I don't know about synthesists (leaning towards no), but an eidolon can most certainly gain the benefits of a magical manual or tome, provided it can read.
RAW, seeing as the synth explictly states the summoner and eidolon are one creature and cannot be targeted seperately I would go with a yes.
RAW, seeing as the synth explictly states the summoner and eidolon are one creature and cannot be targeted seperately I would go with a yes.
On the other hand since the synthesist eidolon is not a seperate creature, if the synth uses a tome, and dismisses the eido, wouldn't he benefit from the tome since it was him who used it? The eido is basically a temp buff/replacement, so i don't think it should apply that way.
Of course, i also don't think the eido should be able to use it on the normal one. It's a class feature, and statted that way with the intent of balance in mind, but this last bit is just my own opinion.
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A summoner and his eidolon (with the exception of the synthesist) are separated creatures, so I don't see any reason why a eidolon wouldn't benefit from tomes or wishes raising its stats (same thing for a familiar or a animal companion [if it can read the tome some way]).
A synthesist and his eidolon are a fused creature, so the eidolon can't be targeted separately and can't benefit from reading the tomes as, in that situation, the target would be the summoner as he is the one controlling the fused being.
Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.
When the summoner reach 16th level he can use Split Forms:
Split Forms (Su): At 16th level, as a swift action, the synthesist and his fused eidolon can split into two creatures: the synthesist and the eidolon. Both have the same evolutions. The synthesist emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon.
The synthesist can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to his summoner level. He can end this effect at any time as a full-round action. For the duration of this effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the summoner's class level. This ability replaces merge forms.
A that point the eidolon can be targeted separately, but reading a tome in 16 (or even 20) round increments will require a very long time.
This heavy book contains instruction on improving memory and logic, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of 6 days, she gains an inherent bonus from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her Intelligence score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
It say a minimum of 6 days and no maximum, so it is conceivably possible for the eidolon to read it, but at the rate of 20 rounds/day it will require 1440 days. :P
in the case of a Synthesist I would say you add it to your base scores, since an eidolon replaces physical scores completely you are out off luck, mental scores work normally though. Othherwise an eidolon should be able to benefit normally.
RAW, seeing as the synth explictly states the summoner and eidolon are one creature and cannot be targeted seperately I would go with a yes.On the other hand since the synthesist eidolon is not a seperate creature, if the synth uses a tome, and dismisses the eido, wouldn't he benefit from the tome since it was him who used it? The eido is basically a temp buff/replacement, so i don't think it should apply that way.
Of course, i also don't think the eido should be able to use it on the normal one. It's a class feature, and statted that way with the intent of balance in mind, but this last bit is just my own opinion.
How is that any different than the summoner wearing a +6 belt of strength, getting the bonus while the eidolon isn't around, then when the eidolon is around its STR getting the bonus? They cannot be targetted seperately so they both get the bonus, oh well, RAW is funny like that sometimes.
Typically STR is a dump stat for a synth, at best doing this gets the summoners STR back to a "normal" level at a pretty significant monetary cost and creates a MAD situation as the summoner has to invest in multiple attribute gear if they decide to go this route.
in the case of a Synthesist I would say you add it to your base scores, since an eidolon replaces physical scores completely you are out off luck, mental scores work normally though. Othherwise an eidolon should be able to benefit normally.
That would be fine if it were just the summoner reading it, but the OP specifically said reading it with the synth eidolon "worn." For good and bad, they are two seperate entities tied together and the rules specifically state that what happens to one happend to the other with a few specified exceptions.
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The Synthesist ha so many special rules that it is always a guess to attempt to decipher how it work by RAW.
By RAI tomes, wishes raising stats and similar effects are meant to work on one creature. "Doubling" the benefit because a fused creature has read/used them is strongly against RAI.
You can say conceivably that reading the book while fused will affect the eidolon physical stats as they are the stat in use, but I doubt that was the intention.
How is that any different than the summoner wearing a +6 belt of strength, getting the bonus while the eidolon isn't around, then when the eidolon is around its STR getting the bonus? They cannot be targetted seperately so they both get the bonus, oh well, RAW is funny like that sometimes.
