One of my friends players just built a Monk that is designed for stealth (She rules in a facing system) and seems more like an unarmed Ninja.
Common tactic sneak up behind the foe. Flurry if Blows. Fade back into shadows.
P.S.: This is a Tiefling.
Blinding Serpent: A monk build that focuses on massive CMB for tripping and blinding as well as evading one attack per round with Snake Style.
Highlights:
CMB trip check average by 12th level is about 48.
CMB dirty trick (blind) check average by 12th level is about 44.
AC using Snake Style at 12th level: about 39
Race: Half Elf
Starting Stats: STR 14/16 (+2 race bonus)
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 16
CHR 7
Alternate Racial Trait: Ancestral Arms (exotic monk, reach, trip weapon kama double chained) Note: this weapon allows you attack with reach and at close quarters without having to drop your weapon when the enemy closes).
Skills: Max out Sense Motive, Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics and spare point for whatever
Traits: Reactionary (+2 initiative), Cynic (+1 Sense Motive)
Hit Points at 12th level: 90 (Favored Bonus +1 hit point/level)
AC using Snake Style at 12th level: about 39
Saves at 12th level: Fort 13; Ref 13; Will 14
Get yourself a +3 dueling weapon found in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. This will give you a massive +9 to your CMB attempts.
CMB trip check average by 12th level is about 48.
CMB dirty trick (blind) check average by 12th level is about 44.
I will give a level by level breakdown to show how this build progresses.
1st: Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept.
Feats: Combat Reflexes
Bonus Feats: Improved Trip, Perfect Strike
Flurry of Maneuvers replaces Flurry of Blows allowing bonus CMB attack after normal attacks and no restrictions to use only Monk weapons by RAW. The maneuver master also uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers. From 1st level we can attempt to trip anyone who tries to get too close. Use perfect strike to hopefully guarantee trip when really needed.
2nd Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept.
Bonus Feats: Improved Dirty Trick, Weapon Focus: Kama, Double Chained
We can now trip and blind in the same turn.
3rd Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept.
Feat: Snake Style
Now we can tank better. We can spend an immediate action to make our AC based on our sense motive skill check which on average is around 22 at 3rd level against a ranged or melee attack.
4th Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept.
Attribute Increase: Intelligence increase to 13. Required to pick up Greater Trip at later levels
We have a Ki Pool now and the Monk ability Reliable Maneuver which allows us to spend 1 Ki point to have 2 rolls for CMB attempts.
5th Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept.
Feat: Skill Focus-Sense Motive (our Snake Style AC is now around 27)
Monk Ability Meditative Maneuver allows us to add WIS bonus to CMB attempts
6th Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept
Bonus Feats: Greater Dirty Trick (to removed blind condition now requires a standard action); Weapon Specialization-Kama, Double Chained
7th Fighter Lore Warden
Bonus Feats: Fury's Fall (add DEX bonus to trip attempts)
Feat: Power Attack
8th Fighter Lore Warden
Bonus Feats: Combat Expertise; Greater Trip
Attribute Point into STR
9th Fighter Lore Warden
Maneuver Mastery Lore Warden ability gives +2 CMB bonus
Feat: Lunge (now we have 15 feet reach for AoO)
10th Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept
11th Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept
Flurry of Maneuver grants extra free attack
Feat: Tripping Strike
12th Monk Maneuver Master and Weapon Adept
Attribute Point into STR
Bonus Feats: Evasion
The Fighter might have a slightly better To-Hit, but damage will be mostly evened out do to damage dice.
After all the most one can get from a single Weapon is a +5. 2D6 vs. 2d10. Ok the Fighter might get a +1 damage over the Monk.
This is dead wrong. Fighters dmg is just plain stupid by comparison cause their weapon training ability and access to fighter feats.
Just to demonstrate this, lets assume both the monk and the fighter are rocking 18 STR, +4 to hit & dmg. This is at level 9 without magic weapons, just cause I don't wanna scale everything out. By then the fighter has access to +2 weapon training to his main group(both attack and dmg), weapon specialization (+2 dmg) and 6 from his Two Handing a greatsword. Meaning he does a base 2d6(avg 6.5) + 10 dmg to his hits. That's ~17 dmg a hit with a plus +16 to hit(9bab+4str+2wt+1wf) without a magic/mwk item. And this is a guy who just picked a handful of core feats.
The monk has no such boost to dmg, so they just rely on their powerful unarmed attacks. At 9 they do have their dmg die, 1d10(5.5 avg). And to dmg they get... a +4. That's it. They don't get fighter feats, so no specialization, no training, and no 1.5 str. ~10 dmg a hit. And their to hit, assuming they are flurrying is only +12(9bab-2twf+4str+1wf). When you factor in magical items and everything else, and how it's much easier for a fighter to get it, it's hard to see a monk keep up with a fighter. Monks just aren't on par with fighters. In PF, they are the kings of melee dmg.
However, to get somewhat back on topic and stop beating up my beloved monk, I'd too recommend a Master of Many Styles monk. They gives up Flurry of Blows, but he does get access to a lot of cool(and useful) styles they can get(without meeting reqs) and can blend together.
