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I think it would be real easy to solve any faction mission by just going and hiring an NPC of the required level.
How is a GM to determine what said NPC had in ranks for a skill?
How is a GM to determine what said NPC's level actually is?
How is a GM to determine what said NPC's skill bonus is?
Does the NPC have Skill Focus?
Does the NPC have feats like Athletics or Cosmopolitan?
Is the NPC a Gnome or Half Elf?
These NPCs are not statted, so it is completely out of the realms of the scenario for a GM to make up some stats on the fly so that the player might have a chance to complete their faction mission.
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Ah, you might have a point there. Though if Amenophus says "bring me the urn", and it breaks, and a party member can repair it (or you purchase spellcasting services per normal guidelines for such service), I see no reason to call that a failure, especially not on grounds of "he wants you to do it yourself".
Like I said, I think that particular one of your rules should be replaced by case-by-case assessment. Your others seem a bit more reliable.
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I agree, that spellcasting services, which has rules to them, are probably going to be ok.
However, lets take for example:
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I agree, that spellcasting services, which has rules to them, are probably going to be ok.
However, lets take for example:
** spoiler omitted **
No, you've sidestep the difficulty of the dice rolls, not the difficulty of the task you were given, which is considerably easier in a world and a society with ready access to magic.
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No, you've sidestep the difficulty of the dice rolls, not the difficulty of the task you were given, which is considerably easier in a world and a society with ready access to magic.I agree, that spellcasting services, which has rules to them, are probably going to be ok.
However, lets take for example:
** spoiler omitted **
There is no challenge to the task if you let them just break it and go get it mended though. No challenge at all.
As for verisimilitude, it stands to reason that your faction would know that you went and bought spell casting services to fix his item. As such, he could easily say, "You didn't complete this task on your own, so while I appreciate the macguffin, your reputation won't really benefit from it."
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There is no challenge to the task if you let them just break it and go get it mended though. No challenge at all.
That's a problem with a lot of the tasks: they're pretty easy to get around with magic. Requiring that you do it yourself just tells people to avoid strait martials and get yourself a spellcaster (or at least some UMD)
The challenge is to remember/know that there's a spell that does that (and that most spell-casters have access to it)
The Party Chelaxian can cast mending for you, and that would work, but not a random spellcaster? Or at the very least you CAN do it yourself.
You're also looking at 5 gp a pop to have a level 1 cast on each individual set. 100? gp isn't a bad penalty to pay for failing a roll.
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I agree, that spellcasting services, which has rules to them, are probably going to be ok.
However, lets take for example:
** spoiler omitted **
• If the concern is sidestepping challenge, then how do you feel about good tactics in combat or having the small library of situational scrolls that every veteran player advises carrying? Don't confuse "overcoming" with "sidestepping".
• If the concern is that your faction head wants to see what you're capable of without outside help, keep in mind that you created that rationale yourself to help your own sense of verisimilitude. It's not part of the campaign rules, the Core rules, the setting, or anything else. It's an after-the-fact invention to help your sense of verisimilitude, not an existing premise upon which you can (or did) base your current stance on faction missions.
• If the concern is verisimilitude (i.e., the faction head won't be happy that it broke, even though it's been repaired), then remember that we're playing in a setting where low-level magic is a mundane, everyday occurrence. One faction head tests new Pathfinders with magic puzzles, another offers a silver dagger and tosses them into a bedroom with an imp, and so forth. In some fictional universes, the use of magic to accomplish something is "cheating" in a way, using a shortcut to avoid doing something right. Golarion is not such a setting.
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I think the part that is missing is the concept that Fame/Prestige is not a tangible currency. By completing faction missions for your leader, the rest of the faction membership, who may have tried and failed, recognize your actions and you build a reputation as the star quarterback. That equates to increased access to private parties and restricted areas, as well as the ability to call in favors from those who would theoretically want favors in return, or just be associated with you.
