Which weakness would that be? The barbarian's high save makes him effectively as immune to poison and disease as the monk. He superstition makes him more resistant to most mental attacks and spells, and he has the same base save.
He has a lower AC, but dishes out way more damage. He has twice the hit points and DR 6/- means he often takes less damage than the monk per round anyway.
The only disadvantage the barbarian has is his lack of evasion and a brilliant reflex save (his is merely good). This came out against several foes, but his higher hit-points allowed him to withstand it, and his ability to damage those foes significantly (which the monk could not do) meant he is still the better choice for party member.
Edit: Actually Wraithstrike at close range the dwarf-monk's shurikens are as good if not better, because of his better dexterity and hence better chances to hit. This whole thing has taught me that odds to hit cannot be underestimated.
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Ciretose actual asserts the monk is competitive, not better. Ciretose fully acknowledges the monk needs to be able to increase attack bonus for unarmed, because AOMF is crap.
And if it is a mediocre build, post a better one.
On many occasions the monks defense has been better, not just for AC, but for evasion, saves, immunities, etc...and respectfully Dabbler keeps forgetting spell resistance and assuming the barbarian is raging (he also assumes I have spent ki points on AC...). The monk is able to overcome or ignore most spell effects that have been on the table, from the breath weapons to the fireballs, etc...
Yes if you close to melee the Barbarian does better. And water is wet and the sky is blue.
I have suggested, and would greatly prefer, scenarios pulled from Modules and APs rather than "random monster fights in ideal setting" kind of stuff, but I don't want to criticize Dabbler because he is at least doing something, and I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
If someone wants to come up with a setting, we can use the dice roller and roll it out, with anyone who likes playing the iconics using the stats blocks from the APs.
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This whole thing has taught me that odds to hit cannot be underestimated.
Beating a dead horse, I contend this is the only area that needs to be addressed. If I could enhance my fists in the same way others can enhance weapons, rather than having to pay more for an amulet that also takes up a slot, I can hit things and those things will be at risk of being stunned/staggered/etc...
And then we are having a whole other discussion.
Ciretose actual asserts the monk is competitive, not better. Ciretose fully acknowledges the monk needs to be able to increase attack bonus for unarmed, because AOMF is crap.
And if it is a mediocre build, post a better one.
On many occasions the monks defense has been better, not just for AC, but for evasion, saves, immunities, etc...and respectfully Dabbler keeps forgetting spell resistance and assuming the barbarian is raging (he also assumes I have spent ki points on AC...). The monk is able to overcome or ignore most spell effects that have been on the table, from the breath weapons to the fireballs, etc...
Yes if you close to melee the Barbarian does better. And water is wet and the sky is blue.
I have suggested, and would greatly prefer, scenarios pulled from Modules and APs rather than "random monster fights in ideal setting" kind of stuff, but I don't want to criticize Dabbler because he is at least doing something, and I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
If someone wants to come up with a setting, we can use the dice roller and roll it out, with anyone who likes playing the iconics using the stats blocks from the APs.
First of all, we need a list.
I've personally rand Curse of the Crimson Throne, so that's not a spoiler for me. I have no intention of playing in Carrion Crown, so that's not an issue for me. I have read Council of Thieves, so that's not an issue for me either.
However, I am currently playing in both Kingmaker and Legacy of Fire, so encounters pulled from those 2 should be used.
OR! At least each encounter should be tagged under a "So and SO AP Spoilers!" so those that haven't read the APs don't ruin fights.
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I will admit, I did not see your post about using AP scenarios, or skipped over that line, or forgot.
[Edit] By the way, the build itself isn't mediocre. I mentioned when you first posted it I like the build and thought it was good. Nearly all Monks ability to hit and deal damage, however, is mediocre. That's the core problem with the Monk. Exceptions of course are, the Sohei, Zen Archer and possibly Martial Artist (though he can deal damage because he can overcome DR).
Which weakness would that be? The barbarian's high save makes him effectively as immune to poison and disease as the monk. He superstition makes him more resistant to most mental attacks and spells, and he has the same base save.
He has a lower AC, but dishes out way more damage. He has twice the hit points and DR 6/- means he often takes less damage than the monk per round anyway.
The only disadvantage the barbarian has is his lack of evasion and a brilliant reflex save (his is merely good). This came out against several foes, but his higher hit-points allowed him to withstand it, and his ability to damage those foes significantly (which the monk could not do) meant he is still the better choice for party member.
Edit: Actually Wraithstrike at close range the dwarf-monk's shurikens are as good if not better, because of his better dexterity and hence better chances to hit. This whole thing has taught me that odds to hit cannot be underestimated.
At close range the the monk is taking AoO's. At farther ranged he is taking penalties. I did just assumed the enemy would try to be far away though.