My personal preference being a combination of Crane, Dragon, and Panther. You can move through a crowd, chaining panther retalitory strikes, doing 1.5 str, and keeping your ac high with crane while mitigating dmg and giving yourself an actual counter attack on your turn. If you do it right, you get as many attacks as if flurrying and at a slightly higher bonus and deal more dmg.
Effective at what, though? A fighter with a decent weapon should beat the monk hands down at combat in DPR or maneuvers. I'd love to see these character sheets.The Fighter might have a slightly better To-Hit, but damage will be mostly evened out do to damage dice.
After all the most one can get from a single Weapon is a +5. 2D6 vs. 2d10. Ok the Fighter might get a +1 damage over the Monk.
Adding Energy damage can boost the Fighter's damage a little bit as well. But will be a situational bonus.
Now I know why your monks look so good - your group do not know how to play fighters!
Let's take a 10th level build for an example, and for argument's sake, assume the fighter is gimping himself by using a scimitar and not a falchion. He should then take: Weapon Focus (scimitar) +1 to hit, Weapon Specialisation (scimitar) +2 damage, Weapon Training (blades) +2 to hit and damage, Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar) another +1 to hit, Improved Critical (scimitar).
That puts him at +4 to hit and +4 damage with a 15-20 threat range. At 10th level he should have a +2 weapon at least, so that puts him a total of +6 to hit and +6 damage. At 10th level the monk should have a +1 AoMF, and be doing 1d10 damage.
So we are comparing 1d6+6+str damage (9.5+str average) at +16+str attack bonus at threat range 15-20/x2 with 1d10+1+str damage (6.5+str average) at 10+str attack bonus (assuming Weapon Focus (unarmed4))at threat range (assuming Improved Critical (unarmed)) 19-20/x2.
Typical high AC of a CR10 target is 24, so if we (generously) assume both have 18 str (the monk should have less, the fighter more, but let's be even here) then the fighter should get:
85% + 60% = 145% hits at average 13.5 damage x 130% for criticals = 25.4475 damage.
The monk will get:
55% + 55% + 30% + 30% = 170% hits at average 10.5 damage x 110% for criticals = 19.635 damage.
On individual blows and on total damage output the fighter is kicking the monk's butt fighting with just a one-handed weapon. If he uses a greatsword or falchion, or goes sword & board, he'll dish out even more damage.
So your Fighter who is specing for damage output is using Weapon Specialization but your Monk who is specing for unarmed damage is not using Dragon Style? Yeah... thats a fair comparison. /sarcasm
I'm just saying it is starting to look like the "monks suck" crowd are purposefully trying to compare sub-optimal Monk choices to prove their point.
Yeah, I stopped commenting when the Monk was outfighting the full BAB classes. Usually that means there is a lot more going on than what is made apparent. Usually houserules that greatly favor the Monk, or players who don't know how to play melee classes while the Monk knows how to optimize.
Keep in mind, Dabbler's Fighter above isn't even all that optimized. It's pretty generic and uses only Core Rules options I believe. A lot of people will tell you that the Falchion is hands down one of, if not the, best weapons for a Fighter to use. That and there are tons of other things he could of done, the Fighter above, for example, isn't even using Power Attack or any of the other sweet, sweet, damage feats like Furious Focus or items that further bump the Fighter like Gloves of Dueling.
So your Fighter who is specing for damage output is using Weapon Specialization but your Monk who is specing for unarmed damage is not using Dragon Style? Yeah... thats a fair comparison. /sarcasm
I'm just saying it is starting to look like the "monks suck" crowd are purposefully trying to compare sub-optimal Monk choices to prove their point.
That wasn't even a pure damage build. He's using a Scimitar one handed with no shield and out damaging the Monk. He's not Power Attacking, he's not using Furious Focus, he's not using Gloves of Dueling, he's not using any Critical Feats. Nothing. It's Weapon Training, Improved Critical and the Weapon Focus/Specialization feats.
Notice, everything Dabbler chose was CORE RULES and while Dragon Style isn't. This isn't a 'damage spec' it's a pretty generic fighter.
Also, I'd like to keep this thread focused on tactics that Monks can use in game to help give themselves an edge. What feats work? Why do they work? How do you use them? What about interesting items that Monks can take advantage of? I'd like to see a thread focused on these kinds of things so people who want to play a Monk can search the thread for "Monk Tactics" and find a list available here to be used.
Tels: So it isn't core rules. Why does that matter?
Sure, it didn't use Gloves of Dueling. Those aren't core though, or does that not matter now? The Monk also wasn't using Monk's Robes which are core.
My point is that the "monks suck" crowd aren't comparing apples to apples here. I will admit that many of the stronger monk options are non-core. But I really do not know that this matters. If you are looking for good monk tactics then I think your going to need to be open minded about where those tactics come from.
On his turn, he will probably attempt to stand up, which provokes an Attack of Opportunity, which you will use to Disarm him.
[snip]
Unless he has another weapon, he will probably try and retrieve his Disarmed weapon, which provokes an AoO...
