Does a Monk / Druid lose the ability to kung-fu fight while wildshaped?

[pres man]

I've got a related question, just to make sure I am understanding the PF rules.

If my druid/monk shifts into a dire bear. I can make a full attack, not a flurry though, and use the natural attacks (including grab ability) as secondary attacks after my unarmed strikes.

So assuming I have a BA of +7/+2 I could go (ignoring all the rest of the penalties and bonuses for the moment):
+7/+2 unarmed strikes and 2 claws +2 and bite +2

[Bardic Dave]

Yeah, I'm 99% sure that JJ is of that opinion that RAW allows it to work, which is good enough to convince me of the validity of this build. He doesn't seem pleased about it though!

In my game, I wouldn't let it fly though, purely for flavour reasons. I'm not a fan of crazy twinked out concepts ala 3.5 whose only purpose is to maximize the number of dice rolled per turn, and it's not because such builds are "overpowered". A kung-fu allosaur just seems lame to me. And no, I don't hate monks. I actually love monks. They're are one of my favourite classes and I wish the devs would fix them. But a kung-fu allosaur doesn't sit well with me, It's just too ridiculous.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Druid 10 / Monk 10 having 12d8 base damage = 54 damage on average, before strength and so forth.

Minimally optimized Fighter 20 w/ a great sword, power attack, gloves of dueling, and potion of enlarge person, among other things.

3d6 base damage = 10.5 avg
+6 damage from weapon training
+4 damage from greater weapon specialization
+18 damage from power attack

...I'm already at 38.5, and I haven't even looked into str bonus to damage, which...since fighter is getting 1.5x and the monk/druid is not...will likely close the gap more. Both having +5 enhancements makes the difference the same, but the % greater in favor of the druid/monk smaller still. And...dude, amulet of mighty fists is PRICY...

For what it's worth, the fighter also has double the crit range (he definitely got keen or improved crit; I'll assume the druid/monk got it on his unarmed, even though it's a pretty cruddy deal to do so for 19-20) and auto-confirms his crits.

That's seriously not even trying very hard. Versus the druid/monk, who has been optimized at every turn. Ho hum.

("But, SotS, the druid/monk can take PA, too!" you cry! Yeah... except he needs to not have it just to come even remotely close to the fighter's to hit number...this isn't fantasyland, you don't get to just assume you hit no matter how badly you tank your attack modifier. And he's only getting +2 per -1 instead of +3 and can't take as high a penalty due to the lower BAB.)

[Bardic Dave]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

And he's only getting +2 per -1 instead of +3 and can't take as high a penalty due to the lower BAB.)

Sidenote: SKR confirmed long ago that a flurrying monk uses his adjusted BAB to determine power attack / flurrying, no his regular BAB.

That aside, I agree that there's nothing insanely overpowered about this build, although it is definitely quite strong. I should point out that the Druid/Monk also has crazy saves, spells and other goodies the fighter doesn't, while still maintaining a higher potential damage.

[Happler]

Bardic Dave wrote:

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

And he's only getting +2 per -1 instead of +3 and can't take as high a penalty due to the lower BAB.)

Sidenote: SKR confirmed long ago that a flurrying monk uses his adjusted BAB to determine power attack / flurrying, no his regular BAB.

...

FAQ linkage

Quote:

Monk: How does a monk's improved BAB when flurrying interact with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, which have different effects depending on your BAB?

The monk uses his improved flurrying BAB to determine the effect of those feats.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/08/11

[prototype00]

pres man wrote:

I've got a related question, just to make sure I am understanding the PF rules.

If my druid/monk shifts into a dire bear. I can make a full attack, not a flurry though, and use the natural attacks (including grab ability) as secondary attacks after my unarmed strikes.

So assuming I have a BA of +7/+2 I could go (ignoring all the rest of the penalties and bonuses for the moment):
+7/+2 unarmed strikes and 2 claws +2 and bite +2

That sounds correct.

prototype00

[Siddhartasam]

I think that the Strong Jaw ruling makes it clear that the goal is not to uber-max the damage dice.

However, it seems to make sense to me that improved unarmed damage should transfer to humanoid forms. Otherwise...

*In the PFSRD test kitchen*

[Baleful Polymorph!] You were a Half-Elf, and now you are a full Elf! Your slightly pointier ears and imperceptibly more delicate features have rendered your 15 levels of Monk skills to crap for the duration!
///or///
You have died of dysentery, but were found by a L7 Druid. You have been reicarnated as the same race, but in "an entirely new young adult body!" Sure you look good, but because you changed bodies into a different make of the same model, you lose all class skills reasonably related to your physical form! Hope you have a wish or a miracle lying around.
_______________________________________________________

I think that wild shaping or polymorphing into a form that is at least in the same family (i.e. humanoid to humanoid) as your original should not take away the skills discussed in this thread. I would kind of understand a penalty to hit in WS, but that does not exist anywhere in the literature and would pretty much nerf the druid. The lack of such a penalty seems to suggest that knowing how to attack (as represented by BAB) carries through to other forms, along with blocking/deflecting (AC), avoiding bad things (saves) and even the ability to use US's.

Bear with me for a moment, and consider that a Sorceror or Mountain Druid archetype would logically keep Improved Unarmed Damage bonuses in his/her Giant Form I/II. You still have arms that are armed and fingers that fing. You can still kick people like Bruce Lee or punch like whoever beats up Chuck Norris in his nightmares. The monk would still hit with knuckls, muscle and bristly chest hairs. Why would being bigger make that any harder (beyond the already imposed dex penalty from size)?

[LazarX]

Grick wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

1.) There is nothing in the monk's description that lends one to think that martial arts is form dependent.

Monk: "A student of martial arts, the monk trains his body to be his greatest weapon and defense."

prototype00 wrote:

2.) There is nothing in the rules preventing awakened animals from taking levels in monk and doing basically the same thing.

If the awakened animal was polymorphed into something else, it would have the same problems (or lack thereof) as the human monk who was polymorphed into something else.

Again, as stated many times,the rules are totally built around the assumption of humanoid characters and tend to show major gaps when that assumption is broken.

[RedDogMT]

I don't see why a polymorphed monk can't use his monk skills. See, real world proof:
LINK1
LINK2