IMO, if you have someone else solve the part of the mission that is the very reason it has not already been completed prior to your attempts, then that person, not you, is the one gaining the notoriety. If the mission just says recover the mcguffin, no big deal, but if it asks you to use *your* skills, problem solving, etc. to complete it, *you* really need to be the one to complete it to gain the fame.
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IMO, if you have someone else solve the part of the mission that is the very reason it has not already been completed prior to your attempts, then that person, not you, is the one gaining the notoriety. If the mission just says recover the mcguffin, no big deal, but if it asks you to use *your* skills, problem solving, etc. to complete it, *you* really need to be the one to complete it to gain the fame.
If that's the case, have the Osirion faction send wands of cure light wounds to Doyle Taghuer: Druid of the silver crusade, Evergreen park third silver maple on the left of the lake, fourth branch up....:)
Pathfinder agents, no matter which of the 10 factions they belong to, are expected to respect one another’s claims and stay out of each other’s affairs unless offering a helping hand.
So yes, you can help.
Well this is germaine: Guide to Pathfinder Society
Organized Play page 9
While players are encouraged to use creativity to successfully complete
faction missions,(woot) open hostility against characters of
other factions is absolutely forbidden, and most loyal
faction members keep their alliances to themselves,
sharing faction-related missions and information only
with other members of their faction.
So SOP is to tell no one, but its not a requirement. It probably depends a lot by faction. Silver Crusaders seem to walk around with banners.
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Is it plagiarism if I copy-paste myself?
(From another post with similar themes.)
Some of my thoughts:
1. Bluffing your faction leader should not have been a faction mission.
It sets a bad precedent, and is awkward given these are professionals in espionage and diplomacy.
If someone did lie to their faction leader, I'd mark it on their player sheet, maybe as a condition gained. "Disliked by Grandmaster Torch for lying."
(Of course, some factions might appreciate a good lie.)
2. Mending should not be (but definitely can be) a solution to several faction missions. (I'm looking at you "Sleight of Hand".)
(And Mage Hand can too, for that matter.)
3. Once in the field, the PC learns of the situation and usually discerns the most obvious skill set needed for his faction mission. Those of you arguing the PC must use that skill set are stepping away from verisimilitude. You're James Bond or Indiana Jones, and often you have to improvise. As long as it gets done, and fleshes out the story rather than circumvents the story.
Faction missions are not "Do X using skill Y", at least none I've ever seen. It's "Do X" or "Do X1 & X2" or "Do X in this manner."
You get done what the faction leader asks you to get done, in the manner (if any) they (not the GM's notes) want it done, you're good.
Let's use the ogre example above (improvising the faction statement as I don't know the details.)
"Kill Karg the Ogre, letting him feel the fear of Taldor's wrath before he dies."
Implied: Intimidate, then strike death blow.
Acceptable (IMO): Shout "Taldor has NOT forgotten!" Cast "Fear", letting AoO's from your allies kill Karg.
Did Karg feel fear and link it to Taldor's wrath? Yes.
Did you kill Karg? Yes, with your thug buddies.
Note: If it explicitly said deal killing blow, then "no, mission failed". If the note explicitly said "Intimidate" then still "Yes, mission accomplished" because PCs don't know about skill points and DCs. Intimidating through magic is just as valid, 'in character'.
If the GM's material under the Karg encounter mentions how the PC "has to" do the mission, it's trumped by what the faction leader said IMO.
4. All arguments using mechanical & metagame reasoning ring hollow compared to advancing my faction's agenda.
(Another knock against lying to your faction leader.)
Coordinators and designers have to factor those in when designing the modules, but GMs and players shouldn't have to guess those intentions.
5. That said, I hope that the coordinators do look at the faction missions side-by-side over time to balance the difficulty between them.
(I've been lucky so far, as all the impossible missions I've seen have fallen upon other players.)
Two cents over...
JMK
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If the mission just says recover the mcguffin, no big deal, but if it asks you to use *your* skills, problem solving, etc. to complete it, *you* really need to be the one to complete it to gain the fame.
