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Okay, so I have wanted to play a MT for a while but never did because lets face it... they suck beyond belief. However, I love sorcerers and when I came across the Razmiran Priest Archetype I couldn't help but think this was the alternative to a MT that I had been looking for.
While it doesn't have the spells per day that a MT would, I have any divine spell I need as many times I need it with a single scroll (using the 9th lvl ability). Not only that but say I get a scroll of Resteration I only need to worry about that material component once (when buying the scroll) and never again (baring theft or destruction of the scroll) because the scroll remains unused.
In addition if I have a fairly costly divine focus (life a Mitral Shield) I don't need to worry about Arcane spells with a Material cost less then 250gp. I really can't think of anyway this class is worse than a MT let alone a normal sorcerer. What do you guys think of it?
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Well with a lenient reading of this line here
the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously
whenever he adds a level of Mystic Theurge he adds a level Sorcerer spellcasting for his arcane class AND a level of sorcerer for his divine spell casting class.
Really doesn't work that way but technically an argument could be made for it.
I'm playing a low level Razmiran priest one and he's working out pretty well so far. At 18th level you should have access to 9th level wizard and 8th level cleric spells. Wiz 5 / Cleric 3 / MT 10 only has access to 8th Wizard and 7th Cleric. High level mystic theurge is probably never casting anywhere close to all his spells per day anyways.
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I could not find this False focus bonus feat of the razmiran priest. does somebody know about that feat?
Here's the text of the feat from the Inner Sea Magic rulebook:
False Focus
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability
to cast arcane spells.
Beneft: By using a divine focus as part of
casting, you can cast any spell with a material
component costing the value of that divine focus
(maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that
component. For example, if you use a silver holy
symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide
material components for an arcane spell if its
components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting
of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as
normal. If the spell requires a material component
that costs more than the value of the divine focus,
you must have the material component on hand to
cast the spell, as normal.
Normal: A divine focus has no efect when used as a
component in arcane spells.
I'll be posting this on d20pfsrd.com right now.
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I don't think the OP is arguing that you can qualify for MT by taking the Razmiran Priest Archetype. He is saying that archetype is a good enough alternative to the MT.
He is asking if Razmiran Priest will make a good pseudo MT.
but wouldn't it be silly to be a false priest of a (supposed) god..and actually be a cleric of another deity ?
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In addition if I have a fairly costly divine focus (life a Mitral Shield) I don't need to worry about Arcane spells with a Material cost less then 250gp. I really can't think of anyway this class is worse than a MT let alone a normal sorcerer. What do you guys think of it?
I doubt that a mitral shield with a holy symbol pictured on it count as a holy symbol worth as much as the shield. The symbol per se must be worth up to 100 gp, not the item on which it is pictured or embedded.
While it doesn't have the spells per day that a MT would, I have any divine spell I need as many times I need it with a single scroll (using the 9th lvl ability). Not only that but say I get a scroll of Resteration I only need to worry about that material component once (when buying the scroll) and never again (baring theft or destruction of the scroll) because the scroll remains unused.
RAW it seem to work, RAI? I doubt it. I would extend the limit of false focus to Razmiran Channel too: "If the spell requires a material component that costs more than the value of the divine focus, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.". I think it is only an oversight that the ability don't have this text.
Casting restoration, raise dead and resurrection at no cost is a bit overpowered.|
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Don't forget you can buy 1 charge wands to lower the price even further for 1st-4th level spells and you aren't restricted to the Cleric list. Domains, Druid, (Anti) Paladin/Ranger, Inquisitor, various Oracle mysteries+1 curse and the (Surprisingly useful when dealing with out of class spells) Adept. With Mystic Past Life, you can potentially get non-Cleric/Druid stuff even cheaper.Edit: Can't forget Forbidden Knowledge Paladin can get you stuff from level 1-4 off the Bard list too.
1) That ability make the spell a divine spell only for the paladin with it. For the other spellcasters it is still a arcane spell.
