...good advice for Frightened....
Good tips on the Frightened condition, thanks.
It's also very applicable because I know my DM likes to turn the tables on stuff like that and I could easily see him having them run back with reinforcements, etc.So yeah, as I said before I never planned on using Frightened all the time. Once in a while, sure, if I think it'll be wise tactically.
Otherwise I'll stick with stacking Shaken and Sickened. :)
As for intimidating multiple times.... that's where Enforcer really comes in handy. All you have to do is make the minimum check to succeed at Intimidate and they are shaken for a number of rounds equal to how much damage you inflict. That will easily be 10+ rounds... more than long enough to last the entire combat.
Even if I'm using Dazzling Display to AOE Intimidate, the Thug archetype will add +1 round to that.... so I shouldn't have to keep re-applying it.
The only exception will be if I choose to frighten someone, but that shouldn't be too often (for the reasons I already stated).
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ive actually played this rogue build to 3rd level, when it became incredibly boring. i went half-orc thug/scout. took enforcer at level one, weapon focus at 2, dazzling display at 3. maxed cha, with a trait bonus to intimidate and a mw tool so i had an effective +16 to intimidate checks which meant i could almost always meet the requirement to make foes frightened for a round. so with dazzling display i would talk about my awesome orc bite attack and everyone would run away ending combats by myself. or, they would be immune to fear and i would diddle around.
if you wanna stick with this build, be a half-orc get toothy and buy an amulet of mighty fists for merciful. so your bite attack is nonlethal which qualifies for your sap master nonsense, and you can apply sneak attack damage as normal.
imo the build sucks to play, as combat is just up to whether the enemy is immune to fear or not.
Few things about this...
First, you played it up to 3? You know you don't get the Scout charge ability until lvl 4 right?
Also, why would you max charisma? If this is the build you are going for, Charisma is otherwise useless. I'm still putting ranks into bluff and diplomacy just because I want to also be the back-up face of the group, but putting 18 in charisma is just excessive... especially when I can be putting those points into STR, DEX, and CON.
The Orc bite attack... even if you get an amulet of mighty fists with merciful it doesn't suddenly turn the piercing damage of the half-orc bite into bludgeoning.... which you need for the "sap master nonsense".
Also, how do you even AFFORD an Amulet of Mighty Fists at level 3?? They cost 5000 gold for even a +1 version, and the WBL for level 3 is 3000... not to mention my DM hates the whole 'magic-mart' idea, and so basing my character builds around any kind of specific gear is usually doomed to failure.BTW, frightened is not the go-to tactic for my character. I would use it sparingly and strategically, and it also...
sorry i know i was saying toothy, i mean the tusked racial trait from orcs of golarian. the bite attack it gives does not say its just piercing, so it acts as a normal bite which is P/B/S.
i didnt have the merciful amulet yet, i was just suggesting it is possible. i did have a high strength, i consider dex and wis to be dump stats on rogues especially for this kind of build so i still had a decent strength. so with enforcer and bite doing nonlethal i could still frighten even w/o doing the sneak attack damage.
i think the build does merit maxing cha, so you can also be the face as needed.
as for human vs half-orc, you are using your extra feat to make it so you can punch dudes, when you can get that on half-orc with the bite attack. so the extra feat is a non-issue. if yer dm hates half-orcs, buy a hat of disguise. as the face its actually a pretty good item. if your dm wont let you buy a hat of disguise in waterdeep i dunno what to say.
Yeah, no thanks Hangman.
I still don't think it's advantageous to be a half-orc, and besides, I don't want to play one.
I'm not using that bonus feat to get Improved Unarmed Strike.... I have a 1 lvl dip in Monk which I've decided will benefit me much more. Instead, that bonus feat will give me Skill Focus (Intimidate), as well as another Skill Focus feat at levels 8 and 16 thanks to the ARG.
I still don't get the logic of using this Bite attack as your main offensive ability. You can't TWF with it, and you'll still have to take either Bludgeoner or Improved Unarmed Strike eventually anyway, if you want to take advantage of the Sap line.
Also, your interpretation of that orc trait doesn't hold with me, and I KNOW it wouldn't with this DM.
Either way, I think I'm good.
I've decided to take a 1 level dip in Monk (Martial Artist, MoMS) to help with my Unarmed damage. I lag behind in BAB a tad, but gain a LOT by dipping a level or 2 in Monk.
FREE Improved Unarmed Strike feat plus the following goodies
1d6 unarmed damage instead of 1d3
All unarmed strikes add full STR mod to damage (essentially FREE Double Slice feat)
Unarmed counted as both manufactured and natural weapons for enhancement and effect purposes
FREE Dragon Style (ignore difficult terrain and allies when charging)
FREE Stunning Fist
+2 to all saves
Not a bad deal at all.