Flurry +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (1d2+6) (-3+6 for deadly aim)
Let's say I have a +1 bow which is what I said a while back.
+16/+11/+6 1d8+7Of course looking at our attack bonus and the monsters AC they are most likely laughing at both of us. I guess that fly potion should be chugged. If Ciretose has enough money left I am assuming he would have a potion of fly also.
For any late comers:
PS:I forgot to get a bow, but in a real game that would not happen. I do have close to 12000 go left over so I can afford a +1 bow and any consumables such as fly potions.
No worries. I think either spoiler or moving it to a new thread is the way to go. Probably the later as I am even having trouble finding my own build at this point :)
I bookmarked both builds so I would not have to look for them.
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Also, Wraith and I should probably finish them, as both of us have gold left. I'm thinking more potions at this point unless someone has some suggestions.
That said, I just got home and my wife and the baby are out of town for a day, so I'm drinking beer and playing Skyrim, so forgive any gaps or lack of coherence...well...more than normal.
Ciretose actual asserts the monk is competitive, not better. Ciretose fully acknowledges the monk needs to be able to increase attack bonus for unarmed, because AOMF is crap.
And if it is a mediocre build, post a better one.
On many occasions the monks defense has been better, not just for AC, but for evasion, saves, immunities, etc...and respectfully Dabbler keeps forgetting spell resistance and assuming the barbarian is raging (he also assumes I have spent ki points on AC...). The monk is able to overcome or ignore most spell effects that have been on the table, from the breath weapons to the fireballs, etc...
Yes if you close to melee the Barbarian does better. And water is wet and the sky is blue.
I have suggested, and would greatly prefer, scenarios pulled from Modules and APs rather than "random monster fights in ideal setting" kind of stuff, but I don't want to criticize Dabbler because he is at least doing something, and I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
If someone wants to come up with a setting, we can use the dice roller and roll it out, with anyone who likes playing the iconics using the stats blocks from the APs.
First of all, we need a list.
I've personally rand Curse of the Crimson Throne, so that's not a spoiler for me. I have no intention of playing in Carrion Crown, so that's not an issue for me. I have read Council of Thieves, so that's not an issue for me either.
However, I am currently playing in both Kingmaker and Legacy of Fire, so encounters pulled from those 2 should be used.
OR! At least each encounter should be tagged under a "So and SO AP Spoilers!" so those that haven't read the APs don't ruin fights.
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I will admit, I did not see your post about using AP scenarios, or skipped over that line, or forgot.
All of those are ok for me also.
For Carrion crown both the barbarian and monk have an easy time if you use the book 5 boss encounter because of our high save modifiers.
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Also, Wraith and I should probably finish them, as both of us have gold left. I'm thinking more potions at this point unless someone has some suggestions.
That said, I just got home and my wife and the baby are out of town for a day, so I'm drinking beer and playing Skyrim, so forgive any gaps or lack of coherence...well...more than normal.
I have to leave to to go work soon, but I will round the build out when I get home. Well not real soon, but not enough time to carefully choose items.
To anyone reading I think both myself and Ciretose are open to suggestions.
Ciretose actual asserts the monk is competitive, not better. Ciretose fully acknowledges the monk needs to be able to increase attack bonus for unarmed, because AOMF is crap.
To do so you have to define competitive at what? Would a party of iconics pick the barbarian over the monk? Yes they would. The monk only excels in a few areas which are not that common.
And if it is a mediocre build, post a better one.
On many occasions the monks defense has been better, not just for AC, but for evasion, saves, immunities, etc...and respectfully Dabbler keeps forgetting spell resistance and assuming the barbarian is raging (he also assumes I have spent ki points on AC...). The monk is able to overcome or ignore most spell effects that have been on the table, from the breath weapons to the fireballs, etc...
Actually the barbarian has fared as well against many of these effects save those involving reflex saves and involving evasion. At these points his mere 100+ extra hit points have helped. Spell resistance is not something I have forgotten or ignored, it just isn't that important. Most of the spells thrown have been area effects to which improved evasion was so effective SR was moot, or were thrown by creatures with sufficient caster level to leave it dead.
Plus it is a hell of a lot more likely that the barbarian will have rounds of rage to burn than the monk will have ki, so I do not think I am being unreasonable. In fact, I've bent over backwards to give the monk encounters he could fight effectively. The barbarian still did it better. I posted up my own monk build that hit as hard and was better protected. The barbarian still did it better.
Yes if you close to melee the Barbarian does better. And water is wet and the sky is blue.
And the monk can do what, other than melee? I have included stunning fist, and found it largely ineffective. I have included maneuvers, and in all cases but one they were a poor choice. I have included spring attack, and in most cases it was a bad idea.
