|
According to the PFS Organized Play Rulebook:
"In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list."
I have a question regarding this as it has come up at a past game and I need to clarify this situation. If a copy of the rules in question are present at the table, but not in the direct possession of the player using the rules, can this be grounds for a GM to state the player cannot use the character or special ability at the game?
I draw this point out because I travel often to conventions with friends. When we travel, not all of us own tablet readers or laptop computers that we can easily use to transport PDFs to review at a table. Also, when you consider the functionality of traveling, it quickly becomes impractical for players to carry their ENTIRE LIBRARY of PFS approved sources with them to remote conventions.
To this point, I've often brought my tablet reader with all materials loaded onto the reader and could produce it to a GM if a question was brought up regarding an ability that either I or someone I traveled with had a question about.
However, within the past year, I saw a GM at a table turn to a player who was in this same position and was told that both players had to have their own separate materials present in order to have them count towards game play. Although I understand the spirit of the rules and that PFS is a marketing tool to promote the Pathfinder game, I'm not certain that in this situation the "spirit" of the Pathfinder Society is being supported.
Could I get some form of official ruling on this issue?
Tarrintino
Director of Brand Strategy
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As long as the GM can reference a legally obtained copy of the original source material should she wish to see a rule with which she is unfamiliar, I don't think anyone is concerned about who actually owns it or whose iPad the information is stored on. That said, the rule as printed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play is phrased as it is to encourage all players using Additional Resources to take responsibility for providing their own reference material at every game instead of hoping someone else has it on hand should the GM question it.
|
To add onto Mark, I noticed you mentioned Conventions.
The idea is that you have the Source material at hand at the table you are at.
At home games this is not a problem, but once you start going to conventions if you don't have the source material at hand, no matter who owns it a GM may disallow it. If your friend is at the table with you with the source material you will be ok, but if he is on the other side of the room or wandering around the convention then it is not at Hand at the table so don't be surprised if a GM is not familiar with it he will disallow it.
Also no matter who has the source at the Table, you need to make sure you Know what the Source is, a GM is not going to waste time searching through a ton of PDFs if you can't point it out.
|
|
I had this happen at Paizo Con, but it was expounded by the fact that the fellow created a brand new character at the Hero Lab station (which allows all legal options) and had a couple abilities that he didn’t know what they did, and didn’t know what book they came out of.
I felt bad, but I couldn’t let him use an ability that was, “I think it does XYZ.”
He didn’t even know if it was a feat, trait, alternate racial trait, racial trait, or class ability.
Hero Lab doesn’t print out the text of an ability, or its source. It doesn’t even label what the ability is (feat, trait, et. al.)
So please, please, please, if you are using Hero Lab to create a brand new character, make sure you make relevant notes as to what your abilities do and the source of those abilities.
I’m willing to be lenient on having the source for brand new players who basically got ambushed by Hero Lab in such a fashion, but I can’t allow the use of an ability that nobody definitively knows what it does. And that only ends up angering the new player, “But Hero Lab let me pick it!”
Note that Hero Lab can actually print out the ability description--that option, however, has to be turned on under the setup for the portfolio.
True, I just didn't want folks thinking it can't work at all. And why in the world would anyone use print outs from Hero Labs that aren't on a custom character sheet!?!
;^)
I love the program, but their default sheet is..seriously lacking.
And of course I still support the PFS policy for having source materials on hand. Even a good summary doesn't always answer ruling issues for a particular ability at the table.
|
|
True, I just didn't want folks thinking it can't work at all. And why in the world would anyone use print outs from Hero Labs that aren't on a custom character sheet!?!
;^)
I love the program, but their default sheet is..seriously lacking.
And of course I still support the PFS policy for having source materials on hand. Even a good summary doesn't always answer ruling issues for a particular ability at the table.
I’m betting that the 3rd party custom sheet is not available at the Hero Lab run stations at the Big Cons.
Hmm, perhaps an educational opportunity for Con organizers, since there are custom sheets actually available directly in the Hero Lab Updates menu. But that's probably best as a separate thread.
I’m betting that the 3rd party custom sheet is not available at the Hero Lab run stations at the Big Cons.
They are all fully installed and available to anyone who wants to use them. We had a number of people using them at PaizoCon. This will again be true at GenCon.