Just as long as you remember that a skill check listed in the scenario is not the same as the in-game faction leader asking you to use that skill. In fact, I am not aware of a faction leader EVER asking a PC to use a specific skill, just to get a certain job done.
I think some people in this thread (not necessarily you, Bob) have a tendency to mix up in-character requests with out-of-character mechanics. Remember that if the player handout doesn't mention Skill X, then the faction leader didn't ask for Skill X to be used, no matter what check might be mentioned in the scenario.
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If the mission just says recover the mcguffin, no big deal, but if it asks you to use *your* skills, problem solving, etc. to complete it, *you* really need to be the one to complete it to gain the fame.Just as long as you remember that a skill check listed in the scenario is not the same as the in-game faction leader asking you to use that skill. In fact, I am not aware of a faction leader EVER asking a PC to use a specific skill, just to get a certain job done.
I think some people in this thread (not necessarily you, Bob) have a tendency to mix up in-character requests with out-of-character mechanics. Remember that if the player handout doesn't mention Skill X, then the faction leader didn't ask for Skill X to be used, no matter what check might be mentioned in the scenario.
Perhaps not, but its more than implied that if the factions are supposed to be secret and technically you aren't supposed to be bragging about which faction you belong to (In-Character), that finding an NPC or NPC Spellcaster to do your work for you is verboten.
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Perhaps not, but its more than implied that if the factions are supposed to be secret and technically you aren't supposed to be bragging about which faction you belong to (In-Character), that finding an NPC or NPC Spellcaster to do your work for you is verboten.
So the guy whose Andoran PC struts about proudly in full Eagle Knight regalia is now basing arguments on the premise of in-character faction secrecy? Bbauzh will be devastated. ;)
If a given PC's allegiance is secret, and if NPC spellcasting services would blow their cover, then yeah, it becomes a non-option. But I imagine that in practice, that situation would be the exception rather than the rule.
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If the mission just says recover the mcguffin, no big deal, but if it asks you to use *your* skills, problem solving, etc. to complete it, *you* really need to be the one to complete it to gain the fame.Just as long as you remember that a skill check listed in the scenario is not the same as the in-game faction leader asking you to use that skill. In fact, I am not aware of a faction leader EVER asking a PC to use a specific skill, just to get a certain job done.
The Cheliax mission in Goblinblood Dead pretty much does this.
I was worried about making my intimidate check and asked around the table if we had a rogue of sorts, knowing I might be able to "convince" this player to help me. Turns out I didn't need to worry.
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** spoiler omitted **
RE: Goblinblood Dead Cheliax faction mission
If I wanted to, yes, I could have hired thugs to steal it for me but then Andy would need to watch me make 20 rolls to fish-hook the maguffin, thereby slowing the game down. Would you allow me to do that? At the beginning of the scenario? I wouldn't allow me to do that.
Edited for specific scenario spoilerage.
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Perhaps not, but its more than implied that if the factions are supposed to be secret and technically you aren't supposed to be bragging about which faction you belong to (In-Character), that finding an NPC or NPC Spellcaster to do your work for you is verboten.So the guy whose Andoran PC struts about proudly in full Eagle Knight regalia is now basing arguments on the premise of in-character faction secrecy? Bbauzh will be devastated. ;)
If a given PC's allegiance is secret, and if NPC spellcasting services would blow their cover, then yeah, it becomes a non-option. But I imagine that in practice, that situation would be the exception rather than the rule.
That’s a spurious comment Jiggy. You are trying to twist my words around.
Bbauzh would never consider going to an NPC to get something done.
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Spoiler:Right, because pickpocketing is the only avenue of theft. People don't get mugged in dark alleys, homes don't need defenses against robbery, and you needn't worry about leaving something lying around unattended because no one will ever swipe it while you're not looking. Nope, stealing definitely demands the use of Sleight of Hand. And it would of course be absolutely forbidden to employ the combat maneuver that's actually called "steal".
