I'd say:
Use low-level spells (say, most and 1st and 2nd level) on defensive buffs. These are generally far more effective than actual healing. Get the wizard to do similar.
For higher level spells, go with battlefield control and debuffs. They feel offensive but still lowers the enemy's ability to damage your teammates.
Don't heal with spells _at all_ (unless you have Heal).
too difficult=you die too much.
How much is "too much"? Well that varies from group to group.
I think I would go up in level in a game with a problem, unless the GM went out of his way to fudge the dice against me or just start to make things up.
The OP is an admitted new player. What you are calling for is advanced tactics. I don't expect that much out of new people.
I am still curious to hear exactly what is going on at the table. 1 rounding d10 characters seems extreme.
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My main is a cleric of Serenrae. Just popped 10th level and I went fire/healing domain. At third level I selected heavy armor. That's the only "un-cleric" feat I took as I'm old school AD&D and always liked plate. I mostly "tank" and often have the top AC in any PFS. In my mines eye, the cleric better NEVER go down in a fight and AC is key (at least until eight or ninth level). With my +1 holy keen scimitar I can put in my fair share of hits. I use melee, NOT spells for offence (well there is that little fire ball/wall and such... lol) Get with a friendly wiz to cast enlarge on ya... woot! Most would call me a battle cleric, but that's just pigeon holing. A lessor meta magic rod of reach gets my empowered healing spells to the person who needs it if and when they need it. Other wise I'll channel (get a Phylactery of Pos Channeling for +2d6). The main point is that I built my cleric to fill different roles as needed. I can fight/tank/spell cast(fire)and heal like no tomorrow. The action NEVER stops when your the cleric. My next purchase I'm leaning towards boots of speed. Spendy, but they are fearsome in the hands of an enlarged cleric with full plate / nice weapon / bulls strength. I take out the lessor mobs and keep flank in mind to help your rogue and even the fighter.
And somewhat by default, your voice in the party decisions is weighted.
"Yah, sure.. you all can go ahead and see what's behind that huge door... Me? I'm heading back to camp for the night to recover my healing spells. See you in the morning."
Bet you every gold piece in your pouch the party decides to come back to that huge door in the morning, and maybe even have a PLAN!!!
You don't have to be "THE" leader, but your going to be "A" leader to some degree... you hold their lives in your hands.
IMHO, clerics ROCK! Every month at our local PFS game (often with 30+ people showing up) I'm never at a loss for folks sitting down at my table.
Good points, AhRae.
Wraithstrike:
I do not think the OP stated that any of his/her groups characters are getting 1rounded. That was part of my discussion to indicate how easy it could be to do that with some bad luck. I had that discussion because people were throwing out ideas that were predicated on several rounds of buffing.
The OP did state that they get hammered (or shredded) early in the fight and have to play catch up. My guess is that the surprise round and first round are a major disadvantage to that group and they suffer alot of damage at that point. The OP then has to play bandaid just to keep people alive. That is why I suggested a spell like Obscuring Mist to prevent further damage and let people buff up.
Rogue makes a perception check (and probably makes it) while everyone else fails thiers. Rogue is the only person to act in the surprise round (round 0).
If the paladin is walking at the front (which is where alot of people put the tank) then the paladin gets hammered by the first attack(s) while standing there with a duh look on his face.
Rogue does his thing (probably before the enemy).
Next round everyone else rolls initiative.
The paladin probably has a poor initative roll (I doubt the paladin has a good initative check because why put extra dex on a paladin that is probably wearing plate) then the paladin goes after the bad guys again. Why? because many bad guys in the bestiary come equipped with Improved Initiative.
Paladin proceeds to take another round of damage. With an equal CR (9) battle that means the paladin probably just took 40-80points of damage (bestiary table 1-1 states 40pts avg per round @CR9) between the surprise round and the first round. That is alot of damage for a level 9 paladin before the paladin even has an action.
Wizard and Cleric act before or after the bad guys on round 1. If afterwards they have no chance to prevent the paladin from sucking down alot of damage. If before then perhaps they do.
BTW, the rogue probably didnt do much to the bad guy because A) he needs flanking which he cannot do if the paladin isnt threatening yet. and B) he probably doesnt really have a good way to redirect the monster from beating on the paladin.
Problems in this group:
Lack of perception ability by anyone but the rogue (stated by the OP).
Lack of adequate AC on the paladin (the OP stated the paladin is a greatsword build, this is a known problem with that build).
Solution: stop the damage the moment the OP or wizard can do so in order to play catch up.