EDIT: I'll also ask the guys to enable the option to print all the ability descriptions by default, just so that info is present for newbies.
I think having that set to "Yes" by default is a very good change. I know I always automatically go in and set it as a default on my Hero Lab installs. Now you just need to get them to add a Source reference!
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
|
EDIT: I'll also ask the guys to enable the option to print all the ability descriptions by default, just so that info is present for newbies.
Hey Rob, any chance of making the default core book only? A lot of those newbies also don't have any of the books, and it'd go a long way towards making their characters legal to start with.
Now you just need to get them to add a Source reference!
I know that's on the todo list. I'm just not sure where it is relative to everything else on the list. And it's probably something to take to a new thread if you want to discuss it further. :)
Hey Rob, any chance of making the default core book only? A lot of those newbies also don't have any of the books, and it'd go a long way towards making their characters legal to start with.
That becomes very fiddly for anyone other than a newbie, since all the appropriate options need to be chased down and properly enabled. And there are at least as many seasoned veterans using the Character Creation Stations for advanced characters as there are newbies.
Another key point is that newbies *love* wading through the long lists of stuff at the Character Creation Stations. Seeing all those options gets most of them more fascinated with the game, based on what I've witnessed. That's great for Paizo's prospects of selling more books and great for establishing Hero Lab as a compelling value. I'm reluctant to eliminate that for a very questionable benefit.
If you want to discuss this topic further, I'm happy to do so, but please start a new thread to avoid further hijacking of this one. :)
|
|
Note that Hero Lab can actually print out the ability description--that option, however, has to be turned on under the setup for the portfolio.
Hero Lab, even with the detailed description enabled, is not a legal resource in order to use non-core material.
Even if you had a hero lab generated character with all the ability descriptions listed, you would still need the book or watermarked pdf in order to use the material per the additional resources page. But the same would be said about the PRD and SRD.
Hero Lab, even with the detailed description enabled, is not a legal resource in order to use non-core material.
Even if you had a hero lab generated character with all the ability descriptions listed, you would still need the book or watermarked pdf in order to use the material per the additional resources page. But the same would be said about the PRD and SRD.
Sure, that's why I noted such in my very next post...
|
|
Imper1um it is not meant as a "anti-cheater" measure. It is meant as everyone has stated:
So a GM can reference a legally obtained copy of the original source material should she wish to see a rule with which she is unfamiliar.
That is why it is there.
If you don't have a source at the table, then a GM can't look it up, then the GM can't run it correctly. It is not about catching cheaters.
|
|
I'm confused...you just defined cheating...and said what I said, in shorter terms.
If its unfair, its cheating. I'm confused on why you think I'm arguing with you.
I think what Dragnmoon thought you meant by cheating is that the rule is in place as to catch people with un-watermarked PDFs for example. But the truth is the rule is mostly so that the GM has a way to validate a rule he is unfamiliar with in case of dispute.
I think you were both talking about the same thing in different ways. :)
|
|
Here's the thing:
This is supposed to be an "anti-cheater" measure. See, the thing is, the spirit of this rule should be used only if a GM feels that someone is trying to get an unfair advantage over monsters or other players by: using an ability incorrectly, using an ability that may be banned in PFS, or using an ability that does not exist in the first place.
This rule should not be used to hard-police every single player that uses non-primary source material (PFRPG PH, PFS FG, and PFS SoS). If you have a GM trying to be an arse about this, I recommend that you politely tell the GM it is causing an issue with timing, and if the GM insists, that you should comply with the request. If you cannot comply with the GM's request (by being unable to retrieve the source material), simply ignore the ability for that session, and then look it up later. If a player has an issue, please politely ask the GM to arbitrate in this decision, iterating that this process causes way too much time.
In short words: Don't be a dick. If you're policing everyone, no player will want to play with you, and no GM will want to sit down at your table.
When a player makes the choice to not obtain campaign legal reference material for anything from the additional resources, they are also making the choice to only use material from the core assumptions to make their character.
The campaign staff has set this rule for several reasons. How is this policy unfair?
A brand spanking new player will either have enough material to absorb from just from the CRB to not care about anything from the additional resources, or they have friends that will share their legal reference material when they play together.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I'm confused...you just defined cheating...and said what I said, in shorter terms.