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This question comes from a scenario I am running that has a task in it that requires a DC 30 Escape Artist check.
Just got pointed towards this thread. I'd been avoiding it based on the thread title alone. >:] And lo and behold the initial post was about one my PCs!
In case all you guys were worried, I eventually thought of a way to get the brass scales out of the crevice. All it took was a call to Lance Corporal Nightcrawler of the Andoran Eagle Knights. He popped right over and retrieved it for me.
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Re Leg O lambs mission
-Sleight of hand
-Diplomacy
-Intimidate
-Disguise yourself and knock them out with a sap
-Drug them and take it
-Charm person
-dominate person
Anything that involved an attack roll, or opposed roll of any kind would not be appropriate for that faction mission, as the NPC in question did not have stats. This includes spells that would require the NPC to make a saving throw. Additionally, being that the V-C is present in the room while this discussion is taking place, casting spells toward the person is also a bad, bad idea.
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Perhaps not, but its more than implied that if the factions are supposed to be secret and technically you aren't supposed to be bragging about which faction you belong to (In-Character), that finding an NPC or NPC Spellcaster to do your work for you is verboten.If the mission just says recover the mcguffin, no big deal, but if it asks you to use *your* skills, problem solving, etc. to complete it, *you* really need to be the one to complete it to gain the fame.Just as long as you remember that a skill check listed in the scenario is not the same as the in-game faction leader asking you to use that skill. In fact, I am not aware of a faction leader EVER asking a PC to use a specific skill, just to get a certain job done.
I think some people in this thread (not necessarily you, Bob) have a tendency to mix up in-character requests with out-of-character mechanics. Remember that if the player handout doesn't mention Skill X, then the faction leader didn't ask for Skill X to be used, no matter what check might be mentioned in the scenario.
I try to make it non-obvious that it's faction-related unless I'm like Silver Crusade, which openly detests the secrecy of the Faction Wars and just wants to do as much good as possibly.
As an example:
Later, in part 2, the same Cheliax PC was pursuing her mission of delivering the letter to the bureaucrat, but everyone in the group actually thought I was just bribing her to go away and not check for the braid, so a bunch of them aided another on the check by adding various additions to my diplomacy check and generally backing me up. I'm not sure if I would have made the check without their help (the GM kept a poker face until people were done deciding if they were aiding and I don't own the scenario), but I like to think that it was the last PC to aid, the Andoran faction alchemist, who pushed me over the edge to success, since that's a funnier story.
The upshot is--no one ever figured out in character that they had been accomplices to a Cheliax mission. Doing it this way would qualify as being subtle enough to avoid being a problem, right?
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Anything that involved an attack roll, or opposed roll of any kind would not be appropriate for that faction mission, as the NPC in question did not have stats. This includes spells that would require the NPC to make a saving throw.
Slight derail: is it actually a rule that unstatted NPCs are immune to effects that involve their non-existent stats (such as combat maneuvers, spells with saves, attack rolls, etc)? For example, the surviving Pathfinder in
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Additionally, being that the V-C is present in the room while this discussion is taking place, casting spells toward the person is also a bad, bad idea.
Or a FANTASTIC idea, depending on how sadistic of a GM you are. >:D
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Rogue Eidolon, love stories like that.
I'm glad, and I figured you would. From your posts in other threads, you seem to have a style of being strict, but fair. While my style is a bit looser in general, I certainly respect that. I sort of posted those stories because I hoped both sides would agree that those were OK--I think it shows (in the way Jiggy was trying to show by stating the middle ground) that you're in general OK with players getting other characters to help solve their missions as long as they do so cleverly and subtly, rather than being like "Hey Eagle Knight Captain Bob. I, Hellknight Signifier Joe, need your help with my Cheliax mission of taking apart this magical puzzle box so I can figure out how to use it to secretly enslave the populace of this area. I don't have disable device, but I remember from all the times you've kept unlocking the chains of slaves that you're pretty good at that. Can you you take it apart and then write down how it works so I can send it to Zarta Dralneen? Thanks."
