Technically not possible. Maybe he meant an Inquisitor?
"Is there enough plundering going on? Yaarrrrrr!"
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Which makes the class not a Paladin.
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Yep, but it's not a Paladin. Paladins are lawful good, which you can't be if you worship Besmara. You can call it Holy Liberator or whatever, but it won't be the Paladin as written in the core book.
You could try to convert an Anarch (CN paladin alternate class) from Dragon #310. It should be simple to make into an archetype.
Iomedae is LG and LGs can't kill kittens.
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Iomedae is LG and LGs can't kill kittens.Unless they're evil kittens.
Cats are evil, kittens are small cats. Kittens may be cute, but still evil.
I am a Paladin, by the way. Now you know the why of things...
You could play an antipaladin (Advanced Player's Guide, possibly with the knight of the sepulcher archetype from Ultimate Combat) of Besmara (evil pirates campaign). Smite Good (and Aura of Vengeance) will probably not get much use, but the variant channeling rules in Ultimate Magic (Weather/Harm - change half the damage caused by channel energy to electricity or sonic) + Channel Smite and/or Selective Channel can help compensate for damage-dealing purposes (in addition to the more widely combat applicable use of Touch of Corruption/Cruelties over Lay On Hands/Mercies). A damphir (Advanced Race Guide) antipaladin (knight of the sephulcher), as well as being thematically appropriate, could even use their Touch of Corruption to heal themself.
As a Cha-based class, anti-paladins also make good potential pirate lords. Intimidate, Profession (Sailor), and Sense Motive are all class skills (10 Int human or other race using their favored class bonus for the +1 skill rank/level); the Buccaneer's Blood campaign trait (Skull and Shackles Player's Guide) is a natural fit.
For non-evil pirates, definitely look at adapting the Paladin of Freedom from the d20srd. Changing the focus from good/evil to chaos/law is probably the biggest tweak necessary after updating it to Pathfinder rules.
I would suggest "Take what you can, give nothing back" as an addition to the Code..... ;D
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I would suggest "Take what you can, give nothing back" as an addition to the Code..... ;D
also the code should be comprised entirely of quotes from "Pirates of the Caribbean" :0-
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Why do people ever so rarely understand that the power of a Paladin is inticately linked to the restrictionsemposed by the Alignment.
And that this balance goes out of the window the second you flip that alignment to "easy" mode, e.g. going chaotic.
Paladin : great responsibility, hard life <---> exceptional powers
everything else : [u]power mongering[/u]. Like the one above. Channel energy with automated wounding(healing (in one go ?), Automatically switching opposition to the (for you) most favourable kind (lo, what happens if other pirates attack you ?)... All the crew become suddenly protected and beneficiaries of your leadership (even the mutinous ones) ? how... fair, with huge crews (all 100 of them )
Nevermind that Besmara is not Anti-Lawful, she just doesn't give a flip about rules. But why should she negate the main drive of her favourite prey ? She is also not the patron of "my pirate crew and me", but the champion of individual (!) freedom. Action by their own free will. Positive benefits by screwed- because it really interferes with "free will" if you hand out follow me cookies. That's called corruption.
Ruleswise : play an inquisitor (because that is what that class is for) or an evil anti-paladin
Hi everyone!
The DM gave me a hint that could play a Paladin of Besmara if I do the adaptation.
But I have no idea how to go on.How to build a CN Paladin?
Some abilities should be changed for sure e.g. aura of good and smite evil
I would change it into aura of chaos and smite lawful since aura of evil and smite good wouldn't fit into a CN Paladin.Can you give me some advice on building and playing such a paladin?
Formerly, when Paizo controlled Dragon magazine they did 3.5 paladin templates for all alignments, including Chaotic Neutral. They called a CN paladin an Anarch. If I were to keep that as a base and craft a PAizo "Anarch" Paladin Archetype it would look something like this: Keep all the base paladin advancement chart base attack, saves(although the anarch presented swapped the high fortitude save progression and the low reflex save progression), and spell progression. The ability progression was as follows:
Class Skills:Bluff,Craft, Disable Device, Intimidate, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (religion),Profession, Sense Motive, Survival1st level: Aura of Chaos, Detect Law, Smite Law 1/day
2nd:Divine Grace, Destructive Strike(The anarch gains the ability to critically hit objects and constructs)
3rd:Aura of Courage, Slippery Mind (as the rogue ability)
4th: Turn Construct (as the cleric channel positive energy, but only to harm constructs, can use on designated objects at his discretion), Smite Law 2/day
5th:Divine Bond (except for bonded weapon exchange the weapon properties axiomatic and holy for anarchic and construct bane)
6th: Spell-like ability:Remove Paralysis (can use all spell-like abilities 1/2 anarch levels + Chr Modifier per day, not each treat as a casting pool 1 use per spell)
7th: Smite Law 3/day
8th: Aura of Resolve
9th: Spell-like Abilities: Remove Curse and Freedom of Movement
10th: Smite Law 4/day
11th: Aura of Anarchy (as aura of justice, just treat as smite law)
12th: Spell-like Abilities:Dispel Law
13th: Smite Law 5/day
14th: Aura of Faith (just change effect to make weapons chaotic aligned)
15th: Spell-like Abilities: Break Enchantment
16th: Smite Law 6/day
17th: Aura of Chaos (change DR of Aura of Righteousness to DR 5/law and keep the rest the same)
18th: Spell-like Ability: Mind Blank
19th: Smite Law 7/day
20th: Chaotic Champion (keep the same as holy champion except change DR and banishment effects to lawful and the maximized channel works on Turn construct ability)
Code of Conduct: An anarch must be of chaotic neutral alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a blantantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining a lawful organization such as a brotherhood or a fellowship). Aside from this an anarch's code is really little more than a lack of code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for the law in others, his status of anarch is secure.
