Hello. I'm building a reach fighter, and I'm pondering the viability of enlarge person and the lunge feat into the build. The lunge feat reads that "I may increase my reach by 5 feet". Does this necessarily have to be outward, or can I "increase" my reach inward? For example, a fighter wielding a reach weapon threatens 10' away, but not adjacent foes. Could he theoretically Lunge and attack adjacent enemies by increasing his reach 5' inward?
Say he imbibes a potion of enlarge person. He now threatens at 15' and 20', but not 10' or adjacent. Could he increase it inward to attack at 10', 15', and 20', or would he have to extend it outward to attack 15', 20', and 25'?
Thanks for any help.
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If you're enlarged and using a reach weapon you threaten 10' through 20'. You don't lose threatened squares by becoming larger. And to answer your question; no. Adjacent squares are technically within your reach already, the reach quality just means you can't attack them with that weapon. Extending your reach only goes outward.
If you want to maintain control over adjacent squares with a reach weapon equipped check out spiked gauntlets or Catch Off Guard; you can thwack someone with a gauntlet attack even if you're holding a reach weapon, and you can make an improvised weapon attack with the haft of your weapon to hit adjacent squares.
If you're enlarged and using a reach weapon you threaten 10' through 20'. You don't lose threatened squares by becoming larger. And to answer your question; no. Adjacent squares are technically within your reach already, the reach quality just means you can't attack them with that weapon. Extending your reach only goes outward.
If you want to maintain control over adjacent squares with a reach weapon equipped check out spiked gauntlets or Catch Off Guard; you can thwack someone with a gauntlet attack even if you're holding a reach weapon, and you can make an improvised weapon attack with the haft of your weapon to hit adjacent squares.
Thanks for the quick response. I already have "adjacent" covered via a third party feat my DM has approved, but the main question came from the enlarging, as I'd have a dead zone that I wouldn't technically threaten via the feat. For a poorly diagrammed example:
R R D F X F D R R
R = Reach weapon F = Adjacent square threatened via feat X = My character and D = Dead zone, as the wording of the feat specifies adjacent, not something like "Within your normal reach".
Do you mind sharing the third party feat?
It seems unlikely that it will be better than just taking Improved Unarmed Strike or armor spikes, either one of which "fills in" all the squares missed by your reach weapon.
The dead zone you're talking about doesn't exist. Literally the only squares you stop threatening by picking up a reach weapon are the ones adjacent to you.
To summarize the effects of using a reach weapon:
1. Your natural reach is doubled. For a large humanoid this means your reach extends from 10' to 20'.
2. You cannot threaten or attack adjacent squares with your reach weapon. You still threaten all other squares from 10' to 20', just not the 5' squares.
Pertinent text from the rules:
Reach Weapons
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square
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Do you mind sharing the third party feat?
It seems unlikely that it will be better than just taking Improved Unarmed Strike or armor spikes, either one of which "fills in" all the squares missed by your reach weapon.
The dead zone you're talking about doesn't exist. Literally the only squares you stop threatening by picking up a reach weapon are the ones adjacent to you.
To summarize the effects of using a reach weapon:
1. Your natural reach is doubled. For a large humanoid this means your reach extends from 10' to 20'.
2. You cannot threaten or attack adjacent squares with your reach weapon. You still threaten all other squares from 10' to 20', just not the 5' squares.
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures: Very large creatures take up more than 1 square.
Creatures that take up more than 1 square typically have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, meaning that they can reach targets even if they aren't in adjacent squares.
Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
The above quote was taken from the "Big and Little Creatures in Combat" section of the combat chapter. I'm not concerned about when I'm my normal medium size, but more the idea of not threatening squares of up to my natural reach when I am Enlarged, which by rules text of Enlarge Person is 10'. The Near and Far feat I mentioned above takes care of adjacent squares, but not the 10' options, according to my understanding of the rules.
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Actually, per SRD:
Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Therefore, a large creature with a reach weapon does not threaten either at 5 ft range ( adjacent square) or at 10 ft ( next square out) but only 15-20 ft out - third and fourth ring of squares.
To return to the original question: both by basic definition of word "lunge" and by RAW (-increase reach-) i think there is no ambiguity or possibility that Lunge is meant to do anything other than add 5 ft to maximum reach of the weapon, rather than cover the blind spot.
if your GM is open to pre-PF 3.5 material, look up the "Short Haft" feat.
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The dead zone you're talking about doesn't exist. Literally the only squares you stop threatening by picking up a reach weapon are the ones adjacent to you.
To summarize the effects of using a reach weapon:
1. Your natural reach is doubled. For a large humanoid this means your reach extends from 10' to 20'.
2. You cannot threaten or attack adjacent squares with your reach weapon. You still threaten all other squares from 10' to 20', just not the 5' squares.Pertinent text from the rules:
Reach Weapons
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square
Sorry, the enlarged character with reach weapon does not threaten the squares at 10 feet. From the equipment section:
"Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away."
Huh. My group's been playing reach wrong for a long time, then. This week's session ought to be interesting.
Yeah. The fact that Large creatures with Reach weapons fail to threaten first 5' or 10' is one of things that provides somewhat of a balance check on things such as Ogres with polearms. It means that, if your non-reach melee boys get in close enough to the bad dude to hit him, he has to provoke AOOs to get back out to his polearm range, or drop polearm, or burn round for withdrawing. Sure, the reachless combatants will eat those AOOs while closing in - but they'd have similar problems with any polearm-wielding opponent.
Note that things like IUS will allow a large creature to threaten it's normal reach, so will a level of monk. Since they can then kick within their normal reach. Alchemist giving an extra limb would also work, or white haired witch hair archtype. Spiked armor would let them threaten their normal reach as well, since again, they can kick with the spikes.
The part in combat about large creatures ceasing to threaten means that if all they have is a reach weapon they stop threatening. It doesn't mean that the other normal rules for kicking, armor spikes, etc don't still apply if they come into play.
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Note that there is one reach weapon which, with the proper feat tree, threatens adjacent.
Whip with the Whip Mastery feats.
Improved Whip Mastery gives you a threatened area of 5' + your natural reach with a whip. And the whip has 5' beyond that that acts like Lunge without needing Lunge or taking the AC penalty.
Whip, Enlarge Person, Improved Whip Mastery, Lunge:
Threaten all squares 15' and closer, attack to 25' with a -2 to AC.
JasonKain:
I would run it like this:
Enlarge gives your reach weapon the 15-20foot range (as per rules quoted above by others).
Reach would ADD another 5foot temporarily (15-25foot) but not increase the range you do not threaten.
Note: If you had a level of monk (as MDT suggested) you would have a reach of 5-15 with a monk's IUS and 15-25 with a reach weapon (overlap at 15).
- Gauss