[snip]
Now on his turn, he will try to break free of the Grapple
[snip]
On his turn, he will attempt to break free
I must say that while plain monks are indeed semi-decent at combat maneuvers (and I am sure some archetypes are better), this tactic seems to rely quite a bit on the enemy doing his best to help the monk out, between spending his actions to give the monk AoOs instead of to attack the monk, or wasting them throwing himself against the monk's CMD instead of attacking the monk... Being prone does not prevent one from launching melee attacks, and being grappled does not even hamper your melee attacks unless you are a two hander (otherwise, the -2 is nicely balanced out by your grappler's -4 Dex).
I might suggest that if the enemy actually spends his time trying to harm the monk instead of trying to aid him, then what has been accomplished is to trade a possible -4 penalty to the foe's attack rolls for the monk eating two to three full attacks (more if any maneuvers fail on the first try) without causing damage in return.
As the current player of a high level fighter I can say that I have a go-to response when an enemy runs up and places himself in my full attack range, and that response is to full attack that enemy. If I am grappled, I am likely to still full attack him (and not even suffer any less chance to hit), and the same if I am prone.
I might suggest that if your strategy is to impose penalties, you need help to take advantage of them. This remains a party game. So instead of relying on your foe to give you the actions you need to throw every combat maneuver in the book at him, while taking no actions to harm you, you buddy up with party members and use one or at most two combat maneuvers per foe, with your party member being the ones to take advantage of it. For example, reposition/bull rush followed by battlefield control spells.
Monk isn't really a class that lends itself well to trying to accomplish the whole combat with its own resources, and combat maneuvers don't lend themselves well to that sort of strategy either, unless you are REALLY good at them (think barbarian good, not monk good). Rely on your party to take advantage of what you can do; trying to take advantage yourself you are relatively likely to overreach yourself.
So your Fighter who is specing for damage output is using Weapon Specialization but your Monk who is specing for unarmed damage is not using Dragon Style? Yeah... thats a fair comparison. /sarcasm
Fair enough, so let's not gimp either character and compare the full TWF fighter with a pair of kukris with the monk using Dragon Style. Fighter's base damage drops to 1d4+6+str in this example that's 12.5 average damage at -2 to hit. We'll be generous and give him just ONE extra attack. The monk has +2 damage from this configuration, the fighter we will assume gets just one extra hit (see, I am STILL giving the monk the edge).
Again we will assume both have 18 str then the fighter using TWF with a pair of kukris should get:
75% + 75% + 50% = 200% hits at average 12.5 damage x 130% for criticals = 32.5 damage.
Or the fighter could sword & board with the scimitar and a light spiked shield. So his scimitar would be:
75% + 50% = 125% hits at average 13.5 damage x 130% for criticals = 21.9375 damage.
The shield will only get the benefit of one level of weapon training for an attack bonus of +15 and 1d4+1+str damage so one hit at 50%:
50% x 7.5 x 105% = 3.9375 for a total of 25.875.
The monk with Dragon Style will get:
55% + 55% + 30% + 30% = 170% hits at average 12.5 damage x 110% for criticals = 23.375 damage (note, still LESS than the fighter attacking with just a scimitar).
Which gives the fighter better damage output than the monk WITHOUT as many attacks and probably a better AC to cap it off.
But let's go further, let's try another comparison - a two-handed fighter using a falchion, furious Focus and Power Attack would attack like this:
Attack is +20 total, for 2d4 +6 (bonuses) +6 (str) + 9 (PA) = 2d4+21 = 26 average.
85% + 45% = 130% x 26 x 130% (criticals) = 43.94
But the monk using Dragon Style can Power Attack you say? Sure he can, but he eats the penalty on all his attacks and only gains +6 to damage for it for 18.5 damage:
40% + 40% + 15% + 15% = 110% hits, so 110% x 18.5 x 110% = 22.385 DPR. Yes, Power Attack means the monk does LESS average damage because he isn't hitting as often. The two-handed fighter, meanwhile, dishes more damage in far less attacks.
I'm just saying it is starting to look like the "monks suck" crowd are purposefully trying to compare sub-optimal Monk choices to prove their point.
Quite the opposite - I am giving the monk more attacks than the fighter TWFing, and I am assuming the same primary stat. MAD usually means the fighter should be well ahead of the monk in this department, but for this I have called them equal.
Whichever way you look at it, the fighter scores more hits out of his attempts and delivers more damage per hit (except, I will concede, with the shield - but at level 11 he gets Shield Master and suddenly that shield kicks butt). I mean sure, you can gimp a fighter to do less against a really well optimised monk, but it's actually hard to do, and what are you comparing at the end of the day?
Bottom line, the monk's escalating damage dice are no match for the fighter's elevating static bonuses to damage. The monk's number of attacks are no match for the fighter's bonuses to hit. The monk has other advantages over the fighter, of course, and matching the fighter's DPR is NOT what the "fix the monk" crowd want, for the most part. However, the monk needs to be able to attack successfully and score some damage in order to be effective as a combat class, because that is what combat is all about.
{stuff}
I understand what you are saying, but in this we are not asserting the monk should be the equal of the fighter, we are dispelling Azaelas Fayth's assertion that monks match fighters for damage output. Clearly, they don't even come close.