I have suggested, and would greatly prefer, scenarios pulled from Modules and APs rather than "random monster fights in ideal setting" kind of stuff, but I don't want to criticize Dabbler because he is at least doing something, and I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
Sadly I do not have a supply of them, and we would then have to include a huge dynamic of possible party members on top, and this would lead to long debates about "if X party member did Y it would have boosted the monk...but if they did Z then it would help everyone..."
If someone wants to come up with a setting, we can use the dice roller and roll it out, with anyone who likes playing the iconics using the stats blocks from the APs.
Which is even MORE complex and convoluted, and the luck of the dice can swing things one way or the other. Look we've done this to the best detail possible in a post thread, and the monk lost out. Badly. I don't think doing it all again with masses of posts are more arguments is going to change this outcome one jot.
This whole thing has taught me that odds to hit cannot be underestimated.Beating a dead horse, I contend this is the only area that needs to be addressed. If I could enhance my fists in the same way others can enhance weapons, rather than having to pay more for an amulet that also takes up a slot, I can hit things and those things will be at risk of being stunned/staggered/etc...
No disagreement that the odds if hitting is the monks major problem, but his lack of options and his lack of synergy in abilities is also an issue, and a big one.
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Thanks for the link wraith. I actually had a decent amount of gold left, but I lost the sheet.
Looking at it now...crap I have a lot of gold left. Can someone check my math. This isn't including the odds and ends (2 potions, cold iron sai, shruiken of various types of materials for overcoming dr...)
Belt of Physical Might +4 40000
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 16000
Monk Robe 13000
Bracers of Armor +4 16000
Amulet of might fist +2 20000
ring of protection +1 2000
Handy Haversack 2000
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109000
And we are allowed 140k I think? Wow...so anyone have any suggestions on how to spend about 25k :)
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Dabbler, the game is complex and convoluted. Just running numbers ignores movement, synergy, strategy...it just isn't an honest reflection.
To be clear I think you have done the best so far, but I have said from the beginning I think you have to look at premade scenarios, not just pull from the bestiary.
Ciretose actual asserts the monk is competitive, not better. Ciretose fully acknowledges the monk needs to be able to increase attack bonus for unarmed, because AOMF is crap.
And if it is a mediocre build, post a better one.
On many occasions the monks defense has been better, not just for AC, but for evasion, saves, immunities, etc...and respectfully Dabbler keeps forgetting spell resistance and assuming the barbarian is raging (he also assumes I have spent ki points on AC...). The monk is able to overcome or ignore most spell effects that have been on the table, from the breath weapons to the fireballs, etc...
Yes if you close to melee the Barbarian does better. And water is wet and the sky is blue.
I have suggested, and would greatly prefer, scenarios pulled from Modules and APs rather than "random monster fights in ideal setting" kind of stuff, but I don't want to criticize Dabbler because he is at least doing something, and I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
If someone wants to come up with a setting, we can use the dice roller and roll it out, with anyone who likes playing the iconics using the stats blocks from the APs.
Your saves are not better, except for reflex saves, and even then the barbarian's save is not that bad. Many of the monster's use SU's which bypass SR. I will admit that I never accounted for the SR either. Which fights had spells as a primary option other than the oni?
How is the monk's high AC helping the party?
If the bad guy does not close with the barbarian then the barbarian will close with them.
I guess I agreed that the barbarian is mediocre because it does not do much more than hit things hard, which it does well. If I diversify then I am weakening the class. If don't have the motivation to do another barbarian though since this one is doing well enough. Others are free to try though. As I said before there are better builders than me for this class.
I prefer to avoid the iconics. The barbarian and monk will probably both be dead due to lack of support.
PS:I do remember another poster saying the barbarian's defense blows the monk's out of the water. I do think the defense could be better, but then I have to sacrifice offense. It does not seem that the barbarian has a great edge in defense. That is the barbarian build I would like to see. If I can get the monk's AC or even get the barbarian's to be about 5 higher that would be great.
This whole thing has taught me that odds to hit cannot be underestimated.Beating a dead horse, I contend this is the only area that needs to be addressed. If I could enhance my fists in the same way others can enhance weapons, rather than having to pay more for an amulet that also takes up a slot, I can hit things and those things will be at risk of being stunned/staggered/etc...
And then we are having a whole other discussion.
Why not use a martial weapon like the temple sword? I know that the monk people envision uses unarmed strikes, but I do think it would be better IMHO. Your offhand weapon can be a light weapon that works with flurry.
Thanks for the link wraith. I actually had a decent amount of gold left, but I lost the sheet.