Inherent bonuses are completely different from enhancement bonuses.
in the case of a Synthesist I would say you add it to your base scores, since an eidolon replaces physical scores completely you are out off luck, mental scores work normally though. Othherwise an eidolon should be able to benefit normally.That would be fine if it were just the summoner reading it, but the OP specifically said reading it with the synth eidolon "worn." For good and bad, they are two seperate entities tied together and the rules specifically state that what happens to one happend to the other with a few specified exceptions.
I would say the one reading it would gain the benefit though, since the fused eidolon keeps your mental attributes you would also be the one benefiting from 'reading', in my opinion. Suggesting that the effect should be functioning for both I'd toss right out off the window as I think most GMs would. On the other hand one could conceivably assume that you can target and increase the eidolon's stats with wishes.
Not an issue for my campaigns since I decided to rework the summoner from the base up, it seems to be causing too many problems all around, balance, complexity and flavor, it just doesn't feel right. Synthesist seems even worse.
I do agree there are numerous "special" rules for the synth, but the other side of that is they typically were "broken" because the designers weren't working with the writers and all sorts of issues arose. Add in word count and a deadline and we have an archtype that really deserved and requires twice the space it got to get working correctly, and well, it didn't work as written as some intended.
RAI, yes the tomes are intended to work on a single creature. But you'd have to be either ignorant or a "synth hater" to not understand the synth mechanically is one creature. The huge glaring difference with a synth is the eidolon isn't actually ever running around by itself for the "2 creatures" getting the buff arguement. RAW, the "fluffy two" are one. If you want to nerf synths more in your game, sure go ahead and rule the summoner only gets the bonus. I'll go with it it if they read the tome themselved without the synth "suit," if they say the spend the time reading it with the synth "suit" on I'll let them have it in battle form, cause that is really what the archtype is about isn't it? And the rules as written, now before some possible errata/FAQ, back it up. In my home games I'll even let the summoner have it when the suit is off, cause the rules say it works. It's far from some gamebreaking issue, and would be the least of my worries in a game at the level it could be afforded.
Mechanically the synth is no more 2 creatures than a barbarian is, they both have 2 states for a class ability "on" or "off." Just because the synth's fluff is based on the summoner doesn't mean they should be penalized for the fluff. The synth has been nerfed repeatedly, sometimes too much. They are an archtype that is basically shoe horned into a melee role and then were beaten down due to poor editing and rules compatibility. Do you really believe that the tome shouldn't work on the "on" state when the "on" state is the main focus of the archtype??
Reality is I have very little confidence with the Paizo rulings for the synth, it was a really cool idea, but there were too many people in the kitchen "cooking" that made it a mess from the get go. And all they have been doing is throwing bandaids on it, since as it being an archtype, means in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter all that much to devote the resources to "fix it" properly in comparison to basically everything else they have on their plate. Not to mention the crew themselves seem divided on it.
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Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?Just as a Str11 character wearing a belt of strength +2 bumps him to Str13 and allows him to take Power Attack, you can do this. You just couldn't use the feat without the belt/eidolon-suit.
What happens when a synthesist gains inherent bonuses to physical stats before he has split form? Is his eidolon suit's stats increased or his own or both?If you apply the inherent bonus to the summoner's physical ability score, that ability score is replaced by the eidolon's ability score. So if you want to apply an inherent bonus to your eidolon-suit's physical ability score, use the item/spell/etc. while fused so it applies the bonus to the eidolon's ability score.
So if you want to apply the modifier to your (the summoner) physical stats you have to get the inherent bonus while you aren't wearing you eidolon suite.
Very well.
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Synthesist's Eidolons can use tomes and manuals straight from Sean Reynolds to the world =). Thank you guys for all the help.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz44hz&page=7?One-Synthesist-Summoner-Thread- to-rule-them-all#341
Actually what he said was that if you want the bonus to apply when the eidolon is present, you need to read the tome/whatever when the eidolon is on you as a synth. Nowhere did he say that the eidolon can read the tome. I certainly respect SKR and I understand he created the game - with lots of help - but I would argue that since the eidolon is not a creature at all, merely an aspect of the creature brought to this plane by the summoner, that the eidolon cannot gain the benefit at all from tomes and whatnot. Just my 2 cents (and I won't lie, I do not like the class much so flame away).
