You get your level+Int bombs per day is actually a pretty decent amount. By 10th level where you could have a maxed out fireball you have instead an attack that you can use atleast 10 times a day, does 5d6+int, and hits touch which is not bad at all. In addition you have your buffs that you can let anyone use with a discovery.
Did you happen to miss the feral mutagen?
Or the shear variety of side-effects you can add to the bombs?
Or the 1 minute (!!!) preparation time for extracts?
Alchemical Allocation?
They're also the only class in the game with a semi-reliable method of AoE damage. That sorcerer is going to run out of fireballs much sooner than you will bombs, and you don't have to worry about hitting friendlies.
Or maybe all those yummy simulacrum abilities they can get.
The best poisoner in the game, if that's your thing.
The ability to have your party mates spend THEIR actions to have you buff them, thanks to infusion. Give that fighter a standard action Enlarge Person for himself to use, not you. You have bombs to chuck.
Fast healing discoveries are always nice.
Those are just the things off the top of my head
You can get Stinking Cloud effect (gimped to 1 round for the cloud, though) at level 3. Later on, you can chuck confusion bombs w/o allowing a save. That is about it for hat you can do with bombs to make them powerful.
The melee alchemist that shirks bombs for sneak attack (Vivvisectionist) is much more interesting to me. Can use beastmorph for pounce and flight (and the wings discovery), has greater invisibility on the extract list, and can buff str or dex (whichever you use for attack and damage) with the mutagen, plus add 3 primary natural attacks via feral mutagen.
So those are pretty cool. Sort of like a rogue that actually works.
In any case, the extracts are ridiculously gimped. You have to pay a feat tax just to buff other people, whether you pay it or not you'll still never get to actually mass target people with spells like haste (that is such utter bs), you get no cantrips/orisons, you have no "defensive casting" to avoid AoOs, you have all sorts of trouble "casting" your "spells" in unique environments like underwater... And there are almost none you get at an earlier level due to being a 6-level caster (bard and inquisitor get several; Summoners gets a TON, like 75% of his 3rd level and higher spells are at least down 1 level from normal!), nevermind the other gimpy parts already mentioned. Alchemical Allocation and the level 6 make a twin extracts are very good and alchemist only, so that partly makes up for it, though.
You mention the extracts (spells) and bombs, but you missed out on another really important part, which are the discoveries they can take to either gain or modify new abilities. Feral mutagen for one, when you use your mutagen the alchemist gains 3 primary natural attacks, so starting at lv 2 you can makes 3 attacks per round at your full attack bonus. The alchemist can get quite powerful depending how you build it.
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Probably the most versatile class available.
Want to be a melee fighter type? Cool we can make it happen.
Want to be a ranged type? I can do that too!
Want to be a sneaky rogue/scout? Guess I can be that guy as well.
Want to be the party buffer? Yep, can make that happen as well.
Its a great class, but it does take using Archtypes and specializing in ONE aspect to be all that it can be cracked up to be.
I like handing the party damage dealer the tower shield in a can that is a shield extract :D
Carn. Only the first attack in any round is considered for Sneak attack damage so I see a hole there...
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Carn. Only the first attack in any round is considered for Sneak attack damage so I see a hole there...
Almost right. In fact, the first attack, the second attack, the third attack... and well, all the way up to the number of attacks you can make per round, are sneak attacks.
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Carn. Only the first attack in any round is considered for Sneak attack damage so I see a hole there...Almost right. In fact, the first attack, the second attack, the third attack... and well, all the way up to the number of attacks you can make per round, are sneak attacks.
Otherwise the rogue would severely fall behind other classes.
Bombs are better than fireballs.
* No save against damage
* Has higher saves
* Easily modified by extract (admixtures) or Discoveries.
* Alternate Energy types also do status effects
* work as effective battlefield control as well as damage dealers.
* Dispelling and poison bombs also available
* Works on Constructs
Alchemists are decent skill monkeys, you can have them make clones of themselves which provide more mutagens and more low level extracts. Doppleganger Simulacrum is also boss for being effectively immortal as long as you keep your body safe.