The problkem is, we love the monk, we just are not blind to the fact that it doesn't cut it. There are encounters where the monk can contribute virtually nothing to the party, and that's a right pain. They are too MAD, and enhancement for unarmed strike lags too far behind other combat classes to allow them to hit effectively, and damage is too light to bypass the DR their lower enhancement cannot get through.
What we contend is that the monk needs some kind of power-up in order to function as a combat class. For myself I favour giving ki-strike a scaling enhancement bonus to hit only to compensate for 2nd rate enhancement. The point of this is to avoid racking up damage but enable them to score hits. Then I would add a ki-based ability to allow the monk to bypass any DR, not just a select few. This allows the principal of more hits for less damage to actually work in the Pathfinder environment. Third off, I would give the monk an ability to use Wisdom bonus to hit instead of strength or dexterity with monk weapons, unarmed strikes, and maneuvers - this helps reduce MAD without a crippling feat tax.
{stuff}I understand what you are saying, but in this we are not asserting the monk should be the equal of the fighter, we are dispelling Azaelas Fayth's assertion that monks match fighters for damage output. Clearly, they don't even come close.
Yup. I get it. Think of this as a critique/suggestion for the tactic of the first post rather than as a rejection of the idea that monks should get a buff. My current GM gives them Wisdom to hit and damage, which helps a fair bit, last time we had a monk he was not overshadowing anyone and not overshadowed in turn.
As a monk facing off against real meleers in melee combat maneuvers will be hard to land, and those classes may be able to power through minor penalties and still be deadlier than the monk can easily handle. And you definitely won't be able to count on landing four combat maneuvers in a row with no response as in the OP. So it will be better to buddy up and try to land one combat maneuver, which your buddy then exploits, than to try to land four in a row in order to win the fight with your own abilities.
I mean, I would feel terribly guilty about slaughtering some poor starry-eyed young monk because he ran up to my fighter and started throwing out trips and grapples and expected me to respond with his specialty (combat maneuver checks) instead of with my specialty (sword blows to the face).
On his turn, he will probably attempt to stand up, which provokes an Attack of Opportunity, which you will use to Disarm him.
[snip]
Unless he has another weapon, he will probably try and retrieve his Disarmed weapon, which provokes an AoO...
[snip]
Now on his turn, he will try to break free of the Grapple
[snip]
On his turn, he will attempt to break free
I must say that while plain monks are indeed semi-decent at combat maneuvers (and I am sure some archetypes are better), this tactic seems to rely quite a bit on the enemy doing his best to help the monk out, between spending his actions to give the monk AoOs instead of to attack the monk, or wasting them throwing himself against the monk's CMD instead of attacking the monk... Being prone does not prevent one from launching melee attacks, and being grappled does not even hamper your melee attacks unless you are a two hander (otherwise, the -2 is nicely balanced out by your grappler's -4 Dex).
I might suggest that if the enemy actually spends his time trying to harm the monk instead of trying to aid him, then what has been accomplished is to trade a possible -4 penalty to the foe's attack rolls for the monk eating two to three full attacks (more if any maneuvers fail on the first try) without causing damage in return.
As the current player of a high level fighter I can say that I have a go-to response when an enemy runs up and places himself in my full attack range, and that response is to full attack that enemy. If I am grappled, I am likely to still full attack him (and not even suffer any less chance to hit), and the same if I am prone.
I might suggest that if your strategy is to impose penalties, you need help to take advantage of them. This remains a party game. So instead of relying on your foe to give you the actions you need to throw every combat maneuver in the book at him, while taking no actions to harm you, you buddy up with party members and use one or at most two combat maneuvers per foe, with...
So. What you're saying is every single enemy in the game is a tactical genius with an IQ of 179. He automatically knows what the Monk has for Feats, ability scores, defenses etc. Therefore, he will, just so perfectly, use the exactly correct counter at all times.
All enemies perfectly know how to deny the Monk their abilities. Wow. What a Metagame GM. I guess I'm just going to go home and play a computer game. It's more realistic there.
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How exactly am I 'relying on the enemies' to succeed with this tactic? I see an Orc with a Greataxe. My Monk moves up and Trips him. The Orc can try and stand up, taking the -4 to hit and giving the Monk +4 to hit in return, or laymans terms, lay there like a helpless child swinging a stick, or he can try to stand up. In standing up to defend himself, the Orc loses his weapon. Now he has a choice, go bare-knuckles against the Monk, draw another weapon if he has one, run away, or retrieve his weapon. Lets say the Orc doesn't have another weapon. He's also not a coward. So he's likely to try and punch the Monk, or retrieve the Weapon. In either case, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Why? Because if he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, he's not armed, and therefore, provokes when he attacks. If he retrieves the weapon, he provokes. So the Monk gets his AoO and attempts to trip the Orc.
So the Orc is now back where he started, on his back, on the ground, and he may, or may not, have a weapon to use. But the fun part is, that it is now the Monk's turn. So the Monk crouches down, and starts grappling the Orc. Now if the Orc wants, he can attempt to break the grapple (and reverse it) or he can try and attack the Monk. Since he's using a Greataxe, he can't attack with it, so he uses his fist.