Spell List:
1st: Bane, Bless Weapon, Cause Fear, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Poison, Divine Favor, Doom, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Lesser Confusion, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Law
2nd: Align Weapon, Bear's Endurance, Blur, Darkness, Eagle's Splendor, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Scare, Shatter, Touch of Idiocy, Undetectable Alignment
3rd: Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Cure Moderate Wounds, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Circle Against LAw, Rage, Slow
4th: Chaos Hammer, Confusion, Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Law, Lesser Planar Ally, Poison, Shout
Most of this is from the Anarch presented in Dragon, but I filled in some blanks to make it the equivalent of a Paizo paladin.
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Why do people ever so rarely understand that the power of a Paladin is inticately linked to the restrictionsemposed by the Alignment.
And that this balance goes out of the window the second you flip that alignment to "easy" mode, e.g. going chaotic.Paladin : great responsibility, hard life <---> exceptional powers
Why do people ever so rarely understand that trying to balance crunch (class features) with fluff (alignment) is a hallmark of bad game design? In 1st edition, the paladin had all the abilities of a fighter, PLUS additional abilities on top of that. The idea of the code, alignment restriction, and wealth restrictions was to "balance" the extra abilities. But that was a bad idea then, and it's an even worse idea now, because the Pathfinder paladin is actually balanced despite the code, not because of it -- because the class' mechanical abilities are finally on a par with those of other classes. Paladins now get paladin abilities, but don't get fighter abilities. The alignment restriction and code are therefore nothing but holdovers from earlier editions, and serve no further mechanical purpose.
The second you flip that alignment to "easy" mode, there is no effect whatsoever on the balance of the class design, because the LG alignment does not alter the class' mechanical abilities at all, but rather imposes restrictions on how you play your character.
Look at it this way: if you give my friend Palladio $1,000,000, and you give me a million dollars' worth of yen, then Palladio and I are balanced, money-wise. Requiring Palladio to dress up like a chicken has no effect on that.
Why do people ever so rarely understand that trying to balance crunch (class features) with fluff (alignment) is a hallmark of bad game design? In 1st edition, the paladin had all the abilities of a fighter, PLUS additional abilities on top of that. The idea of the code, alignment restriction, and wealth restrictions was to "balance" the extra abilities. But that was a bad idea then, and it's an even worse idea now, because the Pathfinder paladin is actually balanced despite the code, not because of it -- because the class' mechanical abilities are finally on a par with those of other classes. Paladins now get paladin abilities, but don't get fighter abilities. The alignment restriction and code are therefore nothing but holdovers from earlier editions, and serve no further mechanical purpose.
The second you flip that alignment to "easy" mode, there is no effect whatsoever on the balance of the class design, because the LG alignment does not alter the class' mechanical abilities at all, but rather imposes restrictions on how you play your character.
Look at it this way: if you give my friend Palladio $1,000,000, and you give me a million dollars' worth of yen, then Palladio and I are balanced, money-wise. Requiring Palladio to dress up like a chicken has no effect on that.
You have quite a number of classes balanced by their alignments, ethics, deific relations and even by racial advantages.
Clerics are tied up by their deities and their specific codes - which heavily influence their style of play.Cavaliers are bound by their specific codes. Same for Inquisitors. Druids too. Properly designed witches should be tied to their patrons as well.
The point with the paladin being he gets FAR more than his 1000k worth of money (to use your bland metaphor), he get's casting abilities, special powers ( aura, blessing etc ) tied design-wise to his ability as a champion of good and law and THESE are not balanced by corresponding abilities on the fighter, ranger or barbarian. He gets immunities, heavy armour, supernatural special effects (which he can pick !) and divine casting. Ah right, smite evil... Full weaponry, full armour... Pokemon-mount to boot. His disadvantage ?