Their extracts aren't bad and with infusion, you can give spells to people that wouldn't normally get them. I can give our Ranger/Barbarian Monstrous Physique IV, Resurgent Transformation, Improved Invisibility, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, Delayed Consumption and Twin Form, so you can be an adequate buffer as well.
Alchemists are versatile and capable, but if they aren't your thing, that's okay. I personally can't stomach Inquisitors, but I know they are pretty good at what they do. I just let other people play them.
Ah right. The ability to give other people Personal range spells, which are generally more powerful than other spells of that level due to the restrictions, can be huge.
alchemal allocation, use a potion without consuming it, also 3 level extract that lets you double duration. Mutagen or cognatagin that adds +4 to a stat and is an alchemal bonus, rather than enchantment. Brew potion at 1st level. I can't wait to play an alchemist next campaign and even built some as monsters for this campaign.
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I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned it, but the mumification discovery is a fantastic defensive discovery which can give a multitude of immunities that other classes don't see till possibly 20th level. Immune to cold, nonleathal, sleep & paralysis by 10th! Thats half of your adventuring career, which if that career occurs in the land of the Linnorm Kings, you're friggin set. You have to take preserve organs first, but I don't think people should look down on a 25% chance to negate sneak attacks and critical hits. (which you can increase to 75% by taking the discovery 2 more times)
And finally, Immunity to cold actually makes the detonate spell useful.
1. Make alchemist.
2. Be totally awesome.
That's seriously all you need to know.
the great thing about the alchemist class is that its like a bard. you think to your self " who would play a bard" because on paper they dont really pop out at you. but once you play them, and youre making skill checks 90% of the time, buffing the group, still casting decent utility spells, thats when it hits you... bards are bad ass!!!
thats what alchemists are, utility experts, they can have a potion for every need, aoe damage on call which gets nasty after a few levels, and can still go kick someones teeth in while dual wielding great sword with the extra limbs feature they get.]
i mean look at it like this, you get the to strength of a barbarian, cast (almost) like a wizard, and ranged sneak attack of a rogue. they are pretty cool characters.
So I have a side stupid question on bombs so only one target takes the full damage and every one else takes splash or am I reading it wrong please help cause in an upcoming game we have an Alchemist
The target takes the full damage, and everyone else affected takes the splash damage. The target does not take the full damage + splash damage.
I wonder what builds you've come up with.
Here are a few general ideas
Beastmorph Vivisectionist, eternal improved invisibility potion (thank you summoners around the world) pounce and sneak attack. It's hard to combine it with sap master, but probably doablew with a few lvl of rogue archetypes.
Psychonaut Mindchemyst, if you ever reach 5th lvl spells pearls of power 5 for moment of prescience will be life savers and throwing 1 bomb per round is still nice as your int is insane the splash damage is worth it too.
Even the vanilla alchemist is nice as he can go into melee with the mutagens, control with smoke bombs or similar, and has amazing extracts that buff him. He's like a weak-ish fighter that once knocked out comes back with a complete set of different attacks. Hard to get down, and not boring at all.
Plus, the bomb are not only weak, but they are EXTREMELY limited in number. So when I see all these Rapid Shot or TWF templates throwing bombs everywhere... I'm like... well cool story, but after 2rounds you're out?
So I'm just here pondering: Did I miss something?
I even took the time to create a fully working Alchemist Character Sheet lvl1, 5 and 10... and still can't see in which case this toon would worth another character of this level. Even my bards are doing way better fighter / caster ... ???