Funny story, because the Orc doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, he still provokes attacks from the Monk for attacking the Monk. Awesome how that works right?
So the Orc takes a full attack action against the Monk. Keep in mind, this whole scenario is capable of taking place at level 5, when creatures don't have multiple attacks. So the Orc gets a single attack that may, or may not, hit and deals 1d3 + str of non-lethal damage.
Either way, the Orc can try and break the grapple, or attack. If he attacks, he's automatically still grappled on the Monk's turn. If he fails to break the grapple, he's still grappled.
Now it's the Monk's turn, so he pins the Orc. Now the Orc is pinned and can't attack at all. Why? Because the Orc is limited to verbal and mental actions only, with the exception of trying to break free.
This tactic has nothing to do with relying on the Orc, except for the Orc trying to stand up after being tripped. That's all.
Not every scenario is going to be exactly like this. I wasn't saying that, and if you think I was... Well, that's your fault. This, is the most basic scenario possible for the Monk. It lines out what can be done, not what will be done. That's it.
The idea of this thread is to teach people tricks and tactics for the Monk to use. Not every idea is going to be available to every Monk. Not every Monk will penalty stack. Not every Monk will use Crane + Snake Style to be more defensive. Not every Monk will use Dragon Style to get more damage.
But once we line out good combinations of feats, tricks and tactics to use, I hope we can improve the Monk playing experience for those that are interested in playing a class that I dearly love.
I'm glad we agree! Now back on subject for Monk Tactics, it's pretty clear that the monk in combat is best off budying up with somebody. This is true of boss-fights particularly. If the monk can provide flanking he is at least doing something constructive for someone else as well as for himself.
For minions I like a monk with throw anything, some good speed and a bag of marbles (can you tell I've only played monks at low levels?). Hurl marbles and move with an acrobatics roll to jump the area of minons and marbles as part of the move. He's in place to open up a can of flurry on the minions next round and they have a choice; either move out of the area and suffer the effects of the marbles or stand there and go toe to toe with the monk...and still potentially suffer the effects of the marbles. Also works with caltrops.
I also agree that at low levels monks work well with their other teammates rather than solo. However with the monk weapon master I'm currently running she works best with a wizard. She's got high wis and dex, granting her a +5 to AC; he hits her with a mage armor just before combat making her as good as the dwarf fighter (unbreakable arch). As I mentioned before she uses her skills and usually a single swipe of her blade to get into position, then she just flurries. At the approval of the other players I got scimitar brought into the weapon adept group of weapons (she worships saranrae) so next level I'm going to go bard and my flurry will include a dervish dance in tense situations. Good Times...
Okay, well, look, I'm not really interested in getting into a line by line debate on whether a 5+ level monk can successfully lock down a CR 1/3 monster. In that case I will concede that your tactic is relatively likely be successful with little or no damage to the monk, presuming the orc is alone; with a (say, +5 bab +2 feat +3 Str) = +10 CMB vs the orc's CMD 14, the monk has a roughly 60% chance not to fail one of the three combat maneuvers he will have to make, which is better than even chances for overall success.
For fighting a CR=level to CR = level +3 meleer or similar encounter, you have my broad suggestion on tactics for a maneuver focused monk - focusing on a limited area which you buddy up with another party member to exploit (arcanist-monk cooperation often works pretty well in my experience), rather than trying to do it all yourself. Take it or leave it. :)
Oh, for unarmed damage consider the wanderer. You have to be human, but that +3 To-Hit and Damage by level 10 (via feat to improve Inspire Courage) is fantastic. It can actually bring the Monk up to a respectable Flurry DPR.
Oh I love the Wanderer, it's basically Kwai Chang Cane, but done pretty well.
An AoMF is one of the cheapest ways to get the Bane quality, next to putting it on ammunition. This also applies to any +1 weapon enhancement. Favorites include Spell Storing, Agile, and Transformative (for -extra- lulz, for many reasons. It may or may not help you bypass DR. YMMV).
The only one I would even consider is Agile with a dex-build monk on an AoMF. Otherwise, flat bonuses are what you need to get the hits. The AoMF is capped at +5 and too darned expensive otherwise.
Oh, wow. I forgot my absolute favorite thing to put on an AoMF--Dueling. It's only worth it if you have access to GMW, but boy is it worth it.
Remember that Potions/Oils of GMW/GMF +1 is almost always more efficient then actually buying a +1 Weapon, and work equally well on the Monk's Unarmed Strike.
Except for getting through DR, which they do not count for at all. DR is the bugaboo for monks, unfortunately.
Awesome post SoulGambit, with a lot of great ideas. My favorite was grappling your own fighter, and moving him around giving him full attacks. It's like a Piggy-Back Ride of DEATH!
At the stage where you'll be buying +1 Potions DR isn't that big of a deal.
I agree, the only one you are likely to find is DR/magic and you will bust past that anyway. However, at the level where you are choosing between an AoMF and potions, you are at the level where the AoMF wins.
If you feel the absolute need to use your fists in that situation, or if you want to keep some "just in case" backups instead of dedicating, weapon blanches work on your fist.
Lol, I wouldn't advise that.
These alchemical powders have a gritty consistency. When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon.