2) Technically a spell in a wand or staff is neither arcane or divine. A wand of CLW work equally well for a cleric or bard. Razmiran Channel work only on divine spells. It is a interesting question if it will work with them or not.
I would allow it but again I would request the caster to provide any component whose price is above the divine focus value.
^Doesn't some of the fluff text imply one of the gods is helping Razmir fake divinity for some reason?
Don't forget you can buy 1 charge wands to lower the price even further for 1st-4th level spells and you aren't restricted to the Cleric list. Domains, Druid, (Anti) Paladin/Ranger, Inquisitor, various Oracle mysteries+1 curse and the (Surprisingly useful when dealing with out of class spells) Adept. With Mystic Past Life, you can potentially get non-Cleric/Druid stuff even cheaper.
Edit: Can't forget Forbidden Knowledge Paladin can get you stuff from level 1-4 off the Bard list too.
I cannot remember her name off the top of my head but i believe the Minor goddess of illusions is playing some complex game involving the false god. the details escape me at the moment as far as whats actually been said.
As clerics don't have to follow a deity but can follow some ideal there could be real clerics of Razmir.
What I'm not so sure is which domains beside magic would be fitting for such a cleric.
As clerics don't have to follow a deity but can follow some ideal there could be real clerics of Razmir.
What I'm not so sure is which domains beside magic would be fitting for such a cleric.
While the Core book supports Clerics of an ideal, it's been stated several times that in the Golarion setting all Clerics do have to have a diety. Home games are completely free to change it, but i just wanted to mention the default. (because Razmir is Golarion based.)
dotting--false cleric
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To alleviate these issues it would probably be best to focus your "cleric" spellcasting on buffs for the most part, ideally out-of-combat. Which is incidentally something the cleric list is quite well suited for.
That is exactly what I was planning on doing. Not only does it open up my spells known, but I can now focus on debuffs and damage spells from the Sorcerer spell list and party buffs and situational spells from the divine lists. Also I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that I can pick up spells that are on the Cleric/Paladin/ect spell list even if they are on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list (although there aren't that many). But that opens ups my spells known a lot.
You just have to mind your action economy when you need to pull scrolls out a lot
Nothing a Handy Haversack wouldn't fix. All I have to do is know what scroll I want and poof its there! Just have to protect it from the damn GM now haha...
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Especially resist the temptation to use a scroll of holy water to generate wealth or setting up at lev 14 a shop with a sign "raise dead for 2500 GP, restoration removing permanent disabilities 500 GP, full "Bring my loved one back package" 3000 GP" - save up to 60% compared to usual offers of clerics worshipping greedy gods", as such payments would be practically pure profit and even lazy GMs would notice 3000 GP+ income a day.
That thought crossed my mind, then I remembered my GM is a good friend of mine that has no qualms with killing my characters (I'm making a Razmiran Priest because he killed my last character). But I don't intend to use it expensive material spells from scrolls that much, just every so often so I can scold the cleric on how pitiful his deity is in comparison to the might of pure Arcane magic.
I had thought of making a razmiran Priest witch (using normal witch rules but fluffing her as razmiran Priest and lerning the false focus as normal feat to produce holy water for free.
I'd thought about playing her in carrion crown.
Perhaps even dip into alchemist to get increased holy water damage.
I could not find this False focus bonus feat of the razmiran priest. does somebody know about that feat?Here's the text of the feat from the Inner Sea Magic rulebook:
False Focus
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability
to cast arcane spells.
Beneft: By using a divine focus as part of
casting, you can cast any spell with a material
component costing the value of that divine focus
(maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that
component. For example, if you use a silver holy
symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide
material components for an arcane spell if its
components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting
of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as
normal. If the spell requires a material component
that costs more than the value of the divine focus,
you must have the material component on hand to
cast the spell, as normal.
Normal: A divine focus has no efect when used as a
component in arcane spells.
I'll be posting this on d20pfsrd.com right now.
I like that very much.
