way.
* Cold resistance is slightly rarer than fire resistance.
* It works with Rime Spell right-away, for a decent 4 turns of entanglement.
* It creates Difficult Terrain even without Rime Spell, allowing you to do battlefield control.
* It suggests several more environmental conditions, all of which have explicit game effects described elsewhere, but unlike Sleet Storm, doesn't call them out explicitly. Ask your DM what he thinks. You're okay either way; if the environmental effects do stuff, use it to obstruct vision. If they don't, you can shoot at the people stuck in the difficult terrain.
* It fits your cold theme.
* It doesn't risk accidentally starting fires, which may come up now and then. It won't do damage to battle loot (scrolls...) the way fireball can.
Fireball is still a good spell, but I think Ice Storm is at least a serious contender.
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I'm putting my support in for Superior Summoning. With the exception of foes with high DR or strong AoE attacks, you're almost always better off summoning multiple smaller dudes than one big dude. 3 pouncing cats gets you 15 total attacks, all of which are boosted by Augment Summoning and can be Smiting. It's sick.
Also, I personally can't wait for Fast Study, because our group often finds itself in somewhat dangerous territory where 1 minute is doable but 15 is not.
Oh, and if you really want to go all the way to level 20, you should probably invest in Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration somewhere around level 10. As an elf (I believe those bonuses stack), you'll be able to more or less ignore spell resistance, which gets quite common at higher levels. Granted, I usually only take metamagic feats as a sorcerer, so my wizard builds tend to have spare feats around that level. (I dislike blasting, and nonblast high-level spells are usually stronger than metamagicked low-level spells.)
Yeah, getting past SR is important at higher levels...And even though the conjuration gimmick is getting around SR, i don't think there are any spells comparable to fireball of the control thing.
on an unrelated note,
say I hit an opponent with a dazing acid arrow. Do they have to save against dazing every turn they take acid damage? O_o
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Yeah, Dazing Spell is busted with spells that deal damage over time. I hadn't rhought of Acid Arrow yet, but that's indeed sick.
Another thing: as a Summon Monster wizard, you alignment really matters. You can apply Axiomatic, Celestial, Entropic and Fiendish templates if your alignment permits. You only get to apply one template per summons, but it seems you're not locked into the same choice every time, if you have multiple options.
between traits, my familiar, and my dex bonus my initiative will START at +8, do not get me wrong im not devaluing it in any way, but it seems other things take priority at that point. Then Academae grad is Backstory, im ONLY allowed to do it, before the campaign starts not after.
Well, the more initiative the better. A wizard who acts late can fail to control the situation before melee starts, or worse yet, get dropped before he can act. Remember, many many monsters and NPCs will have improved initiative, meaning you need some of these bonuses to even break even many times. To actually get the edge, you need as much initiative as possible. Also remember that when and if you get improved familiar, you'll LOSE the initiative bonus from your vanilla familiar. The improved familiars are great, but that is definitely a hit. There's definitely a reason II shows up in virtually all optimization discussions for wizards.
That said, you don't have to grab it at level 1 either (I myself am currently playing a controlling/blasting hybrid Conjuration specialized Wizard, and am planning on taking it at 3rd), and if level 1 is the only time you can grab Academae Grad, definitely do it since summoning will be a big thing for you. I just think II is a virtual must have feat to grab as early as reasonably possible unless you're not heavily control focused and also have enough HP to take a serious beating to survive getting focused when you lose initiative.
Also i can in fact just RP the tattoo part, but that would make the inscriptions totally unavailable for the rest of the game, as the GM says "there are no other wizard tattoo artists in this general area". Also inclined to understand the GMs logic.
I agree with the logic as well, but don't consider it a very big deal. How many magic item slots do you really need? Sure the tattoos let you effectively double your slots, but I've played exactly zero characters who have ever even filled up the slots you start with. Plus there are already crafting rules for creating custom items that are either slotless or use an alternative slot via the other crafting feats (or NPCs via commission). So Inscribe Tattoo has an absolutely enormous cieling for potential power gained, but in anything but an all the way Monty Hall game, the actual power netted will be much closer to zero. Which leaves its flavor and RP potential, and if I wanna RP something, I just do; don't need a feat for that ;-)
What i definately do see is maybe doing preferred spell before imp, familiar but im not sure what id lose, some say to take it even earlier than 7th level and then just swap when you reach it, but i think i like just taking at 7th level so i dont have to worry about it for awhile.