So, you put a Blanch on, and stick your hand into a fire for a full round. You take damage, then you make one punch, and the Blanch is now gone, so you have to do it all over again. Blanch is typically a waste of time unless you're using it on ammunition. Then it's amazing.
Again we will assume both have 18 str then the fighter using TWF with a pair of kukris should get:
75% + 75% + 50% = 200% hits at average 12.5 damage x 130% for criticals = 32.5 damage.The monk with Dragon Style will get:
55% + 55% + 30% + 30% = 170% hits at average 12.5 damage x 110% for criticals = 23.375 damage (note, still LESS than the fighter attacking with just a scimitar).Which gives the fighter better damage output than the monk WITHOUT as many attacks and probably a better AC to cap it off.
Shouldn't we account for confirmation of threats? In that case, if I'm not mistaken, your equations should be
kukri fighter: (75% + 75% + 50% + (75%x75% + 75%x75% + 50%x50%) x 30%) x 12.5 = 30.2
monk: (55% + 55% + 30% + 30% + (55%x55% + 55%x55% + 30%x30% + 30%x30%) x 5%) x 12.5 = 21.7 (note that I did not give the monk Improved critical as it would make just a meager +0.5 dmg difference)
So the fighter deals 39% more damage than the monk? That's the least I would expect from a fighter, especially at the cost of 4 feats (Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus) vs. 3 feats (Weapon Focus, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity).
Actually I've got the feeling that Dragon Style is too expensive, at least if you are using it only for the extra damage (here: +3.5 per round). I'd prefer other feats like combat maneuvers or e.g. Mantis Style (+2 stunning fist DC) and Mantis Wisdom (+2 to hit with stunning fist) to help with his stunning fist. Or other interesting choices...
But let's go further, let's try another comparison - a two-handed fighter using a falchion, furious Focus and Power Attack would attack like this:
Attack is +20 total, for 2d4 +6 (bonuses) +6 (str) + 9 (PA) = 2d4+21 = 26 average.
85% + 45% = 130% x 26 x 130% (criticals) = 43.94
Corrected as above the THF deals 41 dmg.
Interesting note: using a Greatsword instead of the Falchion would be better, having him deal 41.6 points.So the THF can deal up to 89% more damage than the monk. At the cost of 6 feats (Improved Critical, Furious Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus) vs. 3 feats (Weapon Focus, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity) I think that's not bad.
Remember: fighting is all the fighter does, so he should better be good at it.
Granted, a 10th level fighter starts out with 2 feats more than a monk, but even so the monk will have 1 feat to spare (or more if he didn't go Dragon Style).
Now let's have the monk spend 1 ki for an extra attack
monk (with extra attack): 28.8 dmg
Now let's take the party into account. Say, the cleric says a Prayer before the fight (should be quite common). Now the results are:
monk: 26.3 (34.6 with extra attack)
kukri fighter: 35.4, i.e. +35% (+2% vs monk with extra attack)
THF: 46.4, i.e. +76% (+34% vs. monk with extra attack)
Hey, the monk profits more from the prayer ;-)
And the extra attack really shines.
So, do you REALLY think that is sooo bad? In that case: Do you think that the kukri fighter is broken and needs to be fixed? Or the sword and board fighter? Or the cleric (as a melee participant)? Is the only melee character viable in Pathfinder an optimized THF (or similar builds)?
Granted, the fighter would probably have 4 points more strength like you said.
That's why I agree that the monk should have a moderate innate bonus to hit on unarmed attacks and CMB (say, +1 per 4 levels, which would add 5.2 dmg per round in the above example (without prayer and without extra attack) and - more importantly - would help with stunning fist and combat maneuvers).
Some nice ideas, SoulGambit0!
I didn't know the 7-branched sword made flat-footed. Good to know.
In an environment with few/no buffs, Monkey Shine is actually better than Dragon Ferocity for damage. You run up to the person, deliver the stunning fist, and on your next turn enjoy that +4 To-Hit/AC during a Flurry of Blows. Remember, they don't have to fail their save, you just have to deliver the Stunning Fist.
The text of Monkey Shine says "successfully deliver a Stunning Fist attempt" and goes on "in addition to the normal effect of Stunning Fist" (emphasis mine).
I take that to mean that they do have to fail their save (otherwise the stunning fist would not be successful and there would not be a normal effect). Otherwise that +4 bonus would be too easy to get...| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mantis Style (+2 DC) and Mantis Wisdom (+2 to hit) to improve your chances of succeeding with a Stunning fist attempt.
Throw shuriken when you drop your last foe but still have attacks left in your flurry but no foe is reachable by a 5 ft step (or if you already used your 5 ft step).
Throw shuriken at the spellcaster whose bodyguards are keeping you from getting up to him.
Hitting a spellcaster with a shuriken while he is busy casting a 1 round spell like Summon Monster would give a nice penalty on his concentration roll even with the low damage of shuriken.
Note that while shuriken might not have a large damage die, they are thrown weapons which means strength adds to damage and you might even take Point-Blank Shot for +1/+1 (which will almost always apply to your typical shuriken range) or even Deadly Aim (although the latter would be only useful against low AC enemies).
