To cast a level 2 scroll has has a caster level of 3 is the caster level of the scroll + 1.
So the DC is 4. However, I rolled a 1 and so 1 + my caster level of 1 failed.
Do I loose the scroll or is this like UMD where you can retry?
To cast a level 2 scroll has has a caster level of 3 is the caster level of the scroll + 1.
So the DC is 4. However, I rolled a 1 and so 1 + my caster level of 1 failed.
Do I loose the scroll or is this like UMD where you can retry?
Once the scroll is cast, regardless of it failing or not, it is consumed.
However, if the character fails to cast the scroll, they must make a DC 5 Will (or is it a Wisdom?) save, or have the spell cast something completely different or have something go wrong.
There should be a table for it if you fail, but I don't know where it is or what is all on there, though.
I think the rules are unclear as to whether or not it's consumed in that case. The spell is only consumed if the spell is cast, but it doesn't say if failing the check or having a mishap actually counts as casting.
I suspect/rule that a simple failure doesn't count as casting, but a mishap releases uncontrolled magical energy and consumes the scroll.
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Mishap consumes the scroll...the magic to fuel the mishap came from somewhere. (this is opinion based on logic, not rule)
On a failed CL check, the caster fails to activate the scroll and it's not consumed. (this is based upon FAQ located here)
Thanks guys...just what I needed. I totally missed the FAQ entry as well.
I think it's got to consume the scroll, for game balance.
Because otherwise what would stop a Level 1 cleric from casting a True Resurrection scroll? He'd have unlimited tries.
The fact that True Resurrection is expensive and 9th level casters hard to find. That's the sort of item your players can only get if you give it to them.
But then there'd be no reason to have a caster level check at all. Why is there a caster level check, then?
My understanding is that the reason there is a check, is that there's a presumption that higher-level spells are beyond the ken for lower-level characters -- by lack of skill and not simply because they can't afford it.
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Isn't the DC 10+minimum caster level+1?
The DC to cast from a scroll is Caster Level of the Scroll + 1.
If the scroll is say a CL5 Fireball, then the DC is 6. You then make a caster level check (your caster level + d20), against that DC.
If you fail then you need to make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap. If you make Wisdom check then the scroll is not consumed.
I think that pretty much sums it up?
I find it very 'ugly' that you can try and try again with CL check for scrolls and UMD stuff....i really struggle to visualise what is actaully happeneing
It's easy, you're failing to complete the incantation. It's like trying to sound out a word and not quite getting it.
It's easy, you're failing to complete the incantation. It's like trying to sound out a word and not quite getting it.
Reminds me of this scene from Army of Darkness, when he tries to open the book.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Gotta love the way random gamers will be so sure that doing something would break the game, then find out that that's exactly how the professional game designers made it and it hasn't broken the game.
Never gets old. :)
490-491 in the CRB covers all the effects of scroll mishaps.
Scrolls: If I fail my caster level check to activate a scroll, but don't have a mishap, is the scroll used up?
No.
Update: Page 490—In the Activation section, in the first paragraph after the bullet points, add the following sentence: “If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.”
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/30/11
Gotta love the way random gamers will be so sure that doing something would break the game, then find out that that's exactly how the professional game designers made it and it hasn't broken the game.
Never gets old. :)
Yeah tell me about it. Cracks me up every time. :P
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If you try that at my table the a lvl 20 expert chef shows up and gives the whole party a lesson about cheese. In the form of a wine and cheese platter using his scroll of Heros Feast.
There ya go Jiggy.
Less funny when it's accompanied with "...and if you tried to pull that at my table, I'd do XYZ to your character to teach you a lesson about cheese."
Fortunately hasn't come to this thread yet.
Yeah. It's sad really. If my computer was outdoors, I'd probably have palm-shaped tan lines around my face from reading the forums sometimes. :P
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Isn't the DC 10+minimum caster level+1?The DC to cast from a scroll is Caster Level of the Scroll + 1.
If the scroll is say a CL5 Fireball, then the DC is 6. You then make a caster level check (your caster level + d20), against that DC.
If you fail then you need to make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap. If you make Wisdom check then the scroll is not consumed.
I think that pretty much sums it up?
Hm, sounds too easy for my taste. I would definetly add at least 5 to the DC
Hm, sounds too easy for my taste. I would definetly add at least 5 to the DCIsn't the DC 10+minimum caster level+1?The DC to cast from a scroll is Caster Level of the Scroll + 1.
If the scroll is say a CL5 Fireball, then the DC is 6. You then make a caster level check (your caster level + d20), against that DC.
If you fail then you need to make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap. If you make Wisdom check then the scroll is not consumed.
I think that pretty much sums it up?