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Rogue Eidolon, love stories like that.I'm glad, and I figured you would. From your posts in other threads, you seem to have a style of being strict, but fair. While my style is a bit looser in general, I certainly respect that. I sort of posted those stories because I hoped both sides would agree that those were OK--I think it shows (in the way Jiggy was trying to show by stating the middle ground) that you're in general OK with players getting other characters to help solve their missions as long as they do so cleverly and subtly, rather than being like "Hey Eagle Knight Captain Bob. I, Hellknight Signifier Joe, need your help with my Cheliax mission of taking apart this magical puzzle box so I can figure out how to use it to secretly enslave the populace of this area. I don't have disable device, but I remember from all the times you've kept unlocking the chains of slaves that you're pretty good at that. Can you you take it apart and then write down how it works so I can send it to Zarta Dralneen? Thanks."
Yup. Exactly. I actually really enjoy players coming up with unique ideas and roleplaying them out. Leg O' Lamb's roleplay with Gaspar Desime was superb, so much so, that he actually roleplayed himself out of potentially the easy option (assuming he had slight of hand at all).
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Is he immune?She.
She's kept on the edge of death. If anything blows up.. she dies. Not real hard to adjudicate. She's a plot device, nothing more.
Yup, as are almost all NPC's that are not given a stat block. Plot devices can usually only be interacted with in the way that the scenario indicates. Sure, players will always come up with unique ideas, and those ideas need to be weighed against the circumstances and the intent of the plot device.
But if there aren't any stats, you'd be better off banging your head against a brick wall than try to charm it.
Especially if the NPC is a well known name. If Gaspar Desime doesn't have any stats in the scenario, and I'm a GM who doesn't own any other materials that may or may not have his stat block in them (as they aren't part of the core assumption) then as a GM I don't have a right to arbitrarily assign stats to him just so a PC can try a "creative" way around his faction mission.
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Yup. Exactly. I actually really enjoy players coming up with unique ideas and roleplaying them out. Leg O' Lamb's roleplay with Gaspar Desime was superb, so much so, that he actually roleplayed himself out of potentially the easy option (assuming he had slight of hand at all).Rogue Eidolon, love stories like that.I'm glad, and I figured you would. From your posts in other threads, you seem to have a style of being strict, but fair. While my style is a bit looser in general, I certainly respect that. I sort of posted those stories because I hoped both sides would agree that those were OK--I think it shows (in the way Jiggy was trying to show by stating the middle ground) that you're in general OK with players getting other characters to help solve their missions as long as they do so cleverly and subtly, rather than being like "Hey Eagle Knight Captain Bob. I, Hellknight Signifier Joe, need your help with my Cheliax mission of taking apart this magical puzzle box so I can figure out how to use it to secretly enslave the populace of this area. I don't have disable device, but I remember from all the times you've kept unlocking the chains of slaves that you're pretty good at that. Can you you take it apart and then write down how it works so I can send it to Zarta Dralneen? Thanks."
Sleight of Hand? In full plate? *Commence giggling* Yeah, sleight of hand! HA!
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Anything that involved an attack roll, or opposed roll of any kind would not be appropriate for that faction mission, as the NPC in question did not have stats. This includes spells that would require the NPC to make a saving throw.
Unless you can quote some rule somewhere stating this very clearly I totally and completely reject this argument.
1) This completely breaks versimilitude. Suddenly, some characters are totally immune to some things?
2) How the heck is the player supposed to know who has stats and who doesn't? Sometimes NPCs have stats in case violence breaks out, sometimes they don't.
3) Sleight of Hand (to use your example) is ACTUALLY an opposed roll. So clearly you CAN make rolls against statless opponents.
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Anything that involved an attack roll, or opposed roll of any kind would not be appropriate for that faction mission, as the NPC in question did not have stats. This includes spells that would require the NPC to make a saving throw.
