I've recently joined a Skull and Shackles game on these forums with this character. I had her concept pretty solid and managed to hammer down most of her sheet during selection. But only when the game started I got the time to really do my research and honestly I'm a bit lost. Never played a monk before and specially not this specific complicated archetype, would really like suggestions.
Before I proceed, what I'd like for her to do mechanically would be to dish out damage. I'd like her to kick ass in a straight-forward manner, with as little "mystical" abilities as possible. The DM has warned us that the campaign is hard and brutal, and I don't want to be a burden to the group. The problems I'm facing are the following:
1) Monk bonus feats suck. I really don't want to get into the grappling business, so I ended up getting Dodge (simply because there's not a better one). At level 2 I'll probably get the Deflect Arrows (also 'cause there's nothing useful). At 6? No idea.
2) BAB +0 on first level. This precludes me from taking two very important feats: Power Attack and Weapon Focus (to get Weapon Specialization afterwards). I end up having 2 feats at first level that I have no idea what to do with.
I'd like to get Weapon Focus + Specialization at around the level it's possible (4) but I'm struggling with it. I could take Dragon Style at 3 (where I would take Weapon focus) and Dragon Ferocity at 5, and the benefit would be similar (+2 to damage that could scale with buffs, items, etc.). Suggestions?
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Also I just noticed that even though I get the Abundant Step ability at level 12 I am unable to use it since it requires the expenditure of 2 ki points. Looked at the Qinggong Monk for an alternative and haven't found anything that's worth it (since almost all of them require ki points). Did I just understand this wrong (pretty possible since it's 3:30 AM here) or is it just a big mistake?
I believe it has been stated by JJ that a monk can use their Flurry of Blows BAB to qualify for Power Attack and other feats with +BAB prereqs. You would only be able to use it when FoB is being used at first level. Maybe someone else will be able to give a link if needed.
@Skylancer4: That would really make this build a lot more feasible, any idea where I can find that quote?
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Also I just noticed that even though I get the Abundant Step ability at level 12 I am unable to use it since it requires the expenditure of 2 ki points. Looked at the Qinggong Monk for an alternative and haven't found anything that's worth it (since almost all of them require ki points). Did I just understand this wrong (pretty possible since it's 3:30 AM here) or is it just a big mistake?
Well, I think it is a mistake, but not on your part. I think whoever was writing the Martial Artist archetype forgot that abundant step requires ki, since they switched out all the other monk abilities that use ki. Perhaps your GM will let you take another bonus feat in place of the useless-to-you abundant step ability?
It goes with the whole, as long as you can fulfill the requirements of the feat at some point you can take it. When flurrying a monk has a BAB equal to his/her class level. Same reasoning a barbarian or ranger (with appropriate rage power or archtype) can take weapon focus (claw). They may not have it available all the time, but they do have it.
I just remember someone on the boards bringing it up in another thread. My guess would be the *ask james...* thread, but honestly don't know.
if allowed, consider taking Skill Focus (Perception) and Eldritch Heritage (Draconic Bloodline)
that gives you a leveling dragon claw natural attack, not sure if it stacks with monk unarmed bonuses properly or just the better one is used, but it fits your dragon style idea (and your monk may have a true dragon ancestor) and if I remember correctly the claws will later also add extra elemental damage
hmm... I think you do actually get a damage dice increase due to the dragon claws at level 7 which stacks with the normal monk unarmed damage
I believe it has been stated by JJ that a monk can use their Flurry of Blows BAB to qualify for Power Attack and other feats with +BAB prereqs. You would only be able to use it when FoB is being used at first level. Maybe someone else will be able to give a link if needed.
Actually, that's not true. What was actually stated, is that when making a Flurry of Blows, a Monk may use their modified BAB for the purposes of feats that have effects dependent on BAB, such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise.
I second BBT's suggestion. Take a level of Unarmed Fighter, maybe 2 if you want the extra feat. You probably will.
Also, for your Monk levels I would go with Master of Many Styles and Martial Artist. This will give you something useful to use your bonus feats on at first level. Namely Style feats. With the direction it looks like your going with the Monk I would recommend the Crane line of feats and maybe the Tiger, Panther or Turtle. Personally, I would recommend Crane and Panther.