1-scribe scroll, academae grad
3-spell focus conj
5-Inscribe tattoo , Augment summoning
7-EITHER Imp Fam, or Preferred spell (fireball?)
9-Imp Fam., or preferred spell (fireball?)
10-opposition Research
11-meta magic (quickened)
13-meta magic (dazing)
15-meta magic (rime?) , Spell perfection (Fireball?)
This still looks really solid to me; especially if you put Improved Initiative in place of Inscribe Tattoo. Note that I'd consider this a particularly important switch if you're definitely gonna grab Improved Familiar.
One thing I will say though: if you wait until 9 or much later to get Improved Familiar, and IF the only reason you really want the feat is for improved action economy via wand spammage, then by that time, you're also getting to the point where you can spare a 3rd level slot each day for anthropomorphic animal, which lasts an hour per level and grants your familiar a pair of arms (may also be made permanent if you'd rather not use the spell slots). Plus, it'll still be your base familiar meaning you keep the initiative bonus. Of course, if you really want that psudodragon or imp or whatever for flavor reasons, that's another thing entirely.
I say fireball? Because I'd like to make my wizard cold oriented. I really like the rime metamagic feat, and the control it offers by entangling not only melee creatures but making it more difficult for casters to cast. all for a +1 i think its pro. Im sure magic missle could work as well, or maybe something scorching ray turned cold, but im not certain how to go about it. so far this is what it looks like.
Fireball is a fantastic spell for use with metamagic, especially if you can use freezing spell to make it cold based for rime spell goodness. Long range, large area, qualifies for dazing (and rime with your setup), low enough level to give plenty of room for metamagic improvement AND use of lower rods, plus a bit of damage to boot. What's not to like? You mentioned getting freezing spell in place of Dazing or Quickened, but I would really try to keep them both and either fit that feat in elsewhere or rely on rods to get the job done. If you're really not worried about damage with your fireball at all, then using a rod to make it cold all the time is no biggie since you won't care about empowered, intensified, etc. You still may want to have a selective rod, maybe another elemental rod, and maybe a lingering rod though, and I know its annoying when you want all that metamagic on the same spell but you can only use a singe rod at a time. No answer is bad here though; just depends on what you want from it.
As for alternative options to FB and MM, I dunno if you can do too much better. Burning Arc is a solid option for a little extra precision vs. FB, while maintaining multitarget capacity and better damage than MM. Snapdragon Fireworks can also be pretty brutal with dazing (and rime I suppose) since you can keep it going round after round with a move action. Flaming Sphere would be okay. Someone already mentioned ball lightning; same idea there, but more targets and damage in exchange for inability to use lesser rods. I dunno...anyone ever used Aqueous Orb for stuff like this? I love that spell.
Ascalaphus,
Awesome choice and I would totally do it, but is it really worth doing icestorm as opposed to any other cold damaging spell like cold ice strike or cone of cold? The fact that its a 4th level spell, no longer allows me to use lesser rods to enchance it. So what I'm saying is, if I magical lineage, preferred spell, and spell perfection a spell, which is going to best fit. Magical lineage can give me either rime, or freezing for free, preferred spell will allow me to replace any spell I know with that spell, allowing for a lot of versatility, and finally perfected spell, now its a freezing fireball due to elemental cold still level 3 slot, make it rime with a rod 3k lesser version, and add dazing on top. Now for 3k and at level 9 I can cast a frozen rime fireball, that can replace any level3 spell slot, and be enhanced by a meta magic rod.
Now let's say I'm doing that with ice storm.
Its already ice so I don't need the elemental rod, so I just take the rime feat with magical lineage now its free, but its still a fourth level slot as opposed to a 3rd, we can make it dazing by making it perfected. So far 4th level spell slot, with dazing and rime dealing two types of damage.
Here's the money maker question,
If I learn the meta magic feat quicken and dazing, and I apply both to say fireball that would be my perfected spell. Its now a level 6 fireball spell slot. Would I still be able to use a lesser metamagic rod on fireball due to the fact that its original spell slot was a 3rd level spell? Or would I have to use a 3-6 level rod to reflect the new spell slot that the quickened dazing fireball would take?
If the first is true, spells like magic missle, fireball, and apparently acid arrow (for the big bad) really don't have any contenders. While if the other is true, I definately see how ice storm is a solid choice, and could very well be my perfected spell.