It's not supposed to be hard. Scrolls are basically one-step down from spell-trigger items. That's kind of part of their charm. A party of PCs can keep scrolls of higher level spells for emergencies (for example, a scroll of teleport or restoration, and NPCs can use them as well. There's a 3rd level cleric in the Red Hand of Doom that casts summon monster III via a scroll. The DC was only like 6, so he could reliably cast the spell 90% of the time.
I don't really see the point of trying to house rule everything to be harder though. It's not like the game is easy anyway. So, so many things that can go wrong. Adding a +25% chance to screw up while trying to cast a scroll doesn't seem like it really adds much to the game.
YMMV of course.
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Hm, sounds too easy for my taste. I would definetly add at least 5 to the DC
Do the math:
If you're one level shy of being able to cast it without a check, you only fail on a 1. If you're four levels shy, you fail on a 4 or less. If you're 10 levels shy, you fail on a 10 or less.
Basically, the difference between your own level and the level of the scroll has to be made up with a d20 roll. Why would it ever need to work any other way? If you really think it's "too easy", refer to my earlier comment: more qualified individuals than yourself set the DC, and the game hasn't broken yet. It's not like it's some new, untested idea that might or might not be balanced. It's known to be just fine.
If you want things to be harder to activate in your games, sure, that's your prerogative. But if you think it's an unbalanced baseline, you're simply wrong.
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But then there'd be no reason to have a caster level check at all. Why is there a caster level check, then?
If you use the scroll in combat it can be very important how many tries you need to cast it.
And remember there is still the DC 5 Wis test (not will save) so an arcane caster with dumped wis failing his caster level check has a real chance to fail the Wis check.
And even if your wis is 14 (rather high for casters who don't have wis as their caster stat) you still have a 10% chance to fail that check.
What strikes my as odd is that a wizard who can scribe scrolls himself has a higher chance for a mishap than a cleric who never before handled a scroll. (If the Cleric has a higher Wis than the Wizard, which is likely)
What strikes my as odd is that a wizard who can scribe scrolls himself has a higher chance for a mishap than a cleric who never before handled a scroll. (If the Cleric has a higher Wis than the Wizard, which is likely)
Clerics make scrolls too y'know. They just spend a feat for it. Roughly 30% of all scrolls were divine scrolls in 3.x and that seems unchanged in Pathfinder (but also not noted).
Also, it's worth noting that it's not about knowing how scrolls work. All casters can use scrolls. It's about pushing yourself beyond your own limits. Unlike spell-triggers, you have to preform a portion of the casting (hence spell-completion). The further that casting is from your current skill level, the higher the % chance you will fail to successfully cast from the scroll.
What strikes my as odd is that a wizard who can scribe scrolls himself has a higher chance for a mishap than a cleric who never before handled a scroll. (If the Cleric has a higher Wis than the Wizard, which is likely)Clerics make scrolls too y'know. They just spend a feat for it. Roughly 30% of all scrolls were divine scrolls in 3.x and that seems unchanged in Pathfinder (but also not noted).
Also, it's worth noting that it's not about knowing how scrolls work. All casters can use scrolls. It's about pushing yourself beyond your own limits. Unlike spell-triggers, you have to preform a portion of the casting (hence spell-completion). The further that casting is from your current skill level, the higher the % chance you will fail to successfully cast from the scroll.
Still it is a shame that there will be no cleric risking to miscast a scroll ever, ideally I'd change it but would not consider it worth houseruling.. if I did it would likely add the spell level of the scroll to the DC of the wisdom check.
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Still it is a shame that there will be no cleric risking to miscast a scroll ever, ideally I'd change it but would not consider it worth houseruling.. if I did it would likely add the spell level of the scroll to the DC of the wisdom check.What strikes my as odd is that a wizard who can scribe scrolls himself has a higher chance for a mishap than a cleric who never before handled a scroll. (If the Cleric has a higher Wis than the Wizard, which is likely)Clerics make scrolls too y'know. They just spend a feat for it. Roughly 30% of all scrolls were divine scrolls in 3.x and that seems unchanged in Pathfinder (but also not noted).
Also, it's worth noting that it's not about knowing how scrolls work. All casters can use scrolls. It's about pushing yourself beyond your own limits. Unlike spell-triggers, you have to preform a portion of the casting (hence spell-completion). The further that casting is from your current skill level, the higher the % chance you will fail to successfully cast from the scroll.
Not every cleric uses Wisdom as their primary stat. A melee cleric might only be casting buffs and heals (and thus doesn't care about DC), and might want to pump their strength instead, for example. Likewise, NPC clerics or clerics in low-point games won't necessarily have the 18 wisdom required to always succeed on that check.
That being said, in general clerics have better odds of keeping anything bad from happening if they misread the scroll, although they have no better (or worse) odds of misreading it in the first place. That's entirely in keeping with a high wisdom, though: Wisdom is associated with paying attention to details, knowing the right thing to do, and doing exactly what you intended on doing - all things which lead to reducing your chance of making a mistake.