If its unfair, its cheating. I'm confused on why you think I'm arguing with you.
You're confusing malice with ignorance.
Take one of my favourite spells snapdragon fireworks. Broadly speaking, the saving throw negates the dazzle and halves the damage. It's also not a core spell. Rey uses it a lot. I have a copy (well the PDF available) if the GM needs to check the spell.
If I don't keep a copy handy, the GM doesn't know the spell, and I forget (actually forget not 'forget' that the spell has a save) then my ignorance is disruptive. That's different than lying intentionally to say the spell doesn't have a save.
Likewise, if the GM misremembers the spell and thinks 'save negates' applies to damage, I need a copy of the spell to prove he's remembering it wrong. His misremembering would be no different than my misremembering; ignorance, not malice.
It's also handy with confirming character builds. Half-orcs have (iirc) 3 methods of gaining a bite attack racial trait, alternate race trait, feat. (and rage power, but we'll leave that out for the moment.) If I see he has a bite and two traits, do I know if he spent the feat, took the racial substitution, or made a mistake? He has to be able to show and tell me where it came from. If he can't, then he can't use the bite. It doesn't matter if he's forgetting ro cheating. The rule is to preserve game play.
|
|
@Matthew: Yes, indeed, in that situation, I would say that is AOK, which is perfectly fine. I'm AOK with that. However, having a GM that is asking for this rule to be followed for everything (requiring proof for every thing that a player has), can slow down the game considerably. For example, the "Manuver Master" Monk Subclass from the Ultimate Combat with "Flurry of Maneuvers." Someone (another player) called me out on that I couldn't do two grapple checks in one round (which you can do), but it took me about 3-5 minutes, holding back the game the entire time, for me to break out the book, even though I was explaining it fully, and knew the full inner-workings of the ability. I make sure I maintain the ability to reference anything within 5-10 minutes of it being called out, but if someone is being a policeman with every little ability they haven't seen (even though it is being explained fully), then it slows down the game.
I run a very wacky Bard/Alchemist in PFS that has 4 total Archetypes (1 for bard and 3 for alchemist). What I did is I took my physical books (APG, UM, UC) and photocopied the pages from there. I used a 3-hole punch to add them to the back of my character's binder. Now if a question arises, I just pull the relevant pages out. No need to be flipping through books.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
@Imper1um,
To be honest? I feel if you're pulling from something non-core and spread across multiple books, it's the 'price' of playing that.
To go back to snapdragon fireworks Once Rey gets the spell 'up and running' he can pop off one a round as a move action. To someone who doesn't know the spell, it can look like Rey's throwing two spells a round (a firework and another spell). I expect at least one person per session to go "How are you doing that?" and can pull up the spell description on the mini. (immediately via HeroLab, via the correct book for a little longer time) If I'm GMing and you do flurry of manuvers, I don't care how well you describe it* I'm going to want to see it. If it slows the game down for a bit, so be it.
*
|
|
Here's the thing:
This is supposed to be an "anti-cheater" measure. See, the thing is, the spirit of this rule should be used only if a GM feels that someone is trying to get an unfair advantage over monsters or other players by: using an ability incorrectly, using an ability that may be banned in PFS, or using an ability that does not exist in the first place.
This rule should not be used to hard-police every single player that uses non-primary source material (PFRPG PH, PFS FG, and PFS SoS). If you have a GM trying to be an arse about this, I recommend that you politely tell the GM it is causing an issue with timing, and if the GM insists, that you should comply with the request. If you cannot comply with the GM's request (by being unable to retrieve the source material), simply ignore the ability for that session, and then look it up later. If a player has an issue, please politely ask the GM to arbitrate in this decision, iterating that this process causes way too much time.
In short words: Don't be a dick. If you're policing everyone, no player will want to play with you, and no GM will want to sit down at your table.
I assume that players have the books, per the rules. I don't start by inspecting their libraries.