Methods: Anything that prevents the bad guy(s) from seeing or affecting the group for a couple rounds. As I stated earlier, Obscuring Mist should be a really cheap tactic.
Start packing a shield (to drop when combat begins). Many greatsword builds do not consider a shield for this purpose but it would mitigate some damage up front until the paladin can start to use other defenses (Shield spell from ioun stone, Fight Defensively, Smite Evil, or Shield of Swings if going that route).
Pick up alot of ranks of perception (Headband of Intellect) and Eyes of the Eagle to boost perception. This will probably not stop the loss of initiative during the surprise round but it will give the paladin an action to start fighting defensively or something else during the surprise round. Thus the paladin can mitigate his damage in the next round.
Finally, increase the intiative bonus. This one is doubtful that itll help in time. The group is level 9 and thus it is another 2 levels before the paladin will have a feat available. Perhaps their GM will allow a rebuild but I am not sure I would suggest this alternative when there are cheaper alternatives available.
- Gauss
I was exaggerating, but it did seem like the pally was down by round 3. I do agree with your ideas though.
Wraithstrike: Sorry, didnt catch the exaggeration. However, by the bestiary table 1-1 it isnt unrealistic at 9th level.
For CR9 Table 1-1 states:
High attack: +17
High average damage: 40.
Assumptions: Paladin with a +1dexterity, +1 NA bonus, +1 deflection bonus, Plate+2 = AC24. FF = 23. All pretty reasonable at level 9.
With a +17 that means a 7 (or 4 on a charge against a Flat footed target) to hit. Not great odds (for the paladin). Now, if this monster has a single big attack or vital strike then a significant portion of those 40 points (full round damage) will occur on the surprise round.
On the first full round 40pts average will occur 75% of the time (paladin still is probably flat footed). That equals 30pts DPR (not including criticals).
The odds are that the paladin will take at least 50points (over half of the average paladin's HPs) in the first two rounds before the paladin has a chance to act. A bit of bad luck and the paladin could take alot more.
- Gauss
It is ok. I didn't exactly word it well enough to make my intent obvious.
I am curious as to what the GM is throwing at the players though.
Wraithstrike:
Do you think the GM is doing something odd? (Either in CR or just buffing the monsters too much?)
In my mind with the situation the OP has set forth this is a possible result of just player mismanagement rather than the GM being harsh. Then again, it could be a combo since there are 2 newbies at the table.
BTW: The OP mentioned fighting alot of evil outsiders. If that is an AP that sounds like CoT. 9th level should be around the 5th module if it is.
- Gauss
I think it is a combination of inexperienced players, and a harsh GM.
I played CoT, but I did not see a lot of ambushes.
PS:Inexperienced can also mean not that great with the system.
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And for the record, I don't heal to top off my allies hit points. I heal to keep my allies from dying. They are either nearing single digits or they are already unconscious.Is there a tactic of how I could play my cleric which would fulfill the role of heal-bot AND spellcasting-cleric?
To the OP, I understand your position. I too was in a party where I went from a secondary front-liner/buffer to a "heal-all the time" cleric.
This was my solution - Summons
As a Cleric you have access to all levels of summon spells, so make use of them!
Summons = damage absorbers = less damage on your allies = LESS HEALING needed!
Don't worry about not having Augment Summoning. You don't need it.
Your summons are not mean as a source of damage, they are there to soak up damage for your party.
Trolls charging down on your party? Just call up a wall of riding dogs using a level 2+ summon monster spell. The trolls will have to take out the dogs to reach your party, buying you time to buff or reposition your party members.
And if your DM is kind, he might rule that Sacred Summons feat works for animal-type celestial/infernal summons too! That means summons coming out as standard actions! Faster summons is always good.
Summons are also able to provide flanking or "walls" to protect vulnerable members of your party. Use them creatively!
Hope using summons helps you with your problem. Good luck!
Morbios, according to the FAQ on WBL you cannot knock down the cost for a whole party. A crafter can only benefit him/herself cash-wise.
The FAQ on WBL is for use in making characters above level 1 who possess item creation feats before the game begins. It says nothing about other characters there, because it doesn't need to - most PCs meet and become allies during the course of the adventure, not before it. Claiming that this extends to items made during play is a fair bit of induction, one I would argue is not justified. After all, if crafted items can only benefit oneself, how can magic items be bought and sold?