Unless you can quote some rule somewhere stating this very clearly I totally and completely reject this argument.
1) This completely breaks versimilitude. Suddenly, some characters are totally immune to some things?
Let's say that Gaspar happened to be in another scenario, and let's say that his class and levels are printed in that scenario. How is someone running this mod without reading the other one going to know what his stats are?
And as for 3), he took 10. That's why there's a DC.
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Anything that involved an attack roll, or opposed roll of any kind would not be appropriate for that faction mission, as the NPC in question did not have stats. This includes spells that would require the NPC to make a saving throw.
Unless you can quote some rule somewhere stating this very clearly I totally and completely reject this argument.
1) This completely breaks versimilitude. Suddenly, some characters are totally immune to some things?
2) How the heck is the player supposed to know who has stats and who doesn't? Sometimes NPCs have stats in case violence breaks out, sometimes they don't.
3) Sleight of Hand (to use your example) is ACTUALLY an opposed roll. So clearly you CAN make rolls against statless opponents.
Ok then, you tell me what a GM is to do if someone wants to tackle Gaspar Desime (The Isger hero of the Goblinblood wars) in a dark alley, when the scenario doesn’t have stats for him?
What level is he? Remember this is a tier 1-5 scenario, and he’s a war hero, so I’m imagining he’s probably in the 7-9 range somewhere.
What are is saves?
What feats does he have?
What skill ranks?
What are his ability scores?
What items does he carry?
Am I supposed to come up with a level 7 to 9 Fighter off the cuff because some players want to ensure 1PP?
I don’t think so.
Even though I’m completely capable of doing it, I wouldn’t.
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Anything that involved an attack roll, or opposed roll of any kind would not be appropriate for that faction mission, as the NPC in question did not have stats. This includes spells that would require the NPC to make a saving throw.
Unless you can quote some rule somewhere stating this very clearly I totally and completely reject this argument.
1) This completely breaks versimilitude. Suddenly, some characters are totally immune to some things?
Let's say that Gaspar happened to be in another scenario, and let's say that his class and levels are printed in that scenario. How is someone running this mod without reading the other one going to know what his stats are?
And as for 3), he took 10. That's why there's a DC.
The scenario gives DCs for Intimidate or Diplomacy and Sleight of Hand.
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The scenario gives DCs for Intimidate or Diplomacy and Sleight of Hand.
Well, yeah. That's the in-game reason for why there's a DC for Sleight of Hand instead of an opposed roll. Intimidate and Diplomacy usually have DCs.
(In case I'm misunderstanding your post and you were replying to the top half, that was the reason why you don't want to make up stats for a NPC. What is some other scenario proves you wrong?)
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Is he immune?She.
She's kept on the edge of death. If anything blows up.. she dies. Not real hard to adjudicate. She's a plot device, nothing more.
Yup, as are almost all NPC's that are not given a stat block. Plot devices can usually only be interacted with in the way that the scenario indicates. Sure, players will always come up with unique ideas, and those ideas need to be weighed against the circumstances and the intent of the plot device.
But if there aren't any stats, you'd be better off banging your head against a brick wall than try to charm it.
Especially if the NPC is a well known name. If Gaspar Desime doesn't have any stats in the scenario, and I'm a GM who doesn't own any other materials that may or may not have his stat block in them (as they aren't part of the core assumption) then as a GM I don't have a right to arbitrarily assign stats to him just so a PC can try a "creative" way around his faction mission.
I like the idea that people without stats cannot die. That would mean I was immortal.
But seriously, versimilitude i.e. that fact that if we are (other than magic) simulating a world that works the same way our world does. If I jump out my fourth story window I will probably die. If you stab someone with a sword, even if they don't have a stat block, they die or at negitive hit points. It's called handwaving.
The only difference between reality and the PFS universe is that in one universe you can walk down street in a major city, start fights and kill people, and not be arrested.