However, if it becomes clear during game play, that they are using the PRD online or worse the d20pfsrd, or the PFRPG RD in lieu of a book or watermarked PDF (printed or digital) then I have to call them on it.
|
Ultimately, it comes down to what is really needed by this ruling, and should be handled on a case-by-case basis. A GM should only enforce this if they feel something wonky is going on (doing too much damage, too many actions, etc). A player should discuss this with the GM if they have an issue with another player. Heck, even as a player or GM, I will look up the reference material myself (d20PFSRD.com is the most amazing site for just this purpose), before I call anything out, letting the game continue.
What the ruling is calling for is two things:
1) Have the real resource available for any non-core ability that your PC is setup to use. If it is non-core, there is no guarantee that every GM you play with, for 33 scenarios, will know and fully understand that ability, and the source material is there to clarify the ability.2) No matter how well you explain the ability, you are not the rulebook, and it is eminiently possible for your explanation to be incomplete, or just that, like me, the GHM needs to see the written version to understand it. The longer it takes you to verbally describe the ability, the less likely I am to be able to fully understand the ability. Let me read it, from the up-to-date source, and I am much more likely to understand and adjudicate it correctly.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
Imper1um it is not meant as a "anti-cheater" measure. It is meant as everyone has stated:
So a GM can reference a legally obtained copy of the original source material should she wish to see a rule with which she is unfamiliar.
That is why it is there.
If you don't have a source at the table, then a GM can't look it up, then the GM can't run it correctly. It is not about catching cheaters.
That's not quite the whole story, though. Mike (or possibly Mark) has said that is OK for friends who always play at the same table to share a single resource (although they would prefer it if everybody had their own copy). They have not said it is OK to use non-core materials if you hadn't planned to have the resource available, but somebody else at the table (or even the GM) just happened to have a copy handy.
Would I allow something from the Advanced Player's Guide without checking? Probably. Would I allow a newly created Kitsune character without asking if the player had both the boon and the Advanced Race Guide (or Dragon Empire's Gazetteer)? Definitely not. Would I insist on seeing the resource in question, or even check for anything other than brand new characters? Only if I had 'probable cause'. While the racial boon explicitly states that a copy of the supporting material must be brought to every session, I'm not going to rigidly enforce that.
I don't need players to provide me with access to most resources - I've got PDFs of all the rulebooks on my tablet, and a fair selection of the other booklets (together with my hardcover rulebooks) in a roll-around case that sits beside the table when I'm judging. But while I'm not going to treat my players by default as though they are cheats, I could ask any player to show they had the supporting material available, and disallow use of the feat/ability/weapon/trait/... if they can't do so, even though I know (or at least think I know ...) just how it works.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Last week, I was playing in a game, and there was a player who had a character with a oracle curse from Blood of Angels. When he used an ability from his curse, he pulled out a photocopied sheet of paper from the book with the ability underlined. Before the GM asked.
The GM was a Venture-Captain, holding an iPad with every single book on it. Sure, he could have spent the time to find the pdf. The player could have even had a tablet with the pdf on it. But instead of taking that time and disrupting the middle of combat, the player had spent a minute to prep when he made this character. The GM looked at the ability for 10 seconds, and gameplay carried on without a glitch.
This is the absolute gold standard of additional resources. The point of the additional resources rules is to facilitate gameplay, and for everyone to have a good time.
|
|
A lot of non-core material is really powerful, which is why people want to use it.
If someone presents me with a game breaking ability, I don't think it's a lot to ask that the player have a water marked copy/print out of a single page from the PDF/book.
If it's extremely powerful and game breaking, yes I need to see it.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
Last week, I was playing in a game, and there was a player who had a character with a oracle curse from Blood of Angels. When he used an ability from his curse, he pulled out a photocopied sheet of paper from the book with the ability underlined. Before the GM asked.
I'm in the process of doing pretty much this for my Pathfinder characters. The first step is to create a cover sheet listing all the non-core options I'm using for traits, feats, spells, items, abilities, and the like, complete with page references. Then I print or photocopy the relevant pages, highlight appropriately, and put them all in a single heavyweight sheet protector that goes in the character folder.
This is part of my self-improvement drive to be a better player by the time Pacificon rolls around. Another part is to create a single-page summary sheet for each character, listing the most commonly-used details. The goal is to mostly avoid flipping through the character sheet to find answers (with the bonus that I don't forget to add in that extra +1 to damage from 'Dirty Fighter' ...)
The less time I waste at the table, the more time there is to have fun.