I thought about taking the first level as Unarmed Fighter. Rather not do it, but if I don't find a good use for those two feats I see no other way.
Sadly the Master of Many Styles also substitutes the monk's capstone ability and can't be used together with the Martial Artist archetype.
I'd go for dragon style as soon as possible, assuming you are going mainly for STR. Check how you GM feels about power attack (whether you get x3 or are you stuck with x2), I'm not sure how it should be by RAW.
well, however you decide, the benefit of Eldritch Heritage is that it is not class dependent, and considers your total character level, so even if you multiclass you get the benefits at the same level, and you can take the feat already at level 3.
If you are allowed alternate racial feats and are human, you should take the one that gives you Skill focus on 3 different levels if you plan to take Eld.Her. as it is a requirement anyway
@Ryu: Yeah, but it also requires a fairly high Charisma. In an already MAD class. Also doesn't fit the concept. It is a good feat though.
I believe it has been stated by JJ that a monk can use their Flurry of Blows BAB to qualify for Power Attack and other feats with +BAB prereqs. You would only be able to use it when FoB is being used at first level. Maybe someone else will be able to give a link if needed.Actually, that's not true. What was actually stated, is that when making a Flurry of Blows, a Monk may use their modified BAB for the purposes of feats that have effects dependent on BAB, such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise.
Meh, so close yet so far... I knew I read something close to it. Though it is odd that that it wouldn't work looking at it. And given that it would mean getting the feat at most 2 levels in advance I'd let a player do it. Hell a sorcerer gets the fly skill even if they never take the spell or a spell to change forms. Pretty sure the world won't collapse in on itself if the feat gets taken early ;)
@Kazaan: I'm fine with maneuvers, but Grappling in itself is too much convoluted rules-wise and I feel it's generally a dick move by either side (if you grapple the party's cleric he's gonna stare at the ceiling for the entire fight, and if you grapple the BBEG in the first round of combat, the DM will hate you for it). I'll probably get Improved Disarm or Trip with the level 6 bonus feat.
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@Kazaan: I'm fine with maneuvers, but Grappling in itself is too much convoluted rules-wise and I feel it's generally a dick move by either side (if you grapple the party's cleric he's gonna stare at the ceiling for the entire fight, and if you grapple the BBEG in the first round of combat, the DM will hate you for it). I'll probably get Improved Disarm or Trip with the level 6 bonus feat.
I have to disagree there.
If you're looking to dish out major damage, you're in the wrong class. The one spot where a MA Monk can outshine a fighter damage-wise is that it is POSSIBLY able to overcome DR earlier. This is great when you're fighting constructs early on.
You can pump up your unarmed damage by using Dragon Style, but for that to really be effective you'll be waiting until Level 5 for the prerequisites. (With STR 18 you'll get 1d8+6 on each unarmed strike. Not too shabby, but not anywhere near what a power attacking fighter could be reaching.)
Casters---particularly clerics---are the most powerful classes in the game as written. You have to use every tool at your disposal to take care of them. Whereas a fighter will usually be taken out before they can reach a caster due to their poor saves, your enhanced movement makes you the perfect candidate to get in there and level him to the ground before they completely wreck the battle. Trip, Grapple, etc etc isn't a dick move when your opponent can Summon/Alter terrain/dominate/hit you with double-digit-damage-dice/so on and so forth.
@Kazaan: I'm fine with maneuvers, but Grappling in itself is too much convoluted rules-wise and I feel it's generally a dick move by either side (if you grapple the party's cleric he's gonna stare at the ceiling for the entire fight, and if you grapple the BBEG in the first round of combat, the DM will hate you for it). I'll probably get Improved Disarm or Trip with the level 6 bonus feat.
I'm not seeing how grappling is too convoluted; Pathfinder massively simplified the rules for it compared to how it's handled in D&D.
While Grapple is the most complicated of the Maneuvers, it really isn't very hard to understand.
Round 1: You make a Grapple Check by rolling your CMB vs target's CMD, success means you Grapple the target. Both you, are the target, gain the grappled condition until you release the grapple, the target escapes, either dies, or one of you has been pinned/tied up.