TGM this isn't a 'How to Improve the Monk' thread. Please, there are numerous other threads out there that are.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but apparently the 'pro-Monk crowd' hijacks any thread that remotely approaches anything to do with Monks to complain about how bad the Monk is or how to improve the Monk or how much we hate Paizo and that Paizo is an anti-Monk tyrannical corporation bent on keeping eastern-themed classes firmly ground into the dirt below the heel of western themed classes where they belong.
Seriously. There's even a thread complaining about Monk threads and the Monk-lovers on these forums. Seems a number of people think any and all Monk threads should be deleted from this forum.
So lets try to keep this thread on-topic as much as possible so we don't piss off any other posters.
Anyways, on the DR issue, I'm kinda okay with there being entire classifications of monsters that the Monk does poorly against. You don't see Fighter fans complaining when they face a someone who prompts Will-Saves at a distance.
That's because if they fail and he hits them, they still splatter - and most will saves that shut you down allow a save every round. In short, the fighter is not ineffective against these targets, he simply has a vulnerability to their abilities and they have to spend time neutralising him. The monk being completely ineffective against a large group of creatures without said creatures having to waste so much as an action is a problem, because it means that you can end up a wallflower in half the encounters. If that's your idea of fun, great, but it isn't mine.
{stuff}
Actually, I already factored in the threat and criticals. If your threat range is 15-20, then that's a 30% chance of a threat, which doubles your damage for an x2 crit. You have the same chance as confirming the critical hit as you have of making the original attack, so it actually works out as (original chance)x(average damage)x(threat chance)=bonus damage. When you add this to the original value, you find that you get the same result as multiplying the original value by 130% in the above example. It only changes if your original chance to hit was less than the percentage chance of getting a threat.
In any event, these example - which isn't even trying hard with the fighter, quite frankly, we could give him another extra attack with TWF - clearly demonstrates that the fighter's static bonuses and greater threat ranges easily trump the monks rising damage dice, which was the point of contention.
Anyway I'm glad you agree about the innate bonus - now let's get back on subject before Tels blows a gasket!
Anyway I'm glad you agree about the innate bonus - now let's get back on subject before Tels blows a gasket!
Yup :-)
Especially as Tels would be right :-D
Say, what about expanding on the flanking buddy idea and giving a monk a Menacing weapon? The monk doesn't even have to use it, just wield it. I'm still thinking about alternatives to doing damage--as this character just won't do a lot of damage.
Seeing how I started some of this derailing let me help put it back on track some.
Recently, as an NPC, I made a Half-Elf- Martial Artist Monk, specializing in Crane. He was, suprisingly effective and out lived and out damaged his barbarian and fighter allies. The party was more scared of him than the BBEG, partly becuase they realized they couldn't hit him without hurtning themselves so they ended up focusing on the Barbarian first(Cause ac penalty from raging). However, I attribute his survival and effectiveness to the Martial Artist ability they get in exchange for Ki, Exploit Weakness, which gives monks a reason to boost WIS more than most when combined with his other abilities. His stats were at lvl 7, off a 20 point buy:
16 str (14 base + 2 from Belt)
16 dex (14 base + 2 from Belt)
12 con
09 int
20 wis (17 base + 2 from race + 1 @ lvl 4)
07 cha
The emphasis on WIS with this build is made to ensure sucess on his Exploit Weakeness check. (1d20 + 12(5 WIS + Monk Level)vs 10 + opponent's CR) means that it practically guarentees the bonus to hit & bypass DR most rounds.
As for items, at this level, I'm let the monk take his 23k gold and spend like so: 10 K for a +2 Belt of Physical Might(boosting STR & DEX) alotting it as both a weapon and a defensive item, 2K for an Amulet of Natural Armor and another 1K on a Ring of protection. Then with the rest, he bought nice clothes and potions of Mage Armor & Cure.
For feats:
Half Elf Feat - Skill Focus(Acrobatics)
Monk 1 Dodge
1 Crane Style
MB2 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
5 Crane Wing
M6 Deflect Arrows
7 Crane Riposte
For his slightly stunted skills, he would use his FC bonus to shore this up some. He'd put ranks into Acrobatics, Sense Motive, and Perception, using the 4th to shore up other areas.
During combat, he would as a swift "scan" someone with exploit weakness, and grant himself the bonus to Attack, then FoB while fighting defensively. The +2 atk bonus makes up for the Negative from FD, and every +1 counts. While flurrying, he was hitting at +10+10(7Bab-2twf+3str+1wf) and bypassing dr if they had any, mixing in his higher DC'd stunning fists.
As for AC, he was at 26 AC(10+3dex+5wis+1Monk+1deflect+1NatAC+4fd+1dodge). If needed, if needed, he could boost his AC by half his level against a single target, getting at this level a +3 to AC, bringing his AC to 29 with the ability to negate one melee attack and one ranged attack, while maintaining respectable to hit.
His damage still sorta sucks(only +3), but +10/+10 & 29 AC at level 7, is respectable.
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@Dabbler: Wouldn't know, having played Monks excessively since Pathfinder came out, I've never been a wallflower before. Well, except when stealthing, of course.