Here's the money maker question,
If I learn the meta magic feat quicken and dazing, and I apply both to say fireball that would be my perfected spell. Its now a level 6 fireball spell slot. Would I still be able to use a lesser metamagic rod on fireball due to the fact that its original spell slot was a 3rd level spell? Or would I have to use a 3-6 level rod to reflect the new spell slot that the quickened dazing fireball would take?If the first is true, spells like magic missle, fireball, and apparently acid arrow (for the big bad) really don't have any contenders. While if the other is true, I definately see how ice storm is a solid choice, and could very well be my perfected spell.
Its definitely the first option. Fireball in that case would STILL count as a 3rd level spell, both for better and for worse. The plus side is you get to use a cheaper rod. The downsides are 3rd level save DC AND vulnerability to being completely shut down by a lesser globe of invulnerability. Of course, heighten can counteract those issues should they arise, but WILL raise the spell level and thus require use of more expensive rods as well.
All that said, Ice storm is still a solid choice for pure control IMO. I don't see it as "better" but certainly functional and effective; especially if you care not for damage. From a purly optimization viewpoint though? I'd agree that MM, FB, and AA (for BBEG) are tough to compete with.
It's been said before, but allow me to add another vote to the "do not take defensive feats" (Toughness, Dodge, Defensive Maneuver Training, etc) crowd. Teleportation subschool is really too good. And as a summoner, you should be invisible or mirror imaged up any time you think danger could be around. Grab a ring of invisibility as soon as you can if you find that normal castings of the spell aren't keeping up. Between shifting as a swift action if needed and an "AC alternative" defensive spell cast before combat, you don't really need HP, AC, or CMD.
I'm a big fan of Opposition Research. It comes into play only slightly later than you'd really want the likely standouts from that school anyway (often enervation, fear, and waves of fatigue from necromancy, as was previously mentioned).
Most metamagics are hard to afford at low levels, even those at only +1 spell level, unless you have a mechanism to decrease the cost. I consider them a later-game strategy. Improved initiative will always be useful, though.
The trait for +2 concentration gets my vote.
Finally, I'm with rpewin1 on con > dex (especially as a summoner, you'll rarely need rays; fort > ref; and AC will be miserably low anyway) and arcane bond over the familiar for party reasons. If you're good at the summoning schtick and don't play with other optimizers, it's really easy to marginalize them in combat. Plus, the bond can save the entire party's bacon when you need that one spell right now.
Fireball is the boom spell by which all other boom spells are measured. It may not be best, it may even be so common that everyone defends against it, but it's the reason a herd of kobolds stops being a threat at level 5.
Other than being able to hit anything, yeah I guess.
Also remember that if you don't put some effort into making blasting better you might as well not remember barely any blasts. A normal fireball will never be better than haste or slow because of it's pathetic damage.
You are incorrect on the rods, I believe. There's been discussions on this forum, but the consensus is that you use a rod based on the spell slot the spell is cast out of, not its base spell level. So a dazing fireball counts as a 6th level spell for the purpose of rods but is still a 3rd level spell for saves, damage, and all other effects.
I could be (I'd like to be actually), and I can definitely see running a game that way, but the RAW doesn't read that way. Metamagic doesn't change the spell level unless its heighten. Spell slots =/= spell level.
Sure it'll be cheaper to be able to use lower end rods, but the disadvantages of it still being a level 3 spell are pretty huge (low DC, globes of invulnerability, etc.) If the reverse is true and one must use higher level rods to affect metamagic'ed low level spells, then the spell must BE higher level and therefore also pierce the globes (which is a fairly big deal IMO). But then why don't DCs change? Because they're not actually higher level spells.
There may be debate on the matter, and RAI is going to play a role in home games, but the RAW pretty clearly support my view IMO. I'd actually be careful of making it go the other way. It'd be more expensive to get the rod(s) you want, but it would ultimately make the spells MORE powerful by circumventing common methods of immunity to sup'ed up spells.
At any rate, in the interest of avoiding thread derailment I won't likely comment too much further on this particular matter. Its not gonna change the game drastically either way IMO since either interpretation has pluses and minuses.
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I agree that not getting to use Lesser rods on Ice Storm is a disadvantage. Whether you can use them on an already-metamagic'ed Fireball is fishy territory. Maybe if you keep it at level 3 with Spell Perfection, but then you can't use both Dazing and Quickened AND a Lesser rod. Keep in mind though that by level 15 (Spell Perfection requires Spellcraft 15 ranks), you can probably easily afford a normal metamagic rod.