I can understand the desire to balance item creation by restricting crafted items to a single PC (such feats can nearly double a party's available wealth), but doing so severely breaks the logic of the game world. In my mind, it's not far off from the following (hypothetical) situation: "I know half the party's down and I could probably use the fallen fighter's dragonbane greatsword to pull us out of this one, but that's his sword so I can't pick it up..."
If party wealth becomes an issue, I'd much rather (as a GM) a) restrict player access to certain feats, or b) put an RP time constraint on them forcing choice on what to do in a given window than make blanket conclusions that bring up questions about the inner workings of the game world.
You're free to interpret the FAQ as you wish for your own table, of course.
Regarding readied actions: I would say it depends on the situation. If a potential enemy is visible then yes, I would say that readied actions are available. It depends on how the GM runs his/her table.
Example: Two guys approaching each other. Guy A readies an action if Guy B does something.
Readying is a special initiative action:
Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.
(emphasis mine)
Readying actions outside the context of combat (initiative already rolled) is dangerous territory, in my mind. Granted, you specified both parties see each other, but in that case both sides are likely "getting ready for" a showdown - in which case normal initiative (no surprise round) is called for, without either side possessing readied actions (as they're essentially just jumping into the fray as soon as they see each other). If Guy A plans to approach B innocently and then attack when close enough, but not vice versa, I'd give B a sense motive vs. A's bluff (or perception vs. sleight of hand if drawing a hidden weapon), and award a surprise round to A if he pulls off the opposed check. That way the awarding of a tactical benefit to one side of the combat is based on differential character statistics, and not bare GM fiat - and if Guy B gets tired of being stabbed in the back so often, he can put ranks in perception/sense motive next level.
This seems most balanced to me. As you say, GM's rule at the table.
The FAQ on WBL is not limited to making characters above level 1. It does state that if a Crafter crafts an item and hands it to a Non-Crafter then the Non-Crafter WBL is at the purchase price of the item and not the crafting price. Anyhow, Im not here to rehash that entire argument.
Regarding Initiative: you are correct, however sometimes GMs do not roll initative even though they can (and maybe should) do so. Initative in those situations can slow down gameplay.
- Gauss
Actually the FAQ specifically says "If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost."
That means at character creation the feats count for items relevant to that feat. Page 400 which is also referenced concerns equipping at character creation
The 2nd paragraph is saying that for total wealth for the party you use the item's craft price, because otherwise the crafter would have get his treasure reduced defeating the purpose of the feat.
Note:It specifically says crafted items, not crafted items used by the crafter so where the wizard make a magic item for himself or someone else it still counts as the same for the "party's overall wealth by level"
If SKR(the rules team) meant for it to mean "crafted items used by the crafter" then he might need to rewrite that FAQ.
PS:I will admit that is a valid reading of the FAQ so we might need another thread for that purpose.
Actually the FAQ specifically says "If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost."
That means at character creation the feats count for items relevant to that feat. Page 400 which is also referenced concerns equipping at character creation
The 2nd paragraph is saying that for total wealth for the party you use the item's craft price, because otherwise the crafter would have get his treasure reduced defeating the purpose of the feat.
Note:It specifically says crafted items, not crafted items used by the crafter so where the wizard make a magic item for himself or someone else it still counts as the same for the "party's overall wealth by level"
If SKR(the rules team) meant for it to mean "crafted items used by the crafter" then he might need to rewrite that FAQ.
PS:I will admit that is a valid reading of the FAQ so we might need another thread for that purpose.
Yeah, that's a valid reading of the FAQ, only if you completely ignore the question being asked, which specifically asks about PCs with crafting feats.
Guys, can we get back to the OP, and discuss WBL and Crafting feats elsewhere?
Actually the FAQ specifically says "If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost."
That means at character creation the feats count for items relevant to that feat. Page 400 which is also referenced concerns equipping at character creation
The 2nd paragraph is saying that for total wealth for the party you use the item's craft price, because otherwise the crafter would have get his treasure reduced defeating the purpose of the feat.
Note:It specifically says crafted items, not crafted items used by the crafter so where the wizard make a magic item for himself or someone else it still counts as the same for the "party's overall wealth by level"
If SKR(the rules team) meant for it to mean "crafted items used by the crafter" then he might need to rewrite that FAQ.
PS:I will admit that is a valid reading of the FAQ so we might need another thread for that purpose.
Yeah, that's a valid reading of the FAQ, only if you completely ignore the question being asked, which specifically asks about PCs with crafting feats.
Steve if I am wrong or I misread something could you explain it? PM me if you wish in order to avoid derailing the thread. I do have a habit of skim reading.