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Don't forget you can buy 1 charge wands to lower the price even further for 1st-4th level spells and you aren't restricted to the Cleric list. Domains, Druid, (Anti) Paladin/Ranger, Inquisitor, various Oracle mysteries+1 curse and the (Surprisingly useful when dealing with out of class spells) Adept. With Mystic Past Life, you can potentially get non-Cleric/Druid stuff even cheaper.Edit: Can't forget Forbidden Knowledge Paladin can get you stuff from level 1-4 off the Bard list too.
1) That ability make the spell a divine spell only for the paladin with it. For the other spellcasters it is still a arcane spell.
2) Technically a spell in a wand or staff is neither arcane or divine. A wand of CLW work equally well for a cleric or bard. Razmiran Channel work only on divine spells. It is a interesting question if it will work with them or not.
I would allow it but again I would request the caster to provide any component whose price is above the divine focus value.
While you are correct, it would seem that since spell trigger items are specifically called out as working with the ability, I would say if it's on ANY Divine spell list, you'd be able to use a wand of it with the ability. Wands of arcane spells not on the Sorcerer list would still be a standard UMD check with no bonuses.
Was there ever an errata to the Lay Healer ability? It replaces a 1st level bloodline spell with a 2nd level spell, at a level where the sorcerer cannot cast 2nd level spells, and the same with a 3rd level spell in place of a 2nd level spell when a sorcerer cannot cast 3rd level spells.
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Was there ever an errata to the Lay Healer ability? It replaces a 1st level bloodline spell with a 2nd level spell, at a level where the sorcerer cannot cast 2nd level spells, and the same with a 3rd level spell in place of a 2nd level spell when a sorcerer cannot cast 3rd level spells.
My guess is that since its replacing those bonus spells, you will know them, but you cannot cast them from your own spell list. But if you have say a scroll of aid, you could cast that without a problem since it is on your spell list.
just my 2 cp.
I would suggest going Half-Elf, because now they rock being sorcerers...
Do you want to be able to cast e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e spell out there? you can cast Paragon Surge, whenever you want that sorc/wizard spell that you don't know, and whenever you want to cast those divine spells, you are a Razmiran Priest who carries many scrolls and a Handy Haversack!
Don't forget you can buy 1 charge wands to lower the price even further for 1st-4th level spells and you aren't restricted to the Cleric list. Domains, Druid, (Anti) Paladin/Ranger, Inquisitor, various Oracle mysteries+1 curse and the (Surprisingly useful when dealing with out of class spells) Adept. With Mystic Past Life, you can potentially get non-Cleric/Druid stuff even cheaper.Edit: Can't forget Forbidden Knowledge Paladin can get you stuff from level 1-4 off the Bard list too.
1) That ability make the spell a divine spell only for the paladin with it. For the other spellcasters it is still a arcane spell.
2) Technically a spell in a wand or staff is neither arcane or divine. A wand of CLW work equally well for a cleric or bard. Razmiran Channel work only on divine spells. It is a interesting question if it will work with them or not.
I would allow it but again I would request the caster to provide any component whose price is above the divine focus value.
I think the intent was clear, even if it was not worded perfectly. I would not punish a player for bad wording.
On the other side buying a 1 charge wand would not happen in my games either, especially if this class was in play.
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I would suggest going Half-Elf, because now they rock being sorcerers...
Do you want to be able to cast e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e spell out there? you can cast Paragon Surge, whenever you want that sorc/wizard spell that you don't know, and whenever you want to cast those divine spells, you are a Razmiran Priest who carries many scrolls and a Handy Haversack!
I thought about doing that, but then I remembered the GM (who is a friend of mine) would have no qualms with smiting me... but that would be so fun as long as I lived.
I cannot help but think that the flavor of False Focus is much different from the actual usability of False Focus - The ability to ignore material costs up to a certain value is pretty valuable, and even if you can't get one more expensive than 25 GP, that can add up. Plus if your DM lets you get a pricier one you can have a few different ones so you only use the expensive one when you need to...