The target may attempt to escape by rolling his CMB vs your CMD or an escape artist check opposed by your CMD. Success means you can break the grapple, or reverse it and become the grappler. Or the target may attack you with a light weapon.
Round 2: You make another grapple check (with a +5 bonus) to maintain the grapple. If you succeed, you may do something new with the grapple, such as Pin (and gaining the pinned condition which replaces the grappled condition), Inflict Damage, or Move the target. You can also attempt to tie the target up at a -10 penalty. If you fail, the grapple ends as you've lost your hold.
The target may again attempt to escape as before or attack you with a light weapon.
Round 3: You make another grapple check (with a +5 bonus) to maintain the grapple. If you chose not to pin the target on the previous round, the again may choose to do so, or Move, Inflict Damage, or Tie them up with a -10 penalty. If you did Pin the opponent, you may Tie them up without penalty, Move them, or Inflict Damage. If you fail to maintain the grapple, you lose hold and the grapple ends.
The target may again attempt to escape or attack you with a light weapon.
Round 4: See Round 3 and keep repeating until combat ends, you release the grapple, or either die/escape.
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Grappling is all about taking away the enemies actions and applying penalties to the enemy.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Grapple is a great condition to impose on an enemy. It prevents them from moving and applies a -2 penalty to their AC (including touch AC and their CMD, meaning it's easier to maintain the grapple), and a -2 penalty to attack rolls (-4 if they use Dexterity to calculate attack bonuses). It also hinders casters by forcing them to make concentrations checks to cast spells.
Pinned is an even better condition to inflict. The enemy is now outright denied Dexterity (meaning Rogues can sneak attack), it takes a -4 penalty to AC (this penalty applies to both normal and touch AC, and CMD meaning it's easier to maintain the grapple), it cannot move, and it can't cast a spell requiring somatic or material components.
The Pathfinder SRD (which is different from the Official Paizo sponsored PRD) has some great flow charts to help with Grapple. If you're confused about Grappling, print out those charts and use them at the table.
Grapple is one of the key maneuvers to a Monk tactic I refer to as Penalty Stacking. Warning! I have personally seen a GM pull hair out when a Monk uses Penalty Stacking to shut down the surprise monster he throws at the party.
I thought about taking the first level as Unarmed Fighter. Rather not do it, but if I don't find a good use for those two feats I see no other way.
Sadly the Master of Many Styles also substitutes the monk's capstone ability and can't be used together with the Martial Artist archetype.
No, it doesn't. Martial Artist replaces Empty Body at 19th and Master of Many Styles replaces perfect self at 20th. Neither of the two overlap.
No, it doesn't. Martial Artist replaces Empty Body at 19th and Master of Many Styles replaces perfect self at 20th. Neither of the two overlap.I thought about taking the first level as Unarmed Fighter. Rather not do it, but if I don't find a good use for those two feats I see no other way.
Sadly the Master of Many Styles also substitutes the monk's capstone ability and can't be used together with the Martial Artist archetype.
I have a similar character and the DM houseruled that Martial Artist and MoMS can be taken together. It's not as though many characters will ever actually hit 19 or 20. Nor is the combination OP. In game the character is all about unarmed fighting techniques and none of the "mystic monk" stuff.
No, it doesn't. Martial Artist replaces Empty Body at 19th and Master of Many Styles replaces perfect self at 20th. Neither of the two overlap.I thought about taking the first level as Unarmed Fighter. Rather not do it, but if I don't find a good use for those two feats I see no other way.
Sadly the Master of Many Styles also substitutes the monk's capstone ability and can't be used together with the Martial Artist archetype.
From Martial Artist:
Extreme Endurance (Ex)
At 5th level, a martial artist gains immunity to fatigue. At 10th level, he also gains immunity to exhaustion. At 15th level, he gains immunity to stunning. At 20th level, he gains immunity to death effects and energy drain.
This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, and perfect self.
Ok, somehow missed that. Wow.....That seems a bit much....Fairly certain any DM I play under would allow that combo also. And PFS should because they will never see those levels anyway.