Also, as a Rogue that will be spending a majority of his career on the frontlines in melee.... dumping Dex and Con is a BAD BAD idea. I'm surprised your Half-orc isn't dead yet.
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Yeah, no thanks Hangman.
I still don't think it's advantageous to be a half-orc, and besides, I don't want to play one.I'm not using that bonus feat to get Improved Unarmed Strike.... I have a 1 lvl dip in Monk which I've decided will benefit me much more. Instead, that bonus feat will give me Skill Focus (Intimidate), as well as another Skill Focus feat at levels 8 and 16 thanks to the ARG.
I still don't get the logic of using this Bite attack as your main offensive ability. You can't TWF with it, and you'll still have to take either Bludgeoner or Improved Unarmed Strike eventually anyway, if you want to take advantage of the Sap line.
Also, your interpretation of that orc trait doesn't hold with me, and I KNOW it wouldn't with this DM.Either way, I think I'm good.
I've decided to take a 1 level dip in Monk (Martial Artist, MoMS) to help with my Unarmed damage. I lag behind in BAB a tad, but gain a LOT by dipping a level or 2 in Monk.FREE Improved Unarmed Strike feat plus the following goodies
1d6 unarmed damage instead of 1d3
All unarmed strikes add full STR mod to damage (essentially FREE Double Slice feat)
Unarmed counted as both manufactured and natural weapons for enhancement and effect purposes
FREE Dragon Style (ignore difficult terrain and allies when charging)
FREE Stunning Fist
+2 to all savesNot a bad deal at all.
Also, as a Rogue that will be spending a majority of his career on the frontlines in melee.... dumping Dex and Con is a BAD BAD idea. I'm surprised your Half-orc isn't dead yet.
i am not sure what you mean by "your interpretation of that orc trait doesn't hold with me", the bite is all three types as according to universal monster rules
you can also take the trait that lets you attack with slashing without the -4 penalty and gives you +1 damage on nonlethal attacks.and since the bite is your only natural attack, whenever you attack with just it you get str +1/2 on damage rolls as according to:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
i took another look at the guy, and you were right, i didnt have cha that high. here is how i built him (and had him planned out):
str:20
dex:14
con:11
int: 7
wis: 7
cha:14
rogue 1: feat-enforcer
rogue 2: talent-weapon training (bite)
rogue 3: feat- dazzling display
rogue 4: talent - combat trick-sap adept
rogue 5: feat - sap master
rogue 6: talent- intimidating prowess
i was using a falchion at low levels since orcs get proficiency for free. so a two handed weapon for primary and a secondary natural attack, which is essentially they same as twf but without the feat tax.
dipping into monk makes you get your sap master later, and that really is the bread and butter of this build.
as a rogue i prefer to make the enemy unable to act at all instead of just doing damage. the shaken build is a debuff build, debuffers dont necessarily need to stand next to the monsters to be useful.
No clue how that happened lol, somehow got that in the wrong room. :(
Now I look like a lunatic. Thanks again, FenrisAir!
Sorry, was away at camp for a few days.... aaaah, I love summer.
Anywho! Hangman... first, I want to say thank you for expressing interest in my thread. Also, thank you for trying to give me advice and for relating your experience playing a somewhat similar build.
I apologize if I have seemed a bit touchy with you, and I appreciate that you haven't been snarky back at me.
That said, the build you just showed me doesn't even work.
In particular, the Sap feats are completely useless and don't offer anything whatsoever to the method of fighting you described.
First, without the feat Bludgeoner (which allows you do to non-lethal damage at no penalty with bludgeoning weapons) your bite still counts as lethal and so doesn't work with Sap Adept or Sap Master.
Sap Adept and Sap Master require you to do both bludgeoning AND non-lethal damage.
This is also why your attacks with the Falchion do NOT benefit from it. Even if you take that trait which turns the slashing damage into non-lethal slashing damage.... it's still doing slashing damage, and not bludgeoning. Hence sap adept and sap master do not apply.
Also, you need to read further into the natural attack rules. Yes, if a creature only has ONE natural attack.... and it's their ONLY attack, they count it as primary and do x1.5 STR damage with it. But if you read the rules further... it goes on to explain that if you are combining natural attacks with weapon attacks (your Falchion), then the natural attacks automatically become SECONDARY attacks. This means they are now -5 to hit and only get 1/2 STR damage added.
So in essence... you get Sap Master one level before me... but you can't even use it. Technically you COULD try to do non-lethal bludgeoning damage with your bite, but you would take a -4 penalty from that and another -5 for it being a Secondary attack. Not good odds.