Was there ever an errata to the Lay Healer ability? It replaces a 1st level bloodline spell with a 2nd level spell, at a level where the sorcerer cannot cast 2nd level spells, and the same with a 3rd level spell in place of a 2nd level spell when a sorcerer cannot cast 3rd level spells.Aquatic Bloodline (I think it was Aquatic) alreddy gives a Sorcerer spell at a lower level than it normally is on the Sorcerer list, and the devs have said it was correct
The Razmiran priest ability actually specifies what level spells it grants, whereas the Aquatic Bloodline simply has the normal bloodline progression.
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I cannot help but think that the flavor of False Focus is much different from the actual usability of False Focus - The ability to ignore material costs up to a certain value is pretty valuable, and even if you can't get one more expensive than 25 GP, that can add up. Plus if your DM lets you get a pricier one you can have a few different ones so you only use the expensive one when you need to...
It is actually up to 100gp, the text just gives an example using a focus worth 25gp.
If you take the birthmark trait as a razmiran priest, which worth will that birthmark focus have?
- none at all
- enough to replace components without worth?
- any higher number?
If you take the birthmark trait as a razmiran priest, which worth will that birthmark focus have?
- none at all
- enough to replace components without worth?
- any higher number?
This is completely in the realm of DM fiat, but in my game if you're willing to spend a trait on it, I'd give the birthmark the same worth that a holy symbol a character of your level could reasonably afford to have. So while it wouldn't start out at 100gp at first level (probably substituting for a spell component pouch), it would definitely get there, probably no later than 3rd level, possibly by 2nd. At second level it'd only increase your effective wealth by 10%, which is usually within the margin of error for WBL, and it would only get less later.
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If you take the birthmark trait as a razmiran priest, which worth will that birthmark focus have?
- none at all
- enough to replace components without worth?
- any higher number?
I should ask my GM about this, also does anyone know if it is possible to get a Tattoo of a Holy Symbol? Would that count as a Divine Focus if it is a exposed area (Life my face)?
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Birthmark: You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life. This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and as a physical manifestation of your faith, it increases your devotion to your god—you gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects as a result.
Allowing the birthmark trait to work as a focus worth more than 0 gp for the False focus feat beside its other benefits seem too much of a good thing.
A 100 gp focus that can't be sundered, disarmed, stolen and that don't need an hand to use for a trait, plus +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects at the cost of 1 trait?
too much in one package.
Birthmark: You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life. This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and as a physical manifestation of your faith, it increases your devotion to your god—you gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects as a result.Allowing the birthmark trait to work as a focus worth more than 0 gp for the False focus feat beside its other benefits seem too much of a good thing.
A 100 gp focus that can't be sundered, disarmed, stolen and that don't need an hand to use for a trait, plus +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects at the cost of 1 trait?
too much in one package.
I had forgotten it had that saving throw bonus, and thinking back even allowing it to work as a component pouch is as good as a feat (Eschew). So I'd have to reverse my original inclination and agree with Diego Rossi on this.
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I had forgotten it had that saving throw bonus, and thinking back even allowing it to work as a component pouch is as good as a feat (Eschew). So I'd have to reverse my original inclination and agree with Diego Rossi on this.
That is reasonable, but what about a Tattoo with a value of 100gp? Maybe even double or triple the price because it cannot be removed from your person?
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I had forgotten it had that saving throw bonus, and thinking back even allowing it to work as a component pouch is as good as a feat (Eschew). So I'd have to reverse my original inclination and agree with Diego Rossi on this.That is reasonable, but what about a Tattoo with a value of 100gp? Maybe even double or triple the price because it cannot be removed from your person?
Depend on the campaign and your GM.
If you were to take the birthmark trait after character creation (so taking the Additional trait feat), get a tattoo instead of a birthmark in a visible position like your hand and if there were the requirement to show the hand when you cast the spell I would probably allow it.
the drawbacks and limits would balance the benefits and it could be brought in play in a organic way.
Maybe you could even leave a trait "open" (unused) at character creation and get your tattoo later in your character life, like a sign of acceptance from a secret organization.