I don´t know why none of the guides out there mentions the use of Splash Weapons. Alchemists add their intelligence modifier on all Splash Weapon Damage ,thats a pretty major ability, it means for low levels Acid Flasks and Alchemist´s Fire do just as much damage as Bombs,and they are super cheap too, 900 Acid Flasks cost only 3000 Gp if you craft them yourself(wich you totally should do).Thats much cheaper than buying a magic weapon ,you don´t even need one, DR is never a Problem,you can switch between two energy types (acid,fire),spellresistance does not apply ,and you always attack touch AC.Sounds pretty strong to me.With Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid shot and a high int modifier you can do really decent Damage with Acid Flasks alone,your Int modifier is really what makes it work. And if you need a little more Damage output or some Special Effects just throw in some bombs in there too nothing stoping you from using Acid Flasks and bombs in the same full attack action. That seems to be the best way to stretch out your bombs over the whole day and do some impressive Damage every round too ,while ignoring the most common defenses you´ll encounter in any game really(AC,SR,Saves),and it not only costs you next to nothing ,no you can craft it all yourself without even spending a feat. That´s a Deal :)
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I don´t know why none of the guides out there mentions the use of Splash Weapons. Alchemists add their intelligence modifier on all Splash Weapon Damage ,thats a pretty major ability, it means for low levels Acid Flasks and Alchemist´s Fire do just as much damage as Bombs,and they are super cheap too, 900 Acid Flasks cost only 3000 Gp if you craft them yourself](wich you totally should do).Thats much cheaper than buying a magic weapon ,you don´t even need one, DR is never a Problem,you can switch between two energy types (acid,fire),spellresistance does not apply ,and you always attack touch AC.Sounds pretty strong to me.With Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid shot and a high int modifier you can do really decent Damage with Acid Flasks alone,your Int modifier is really what makes it work. And if you need a little more Damage output or some Special Effects just throw in some bombs in there too nothing stopping you from using Acid Flasks and boms in the same full attack action. That seems to be the best way to stretch out your bombs over the whole day and do some impressive Damage every round too ,while ignoring the most common defenses you´ll encounter in any game really(AC,SR,Saves),and it not only costs you next to nothing ,no you can craft it all yourself without even...Plus, the bomb are not only weak, but they are EXTREMELY limited in number. So when I see all these Rapid Shot or TWF templates throwing bombs everywhere... I'm like... well cool story, but after 2rounds you're out?
So I'm just here pondering: Did I miss something?
I even took the time to create a fully working Alchemist Character Sheet lvl1, 5 and 10... and still can't see in which case this toon would worth another character of this level. Even my bards are doing way better fighter / caster ... ???
Or you can just use Stingchucks because they are FREE!
Yeah but Stingchucks are a little macabre:)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Alchemists adding their Int mod to damage with holy water and other splash weapons is pretty strong at low levels. At higher levels, just the fact that they can basically ignore both DR and SR lets them really put the hurt on otherwise "tough" creatures like golems. Also, many of the higher level creatures are big lumbering types with touch ACs which are basically inconsequential.
So I'm just here pondering: Did I miss something?
4 arms+ 1 tentacle = 6 attacks + 1 shield.
Cold immunity.
To correct my error:
4 extra arms + 1 tentacle + multieweapon fighting + improved two weapon fighting + greater two weapon fighting + permanent haste + tentacle = 5 attacks -2, 2 attacks + 1 tentacle -7, 2 attacks -12 = 10 attacks
=>
theoretically 100d6 dam from sneak attack in 1 round (although its 8 feats/discoveries spent)Cold immunity + sleep immunity + paralysis immunity+ immunity vs non-lethal damage (not that cool but only 2 feats and you cannot die from cold or normal hot weather, thirst, starvation, slow suffocation)
I thought the extra arm discoveries couldn't give you extra attacks and that multi-weapon fighting didn't apply to them?
Also, are you using Feral Mutagen here, or using a weapon in each hand for iterative attacks?
What doe AOE stand for? Granted, I'll allow two jokes before correct answer. Gather information:
Which is a better (AOE) damage dealer? Mind Chemist or Grenadier?
Just focusing on AOE? Probably the Mind Chemist; the added damage to your bombs from your mutagen wins out.
But I prefer the Grenadier, for the flexibility (combined with Strafe discovery) on how to use my bombs, to hit the most number of targets. Also, I happen to like being able to supplement my bombs with Alchemical Weapon. Particularly fun, when combined with Explosive Missile.
What doe AOE stand for? Granted, I'll allow two jokes before correct answer. Gather information: 1d20 + 0
Area of Effect.
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I wonder what builds you've come up with.
Here are a few general ideas
Beastmorph Vivisectionist, eternal improved invisibility potion (thank you summoners around the world) pounce and sneak attack. It's hard to combine it with sap master, but probably doablew with a few lvl of rogue archetypes.