He is very close to the straight arrow, the Jimmy Steward of characters. While every ranger, fighter, Barbarian or whatever can be played any which way. Paladins, clerics, Inquisitors, druids cannot... Well, play an anti-paladin. Who obviously does not seem to be as "good" as the lawful good deal... judging from all the attempts to circumvent the alignment.
Or to use your picture : He ges 1,3mil in a highly exchangable currency, at gold standard. While other classes get 1000k, in badly convertible North Korean Yuan. Stuff that is actually not supporting to the character. Or useless in a campaign. elf healing, divine spells, immunities ? Highly useful.
Yes that gets in the way of power-maximizing but is actually a relevant concession to a good story.
If you play Pathfinder to roll-perform, it irks. If you play for the story, it fits the concept. Sorry, all you Paladin-Assassins *grins*
And: Alignment is no "fluff". It never was. A character's attitude is a major choice, providing benefits and drawbacks. Yes, these are harder to quantify and possibly abuse than purely numerical stats and abilities. The designers have kept that system around for more than 30 years.... if you consider it "bad game design", your privilege, but you might possibly consider yourself as part the - mistaken - minority ?
Ingame alignment matters. In Pathfinder. And in most other games RPGs. Too bad for the power-maximizers.
Ingame alignment matters. In Pathfinder. And in most other games RPGs. Too bad for the power-maximizers.
Except that, outside Pathfinder and D&D, there are very few games that have a baked in, codified by the designers, alignment system. Even fewer if you don't count the zillion retro clones that are basically copying AD&D or OD&D.
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Ronin3058,
If you're still around, have some of these posts helped you out?
Let us know how you're doing with your concept.
My 2 cents:
Alignment: CN
Code: Spread chaos, plunder as much as you can, protect the ship and it's crew.
Proficient with all simple weapons, pirate weapons (pirates of the inner sea), rapier, whip, sap, net and medium armor. (no shields or heavy armor)
Class skills: add swim and intimidate, remove ride
1. Aura of chaos, smite lawful, detect lawful
3. Mercy/Cruelty: Same as Paladin ability, but Paladin must choose EITHER gaining a Mercy OR a Cruelty. Once chosen the choice permanent.
4. Channel Energy: Like a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, the Paladin must choose to EITHER Channel Positive Energy OR Channel Negative Energy. Once chosen the choice is permanent.
11. Aura of Justice replace smite evil with smite lawful
14. The weapons count as chaotic for overcoming damage reduction
17. gain DR 5/lawful
20. DR 10 /lawful
All other Paladin features are unchanged
Spells: add Freedom of movement and change all evil related spells to their lawful related equals.
You could also give options to choose EITHER the 'good' auras OR the Anti-Paladin auras.
Sounds fun!
What balances a Paladin with a Fighter is not the fact that the Paladin has to be Lawful Good. The Paladin tends to have superior tanking ability due to self-healing and superior saves, yes. But when not smiting, they are considerably worse at actually dealing damage than the fighter, due to a comparative lack of feats and general attack bonuses, like the fighter's Weapon Training feature. (And even if they're only ever facing evil opponents, a likely enough occurence, they simply do not have enough smites per day to smite them all.) They also have a much harder time maneuvering around the battlefield, what with the lack of armor training to mitigate their full plate.
Similar comparison to Barbarians; Paladins are harder to hurt, but the Barbarian will much more consistently be able to dish out enormous amounts of damage, being able to rage much more often than the Paladin can smite or enhance their weapon with Divine Bond.
Rangers and Paladins? Rangers get comparable spellcasting. They get bonus feats, and vastly superior skills, making them considerably more versatile. Favored Enemy, like Smite, is a combat booster that only works on a limited subset of enemies, but the Ranger's version is always on against those enemies. But the Ranger is less durable, being limited to light or medium armor, and while they have access to healing spells, they are not as quick and easy to use in combat as Lay on Hands.
Cavaliers? If you want to go the mounted route, Cavaliers get their mount immediately, instead of waiting until 5th level. They get bonus feats for greater versatility, and their version of smite works on whatever they want it to, while being less powerful a boost overall.
Besides, Paizo has already rejected the idea that alignment and the code balances Paladin powers; the Antipaladin, particularly a Dhampir Antipaladin who can use Touch of Corruption like Lay on Hands, is more or less the equal of the Paladin in every way, with a code of conduct which is effectively impossible to violate.
a dhampir anti-paladin would be awesome, especially of norgorber. tho i can see both sides of the discussion my thought is that as long as everyone has fun go for it. your code seems fine although in my campaign besmara would have anti-paladins, i can see why paladins would appeal, they are a fun class and if done very carefully would be incredibly rewarding in this adventure path. i for one would like to hear stories from people that have played paladins in this path (even paladins of besmara).