I would say: ask your GM.
@ pad300
When using items like wands and scroll spells with St aren't so good, as they use the minimum casting characteristic for he spell, so the ST difficulty is low, but when using a a staff you get to use your casting characteristic and your actual level. At that point this power shine.
does anyone know if it is possible to get a Tattoo of a Holy Symbol? Would that count as a Divine Focus if it is a exposed area (Life my face)?The Hidden Priest (a Cleric archetype) can use a tattoo as a Divine Focus and mentions:
If a spell requires a divine focus with a specific or minimum cost, the replacement divine focus must be of similar value to be used as the divine focus.
So it's possible to get an expensive tattoo as a Divine Focus, though whether it would work for a Razmiran Priest is up to your friendly local GM.
Also: Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus as part of the components, so if you really want to start twisting the rules you could argue that False Focus turns the need for material components into needing a divine focus, and a level in Oracle then removes the need for that Focus altogether.
But good luck finding a GM who'd go along with that!
Razmiran Channel (Su)
At 9th level, the Razmiran priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended.
This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.
That's actually pretty punchy. They don't have something like stealing from the summoner list, but he could use this, for example, to get access to True Seeing, Sor/Wiz 6, as, Adept 5. Effectively expanding his spells known. Heck, there are a few cleric spells that are probably worth the 1 level gain translated - Murderous Command anyone?
you gain 2 levels net
Overwhelming Presence (9th sorceror to 6th Inquisitor)
all these you gain 1 level net
>snip<
I didn't go through them all because one stood out at me, and that's Animate Dead. Notice how the Razmiran priest has to expend a spell slot "at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he's trying to activate." Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell for Cleric/Oracle, and a 4th level for Sorc/Wiz, so the Priest is not actually gaining anything by casting it divinely. He still has to expend a 4th level spell slot.
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so the Priest is not actually gaining anything by casting it divinely. He still has to expend a 4th level spell slot.
While he still casts it as a 4th lvl spell, the biggest gain he gets from it is not having to know the spell. Instead he can pick another sorcerer spell and use animate dead as a scroll. Essentially giving him a bonus spell.
so the Priest is not actually gaining anything by casting it divinely. He still has to expend a 4th level spell slot.While he still casts it as a 4th lvl spell, the biggest gain he gets from it is not having to know the spell. Instead he can pick another sorcerer spell and use animate dead as a scroll. Essentially giving him a bonus spell.
Oh I'm not discounting the flexibility it gives at all, it's amazing for that. It's just not netting you spell levels is all I was pointing out. It doesn't need too, as it's already an amazing archetype crunch-wise.
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Oh I'm not discounting the flexibility it gives at all, it's amazing for that. It's just not netting you spell levels is all I was pointing out. It doesn't need too, as it's already an amazing archetype crunch-wise.so the Priest is not actually gaining anything by casting it divinely. He still has to expend a 4th level spell slot.While he still casts it as a 4th lvl spell, the biggest gain he gets from it is not having to know the spell. Instead he can pick another sorcerer spell and use animate dead as a scroll. Essentially giving him a bonus spell.
Sorry, I definitely misunderstood what you are going for then. But I am just loving the concept of this Character so far. I am also planing on using Intimidate a lot to lower the defenses of my enemies and it fits with the fluff I'm going with.
My Character is going to be a priest in training (6th lvl) that becomes a full fledged priest once he can start using the Divine spell trigger/completion items (9th lvl). He is also not so sure on his own belies regarding Razmiran but he will continue to follow him and convert others because he loves the increasing power. He isn't going to be to pushy with the conversions and attempts to change hearts through diplomacy mainly, but if that fails he will resort to displays of power and intimidation.
But now that I have the concept down I just need an efficient way to intimidate people! I'm thinking my best bet is wait until 9th lvl and pick up a scroll of Blistering Incentive from the Inquisitor's list.
Edit: I was also thinking about using Dazzling Display tied to Weapon Focus Ray.