But to take a totally different spin on this: aren't you now totally building an Evoker rather than a Conjurer? Doing damage is something you can delegate to summoned monsters (who around level 9 start throwing lightning bolts of their own), and to party members. What a Conjurer excels at above an Evoker is battlefield control, not blasting.
There's nothing wrong with making an evoker, it's probably highly satisfying to play, but isn't it more straightforward to make an Admixture evoker then?
Fireball is just a carrier for condition inflicting metamagic here. It's valuable for its area of effect and reflex save. There aren't many reflex save condition inflicters and reflex save is the only one that actually gets worse as monsters level up because of size penalties to dexterity.
Even if not focused on maximizing damage, you need to focus on making sure your fireball successfully dazes, entangles, or possibly sickens your target.
There are five things that get in the way:
They have spell resistance.
They have elemental resistance.
They make their saving throw.
Your friends are also within the radius.
You don't need a fireball right now.
*shamelessly plugs build once more*
This build is not based on damage maximization. The damage boost from being an Evoker is gravy, but not why I chose it. I don't take empower or maximize. I decided to take Intensified Spell at level 15, since it was efficient.
My build specializes in addressing the weaknesses of the spell.
Spell Resistance: Elven Magic, Spell Penetration and GSP, and Spell Perfection doubling the bonuses from the feats means you have a spell that can pierce through most SR. Another way to boost this is Spell Specialization, which boosts caster level. (And is doubled by Spell Perfection) Also, a rod of Piercing Spell could come in handy, if your GM allows UM rods. (My GM does; if yours doesn't, pray it comes in Ultimate Equipment?)
Elemental Resistance: Admixture allows you to change to whatever type you need. (And allows you to add Rime, if you change to cold)
Saves: Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus boost the saving throw. Spell Perfection doubles this boost. Heighten can also boost the saving throw. (As well as make it a higher level spell, increasing the duration of entangled or dazed and gets around globes of invulnerability.)
Friendly Fire: Selective Spell can be added spontaneously. You may want a rod for earlier levels, since you can't get this feat until level 10.
Don't Need It: Preferred Spell or Greater Spell Specialization allows you to never have to prepare a fireball. If the situation calls for battlefield control, do that before you fireball. If none of your current spells pack the punch you need, you can sacrifice spells for a fireball that can change element, pierce throw SR, entangle and/or daze, and not get friends caught within the radius.
But that's not to say my wizard is so amazing and obscenely powerful that all other wizards suck. xP
...it just happens to be my favorite play style. A conjurer has many powerful options, as you've shown in your builds.
Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning are amazing. Another thing to keep in mind is that you can use Spell Perfection on Summon Monster IX and such. This doubles the boost from Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning.
Being a conjurer means you have the amazing teleportation ability. You also have the best spells in the game and the list seems to be growing, such that Spell Focus (Conjuration) is not even a feat tax anymore.
Anywho, just sayin'. Conjurers rock too. :B
Wow just wow,
I never expected this thread to grow this much, but considering the topic and content its pretty great that it has! :)
Now to work
Mtcityhunter
I don't feel you've derailing the thread but contributing to it, I more or less understood metamagic feats to work in the same way you explained, but didn't want to assume it. Hence, why I asked the question, when melissa answered soon after with her post, it made me quite concerned, but thank you for clarifing that. :)
Ascalaphus
I'm not trying to make an evoker, and I definately see what your saying though. My focus is battlefield control, and I will focus on summoning buffing/ and making my gms creatures lives a living hell while my friends pick them off slowly. That doesn't mean that I will deny myself a great way of entangling my enemies while doing damage, and making a casters life hell by forcing the caster to do concentration checks. Hence, the questions on a preferred spell for versatility, and perfected spell for free metamagic greatness. Because we have already begun play I still took magical lineage, but because I hadn't decided on what spell I want to stick with, I asked my gm for me have the trait but to give me more time to decide which spell. Seeing as I gain no benefit from not having a spell already chosen, my gm agreed.
Chort
I really enjoy your plugs. :p no but seriously I like seeing the ups and downs to the decisions I make, and be seeing different points of view it enables me to make more informed decisions. Your build is very well focused, and I definately see the possiblity for greatness, but as I told ascalaphus, I wasn't trying to make an evoker, I'm definately a conjurer. I agree the ability admixture is great especially if you come across enemies with elemental resistances, but well then ill summon a creature accordingly to make up for it, or spend an extra round casting some form of group buff. I was just trying to add an extra riming dazing/quickened fire ball / magic missle for some extra Cc is all. I am aware though that after certain points sr may be a problem and I may decide to add spell penetration accordingly, if I really do depend on the one trick pony that often. In all honesty I'm hoping ill be more varied than that though, but I do see the godliness of fire ball. :)
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I must say the Admixture evoker looks nice enough to actually work as a blaster-like wizard. Particularly because it can deal with Resistance without learning too many different elements, that's nice.
