Magic Armor Enhancement Bonuses?


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

Why doesn't it make since?

You have listed maximums for total maximum and for the actual enhancement bonus. You do not have a listed max for special abilities.

It doesn't make sense because it's an inconsistency to limit one side of the +10 total and not the other.
There is a practical reason to limit things to +5 enhancement in order to cap AC. There's no practical reason to limit the special properties, so why do it?

To keep the power level of items to a reasonably sane level perhaps?


LazarX wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

Why doesn't it make since?

You have listed maximums for total maximum and for the actual enhancement bonus. You do not have a listed max for special abilities.

It doesn't make sense because it's an inconsistency to limit one side of the +10 total and not the other.
There is a practical reason to limit things to +5 enhancement in order to cap AC. There's no practical reason to limit the special properties, so why do it?
To keep the power level of items to a reasonably sane level perhaps?

To back up that statement you will now have to explain how up to +9 worth of properties can be broken, and I suspect that you cannot.

The primary reason for armour is to boost your armour class, and the enhancement bonus does that for magic armour. How is a suit of heavy fortification ghost touch +2 plate armour broken? How, in fact, is it much superior to a suite of ghost touch +5 plate armour if the person hitting you doesn't threaten a critical?

Bottom line is, against most attacks the higher AC is better.


Heaven's Agent wrote:
Martiln wrote:
By that same logic, the line after ignoring prerequisites where it says "The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory" is as specific as it gets.
That's a general rule. It is applied to all item crafting. As a result it is overridden by the specific rule.

Where in the book does it say that specific rules override general rules? I can't find that anywhere. You're just making assumptions of how it's supposed to work, but unless there's a rule in the rulebook that says otherwise, it is not a rule. However if you're GMing and that's how you think it's supposed to work then by all means go for it, the rest of us will go by what it says in the book.


Martiln wrote:
Heaven's Agent wrote:
Martiln wrote:
By that same logic, the line after ignoring prerequisites where it says "The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory" is as specific as it gets.
That's a general rule. It is applied to all item crafting. As a result it is overridden by the specific rule.
Where in the book does it say that specific rules override general rules? I can't find that anywhere. You're just making assumptions of how it's supposed to work, but unless there's a rule in the rulebook that says otherwise, it is not a rule. However if you're GMing and that's how you think it's supposed to work then by all means go for it, the rest of us will go by what it says in the book.

It doesn't say anywhere that specific overrides general. However, it's a logical necessity to understand the rules. Otherwise, Combat Reflexes (for example) would be useless. Because the general rule is you get one attack of opportunity. If the specific case of a character who has Combat Reflexes doesn't override the general case of "one AoO", then the feat would do nothing for you.

That being said, it's an ongoing debate as to which of those two rules is the more specific. So in this case, it's not clear.


Bobson wrote:

It doesn't say anywhere that specific overrides general. However, it's a logical necessity to understand the rules. Otherwise, Combat Reflexes (for example) would be useless. Because the general rule is you get one attack of opportunity. If the specific case of a character who has Combat Reflexes doesn't override the general case of "one AoO", then the feat would do nothing for you.

That being said, it's an ongoing debate as to which of those two rules is the more specific. So in this case, it's not clear.

True, but Combat Reflexes specifically says it overrules the general rule, but nowhere in the crafting magic arms or armor sections does it say that the special prerequisite overrules the general rule. If it did, I'd go by that instead of the general rule.


Martiln wrote:
True, but Combat Reflexes specifically says it overrules the general rule, but nowhere in the crafting magic arms or armor sections does it say that the special prerequisite overrules the general rule. If it did, I'd go by that instead of the general rule.

Combat Reflexes is just one example, but perhaps not a good one due to the wording of that specific Feat.

The entire rule book is written on the premise that specific overrides general. It is a necessity if the system is to function. Without this understanding, for example, you would suffer an AoO when leaving the initial square of a Withdraw action. You would suffer an AoO when making a 5-Foot Step as well. You could not make an attack at the end of a Charge. This list goes on.

In any situation where two rule contradict, the more specific rule must take precedence. Without this understanding, many of the more common aspects of the game could not function. This does not need to be stated.


Heaven's Agent: While I agree with you regarding Specific overriding General I also disagree with your interpretation on what is specific vs general in this particular case.

My understanding:
The general rule is that you must meet prerequisites.
The specific exception is that you can bypass those prerequisites by increasing the DC by +5 but must still possess the item creation feat.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Heaven's Agent: While I agree with you regarding Specific overriding General I also disagree with your interpretation on what is specific vs general in this particular case.

My understanding:
The general rule is that you must meet prerequisites.
The specific exception is that you can bypass those prerequisites by increasing the DC by +5 but must still possess the item creation feat.

- Gauss

With the other specific exception of the Master Craftsman feat.


The Master Craftsman feat does not exempt a player from the requirement of possessing the Item Creation Feat. It simply provides an alternate method for acquiring that feat.

- Gauss


Guass is correct. Master Craftsman only allows nonspellcaster to qualify for the Magic Item creation feats.

Quote:

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.


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Hey Wraithstrike:

wraithstrike wrote:
Guass is correct. Master Craftsman only allows nonspellcaster to qualify for the Magic Item creation feats.

Guass? Who is this Guass? *chuckles*

- Gauss


I stand corrected, I think back in the Alpha it could substitute, being intrinsically more limited than the original feats. If you have Master Craftsman (Craft: weapons) then you can't use it IMHO to make an amulet of natural armour. You can only use it to make weapons, so requiring two feats seems a bit redundant, especially as a non-caster has many other demands for feats.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
I stand corrected, I think back in the Alpha it could substitute, being intrinsically more limited than the original feats.

Alpha is a considerably different game than Release.

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