You'd need a pretty lenient GM for that kind of potion cheese. :P
Psychonaut Mindchemyst[sic], if you ever reach 5th lvl spells pearls of power 5 for moment of prescience will be life savers and throwing 1 bomb per round is still nice as your int is insane the splash damage is worth it too.
An alchemist cannot use pearls of power, since they do not cast or prepare spells. A shame really, but since they are otherwise so versatile, it's not a huge loss.
For better or worse, let me add my 2 coppers to the thread:
I've played a couple of alchemists and so far the most sustainable and versatile way to play the class has been an exceptional everyman: I mean, a kind of factotum or a jack-of-all-trades(master of one, alchemy) fellow. While making a rogue 2.0, a complete combat monster or a mobile howitzer is very tempting, retaining most of the seemingly random and conflicting abilities makes for a, certainly a less singlemindedly powerful one but still great addition to any a party:
It's possible to have a character who, for instance, becomes a decent fighter with only two or three turns(which can be done far in advance thanks to 10 min/level buffs) of buffing, has a touch attack splash weapon with no danger of saves or SR, does not care about poisoning themself and needs only a moment to come up with just the right spells(provided a player has some foresight or experience with dungeoneering). It only takes one discovery to become a bomb platform of some worth, one discovery to become a lovable buffer and another one to transform into a virtual spontaneous caster.
Only real weakness of the class is the lack of proficiencies and the horrible will save which causes some undue MAD. A dip in a martial class or rogue can be pretty sweet, all thing considered.
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I wonder what builds you've come up with.
Here are a few general ideas
Beastmorph Vivisectionist, eternal improved invisibility potion (thank you summoners around the world) pounce and sneak attack. It's hard to combine it with sap master, but probably doablew with a few lvl of rogue archetypes.You'd need a pretty lenient GM for that kind of potion cheese. :P
An alchemist cannot use pearls of power, since they do not cast or prepare spells. A shame really, but since they are otherwise so versatile, it's not a huge loss.
Psychonaut Mindchemyst[sic], if you ever reach 5th lvl spells pearls of power 5 for moment of prescience will be life savers and throwing 1 bomb per round is still nice as your int is insane the splash damage is worth it too.
Eh if you read the Alchemist passage in the APG it does say he "prepares" spells...
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And if you read it again, you'll notice that an alchemist "does not actually cast spells" and has no caster level either(which makes feats like Arcane Strike unavailable to them).
After some forum rummaging I noticed that it's a pretty contested issue around these parts. Probably up to a gm, whether pearls of power for extracts is allowed
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And if you read it again, you'll notice that an alchemist "does not actually cast spells" and has no caster level either(which makes feats like Arcane Strike unavailable to them).
After some forum rummaging I noticed that it's a pretty contested issue around these parts. Probably up to a gm, whether pearls of power for extracts is allowed
In effect,
an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients
into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by
drinking the extract.
Thats the problem...while it clearly says "prepares" and "casts" in the class description of Extracts we all know its not quite the same...
Theres a fac/errata somwhere stating alch. cl is equal to his level. Which qualifies him for item creation feats and other cl req. feats...
Carn. Only the first attack in any round is considered for Sneak attack damage so I see a hole there...
LoL where did you get that idea? This must be a house rule your group has used for so long you took it as the rule. No.
You can sneak attack every attack you have as long as you meet the requirements for sneak attack (opponent flat footed or flanked by you).
And dont forget the Rage Chemist. One of the most flavorful prestige classes to date. All Dr. Jykle/ Mr. Hyde.
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You're thinking of the Master Chymist. You're probably better off forgetting the rage chemist.
You're thinking of the Master Chymist. You're probably better off forgetting the rage chemist.
O oops. Thats correct. Master Chymist. Thanks Cheapy. They are the ones that get the Split Personality right? Different alignments and all. If its the one Im thinking of the RP alone makes the class briliant.
Could someone please explain how alchemists can make a full attack with alchemy or bombs more than once every 3 or so rounds, for example with an alchemist 8 with twfing. In other words, how do you draw the flasks or bombs quick enough to get the full attack off?
Fast Bombs discovery.
Fast Bombs discovery.
That will indeed work for the bombs, but what about the alchemical attacks?