I do agree there are numerous "special" rules for the synth, but the other side of that is they typically were "broken" because the designers weren't working with the writers and all sorts of issues arose. Add in word count and a deadline and we have an archtype that really deserved and requires twice the space it got to get working correctly, and well, it didn't work as written as some intended.
RAI, yes the tomes are intended to work on a single creature. But you'd have to be either ignorant or a "synth hater" to not understand the synth mechanically is one creature. The huge glaring difference with a synth is the eidolon isn't actually ever running around by itself for the "2 creatures" getting the buff arguement. RAW, the "fluffy two" are one. If you want to nerf synths more in your game, sure go ahead and rule the summoner only gets the bonus. I'll go with it it if they read the tome themselved without the synth "suit," if they say the spend the time reading it with the synth "suit" on I'll let them have it in battle form, cause that is really what the archtype is about isn't it? And the rules as written, now before some possible errata/FAQ, back it up. In my home games I'll even let the summoner have it when the suit is off, cause the rules say it works. It's far from some gamebreaking issue, and would be the least of my worries in a game at the level it could be afforded.
Mechanically the synth is no more 2 creatures than a barbarian is, they both have 2 states for a class ability "on" or "off." Just because the synth's fluff is based on the summoner doesn't mean they should be penalized for the fluff. The synth has been nerfed repeatedly, sometimes too much. They are an archtype that is basically shoe horned into a melee role and then were beaten down due to poor editing and rules compatibility. Do you really believe that the tome shouldn't work on the "on" state when the "on" state is the main focus of the archtype??
Reality is I have very little confidence with the Paizo rulings for the...
As the GM, I would let the synth summoner choose one or the other. He could either have the plus strength from (belt or manual) on his character OR the synth form. But not on both. A regular summoner has to choose one or the other so would a synth. If he chose to read the manual and wanted it applied while in synth form, fine--but he would not get it when not in synth form. The rules specifically say the summoner and eidelons strength are separate. So this is a cheese attempt at getting a plus to the summoner strength that carrys over to the eidelons. If the str 8 summoner had a plus 4 belt to bring their strength up to 12 and then wants to carry that four over to their eidelon I would say no---that is the summoners strength. The fused form uses the eidelon strength.
actually thinking about it--I would probably be more flexible with the belt than the tome. I would probably let the character have the belt in both forms. after all the summoner could just take the belt off--cast his eidelon and then put the belt back on.
But the tome would be applied to one or the other. If you read it in synt form--it applied to synth form and you lose it when you are not fused. If read when not fused--it is part of your summoners strength and you replace (and therefore lose) it when in synth form.
aye shyne--but that tome then becomes part of your eidelons strength (the strength you are using at the time). so when your eidelon is unsummoned, you would not have it on your summoner. That usually should not be a problem--except if you are attacked in the middle of night or eidelon is banished.
"If you apply the inherent bonus to the summoner's physical ability score, that ability score is replaced by the eidolon's ability score. So if you want to apply an inherent bonus to your eidolon-suit's physical ability score, use the item/spell/etc. while fused so it applies the bonus to the eidolon's ability score"
from your link of seans above--so the bonus goes to the eidelons ability score and would not be available when it is unsummoned. sounds fair to me
agree on the feat part. On the sleeping with eidelon up, nope. Don't know what cheap magic items you are talking about, but haven't seen any that lets you keep your eidelon summoned while you sleep. best you can do is get a ring of substenance to limit how much you sleep.
Though, if you really want to always have your eidolon summoned, you could simply be an elf so that you never have to sleep.
Well, technically this depends on the campaign setting, but it is still an option for most people.
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Though, if you really want to always have your eidolon summoned, you could simply be an elf so that you never have to sleep.
Well, technically this depends on the campaign setting, but it is still an option for most people.
a) reverie is akin to sleep;
b) in Pathfinder elves sleep;
c) reverie is closed content so it don't exist in Pathfinder.
I think he is speaking of the cheap trick of casting lesser restoration to remove the in game adverse effects of not sleeping. A small thing like starting to see hallucinations after a few days without sleep is not a problem for an adventurer.
Huh, for some reason I thought Pathfinder did that as well. Oh well.