Margaret is pretty good, but that gives her only a 30% success rate and against some creatures much less, against some much more - it's not something you can rely on at this level. Many creatures also have DR, and I noticed you only included DR5/- rather than the more common DR 10/good I see looking at monster stats. DR10 doesn't quite shut down Marg, but it sucks almost all of the damage out of her attacks. It's just an annoyance to the 2-handers though.
Also, your points about damage thresholds ignore the fact that there is a party involved, and assume that the monk or fighter is the soul damage dealer. They probably aren't, there will be other effects in play. In general, every point counts because that rogue might get a lucky sneak attack, the casters might lay in a damaging spell that tips the damage over the threshold.
Wallflowering? Last session ended with my level 10 monk facing a creature that is flying, has DR10/good, and while I don't know the CMD, this thing is several CRs above our level, large sized, so I'm not holding out much hope. I am basically reduced to flanking with the paladin and praying for a 20 on grapple checks. I'm not having fun here.
@Dabbler: Thresholds work in a party setting too, it's just that the DPR becomes "Party DPR." The thresholds are also the same because then it becomes a measure of "Man-Turns" (think Man-Hours, not trying to be sexist here), and the inbetween numbers matter more because it allows your other party members to be slightly below the threshold.
You also have to factor in opening turn / the approach. Realistically, and this is why I'm not a -huge- fan of offensive fighting styles, the Monk wants to assess whether throwing a net or tripping as an opening thing is better: then either drop / throw a net, then move into flanking position while drawing his next supplemental weapon of choice, and then trip if that was the choice. Swift action should be used to pop a Ki for +4 AC so you survive the next turn. The party Rogue moves up and and attacks with flanking against the enemy with lower AC.
Yes, I've found that opening with maneuvers is a good tactic for monks against anything humanoid, against non-humanoid...well...
@All
"But what does a Monk do against monsters?!"
I must admit, most of my games are predominently against enemies with class levels, which is where the Monk excels.
This is the thing, you don't always know. In some games I have found that the game is played to the strengths of a character sometimes, and to their weaknesses at others. The monk is good against some creatures, useless against others. It's a weakness the monk has and there are no easy work-arounds except to make use of teamwork.
My first post is an example of a Monk that works great against Humanoids. My GMs tend to like Humanoids because they can make for more interesting enemies.
Sure, Dragons, Giants, Oozes and stuff are great monsters, but it's those Humanoids with class levels that can get under your skin and really make you hate them.
I subscribe to a similar thought process, but I also like playing Monsters to their Strengths so they are used in my games as well. The last major session I ran had a Black Dragon that like to grapple and drown people in his lake. My players weren't used to such different tactics for a Dragon and the session didn't go so well for them (2 people died).
In my games, focusing on Maneuvers doesn't work so well because I like mixing it up with monsters, but in the games I play in, I know that a Maneuver character can do extremely well.
[Edit] By the way, SoulGambit, I'm really enjoying your posts. They really help guide other players into thinking outside of the box and is exactly what I wanted when I created this thread. I wish more players would stop lamenting on what the Monk can't do and trying giving advice on what the Monk can do to help improve other players experiences.
Who knows, maybe some one will write a Monk Guide: Player Options one day.
I think one of the keys to playing a successful monk is to have quick wits. While you can certainly find tactics that improve your performance, the main thing that the monk has going is adaptability. Regardless of what tactic you consider your "main", there will be lots of times where that's ineffective.
Lots of time you will provide support for other characters - feeding potions to unconscious friends, provide flanking bonuses, reach the lever in the ceiling and so on. Some will say that most classes can do this, and while it's true for each individual action, the monk can easily adjust this from turn to turn. A druid might have to turn into a fast creature to provide flanking effectively, turn back to get the potion, and then summon a flying creature to reach the lever.
As a monk, you need to improvise constantly. Be very aware of your environment - you can often interact with environment the other's can't (at least not as easily). Search for weak spots and hit them as hard as you can - both when it comes to enemy tactics and supporting beams of the dungeon.
Actually, I already factored in the threat and criticals.
<slaps head> Just wanted to say that you are right, of course. Don't know what I had been thinking... <wanders off muttering>
Actually, I already factored in the threat and criticals.<slaps head> Just wanted to say that you are right, of course. Don't know what I had been thinking... <wanders off muttering>
I have days like that too.
I think one of the keys to playing a successful monk is to have quick wits. While you can certainly find tactics that improve your performance, the main thing that the monk has going is adaptability. Regardless of what tactic you consider your "main", there will be lots of times where that's ineffective.
Lots of time you will provide support for other characters - feeding potions to unconscious friends, provide flanking bonuses, reach the lever in the ceiling and so on. Some will say that most classes can do this, and while it's true for each individual action, the monk can easily adjust this from turn to turn. A druid might have to turn into a fast creature to provide flanking effectively, turn back to get the potion, and then summon a flying creature to reach the lever.
As a monk, you need to improvise constantly. Be very aware of your environment - you can often interact with environment the other's can't (at least not as easily). Search for weak spots and hit them as hard as you can - both when it comes to enemy tactics and supporting beams of the dungeon.
Some very good points there, stringburka.