I'm not sure the Dazing Fireball plan is really the most economical way to go around it; you could do a lot with Sleet Storm or Black Tentacles, saving you a lot of feats. I mean, the Fireball route works, but it's a heavy investment, and there are other ways.
Something I'd be interested in seeing would be a Perfect Calcific Touch build; use Reach Spell to turn it into a ranged touch spell, add Maximize to petrify most monsters in 3-5 rounds. It's not area control, but it does a decent job against many monsters and destroying enemy Dex also aids the melee fighters.
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I want to offer some "outside the box" thinking here.
Everyone on these boards builds a "Treantmonk conjurer" and sure, it's a good build for the first 7 levels or so.
But do you REALLY want to throw down summoned monster after summoned monster?
If the answer is yes, then go with it, but let's face it, there is NOTHING in the last 10 levels of that build to look forward to as a player. You can start piling on feats that help your character, but there is little or no "thematic mo-jo" to work with.
Compare this with an evocation mage, who starts out with +2 to his level for calculating damage dice from the spell specialization feet, and who just get's better and better as he levels. By level 15, he's dropping a maximized heightened fireball along with a quickened heightened fireball using the Spell Perfection feat.
The Treantmonk conjurer just doesn't have anything more feat-intensive to work with than that. Once he's got his basic shtick of (excellent) monster summoning abilities, he's pretty much just picking whatever suits his fancy. No goal in mind.
How do you optimize a Treanetmonk conjurer after level 9?
Don’t get me wrong, I’d still rather play a conjurer, the teleport abilities rock. The problem is that the build kind of sags late in the game. In my own group, we have 7 players, so throwing more pieces on the board can really bog down play.
My solution was this:
Human Conjurer, (Teleportation)
Talents: Slippery, and Vaj Jungle Guid (stealth and perception are class skills)
Opposition Schools: Abjuration & Enchantment
Bonded object = ring
1) Improved Initiative
1) Spell Penetration
2)
3) Craft Wondrous
4)
5) Fast Study, Heighten Spell
6)
7) Preferred Spell (Enervation)
8)
9) Craft Rod
10) Opposition Research (Abjuration)
11) Maximize Spell
12)
13) Quicken Spell
14)
15) Greater Spell penetration, Spell Perfection (Enervation)
16)
17) FEAT
18)
19) FEAT
20) Immortality
The point of this build is to keep my options open, but still pack a punch. The key here is that there are plenty of battlefield control spells that don’t offer saves. There are also plenty of AOE spells to soften up the mooks. What this build lets me do is:
1) Contribute to damage as a support caster by softening up the bad guys for my team
2) Lay down plenty battlefield control thanks to the 1 extra spell per day granted by conjuration. This may include Summoning spells, but it is not dependent on them.
3) Stay hidden most of the time. This is the big deal about the teleport ability. “poof out and hide” is a basic shtick for this build. Note that stealth is effective against both See Invisible and True Seeing effects.
4) Bonded object + Quick study allow for maximum versatility. Also the fact that enervation is spontaneous cast means that you don't have to memorize it to use it, keeping spell slots open for other options.
5) Have one really good “boss blaster” spell that (again) supports my team, with enervation and give a nice ability that stays relevant late in the game.
Part of why I did this is because unlike Treantmonk, I’m not that fond of summoning, and while I think his build is great, it’s not that great for me or my group.
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Hey all
I want my focus to be on battle field control. Blast spells can be fun, but i prefer using spells that will using metamagic feats like Rime, Disruptive, Dazing, Persistant, and or Quickening. I know Rods can help with this as well.Can someone assist by recommending suggested feats that would more or less fit these reqs? or something you found to be highly effective for your own character? ive been reading suggestions but it seems your feat list must be custom tailored to a specific spell, and im nervous of making a decision that i later on will regret :/
Thanks to all who contribute to this post before hand. :)
Ok so just by reading your metamagic feats you are looking at. You might want to go with an admixture wizard focused on fireball.
You can use your higher level spells for cold rimed fireballs and still have plenty of room for the create pit,grease,wall,black tentacle and SM control thing you seem to be looking for.