Looking at it now...crap I have a lot of gold left. Can someone check my math. This isn't including the odds and ends (2 potions, cold iron sai, shruiken of various types of materials for overcoming dr...)
Belt of Physical Might +4 40000
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 16000
Monk Robe 13000
Bracers of Armor +4 16000
Amulet of might fist +2 20000
ring of protection +1 2000
Handy Haversack 2000
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109000And we are allowed 140k I think? Wow...so anyone have any suggestions on how to spend about 25k :)
The math is correct. If you drop the amulet of might fist you can get 2 +3 weapons, and still have 9000ish left over.
I do not know, monk fans should know better. A chasse for example.I proppose to choose encounters that target the barbarian weakkness and let the monk shine. If the barbarian still wins or at least draw then the dispute is over.What encounters are those?.
A chase is not an encounter really, and monster at this level can teleport or have other ways to escape. If they try to run the casters lock them down with battlefield control.
In any event chases are corner cases. If the monk chases down a CR 13 monster he might get his butt kicked. By the CMD of many of them he won't be grappling them and/or dragging them back to the party.
Even on top of that the barbarian can be hasted to 70. Not to many things are that fast anyway.
edit: changed the teleport statement.
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Pre-Flurry ruling, two handed temple swords were the bomb, but I always hated how they felt with the flavor as they out shined unarmed by so much.
I can see a couple ways to go, I can get my saves or AC even higher, or I can invest in some tricks. 25k is a good chunk of change, but at this level bumps get expensive.
I do not know, monk fans should know better. A chasse for example.I proppose to choose encounters that target the barbarian weakkness and let the monk shine. If the barbarian still wins or at least draw then the dispute is over.What encounters are those?.
Nicos, while a chase is an interesting idea, you're forgetting the level that these characters are built at. We're at the level where it's not uncommon for monsters to have teleport, dimension door or flight as abilities, some even as at-will abilities. Chases can't accurately reflect the usage of classes, at this level, because it's so ridiculously easy to get away.
You mention Monk fans, and I'm going to go ahead and stick my head out and say some of the people (Dabbler, and Master Arminas to name two) could easily be considered Monk Experts. Most of us here have very high levels of System Mastery, so even those that aren't experts on the strengths and weaknesses of Monks, can easily look at a Monk and say, "What is he good at? What is he bad at? What can I do to make him better?"
The problem is, the Monk itself, as a class, isn't very good at many things. The best abilities it does have, only scratches the surface of most other classes with similar abilities, and those other classes do it a lot better.
The Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Cavalier, Samurai, Anti-Paladin, melee-Bard and possibly Magus can all, to varying degrees, be better at melee combat than the Monk, who is a melee class. This isn't even including things like when a Ranger fights his favored enemy, or a Paladin smiting, or a Cavalier/Samurai issuing a challenge.
Even when those classes are at their most basic, the Monk may be able to 'just' meet them, but only if he is very min-maxed to do so. However such a Monk will probably have very low AC and as such, suffer badly in a fight.
I myself am knowledgeable about the game, and the Monk, but I don't consider myself an expert. I speak from experience when I say most people I play with, or have seen play, a Monk are very disappointed with the class in nearly always, and often times either kill off, or retire the character for something more useful.
At around 7th level, a Chase could be a good scene for the Monk, but the problem is, a Chase scene is viewed as a corner case as it's so rare to actually come up.
There is a reason why the people considered to be 'Monk Experts' have all posted their own possible Monk 'fixes' simply to make the class a viable choice and be fairly good at it's role.
good stuffI do not know, monk fans should know better. A chasse for example.I proppose to choose encounters that target the barbarian weakkness and let the monk shine. If the barbarian still wins or at least draw then the dispute is over.What encounters are those?.I agree. I find the monk lackluster myself, i am not arguing in favor of the monk.
I am propposing a mental excersie: can someone provide a scenario in wich the monk clearly outshine the barbarian?
The Monk can run away a lot quicker than the Barbarian.
I'd also say the best way for a Monk to beat a Barbarian, is as a pseudo-skill monkey. Though they do have the same skill points (4+int mod) the Monk is set-up more to be a stealth/infiltrator than the Barbarian. At 13th level, the Monk would be actually a fairly decent one. Because if poo hits the fan, he can Abundant Step away and flee back to the party.
[Edit] Although this does remind me of a story my GM told me.
"What happens if you're out camping, and you're dog runs off. Then the dog comes running back to the camp with a grizzly bear on it's heals?"
"You shoot the dog."
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The key to being convincing is to not propose things. Anything I propose will be biased, much like if I picked the level it would be biased.
At this point I can say I didn't pick the level and I've taken all comers and I don't think my monk is aquaman, which means my monk is a party contributor, which is all I was trying to demonstrate.
Anything else ascribed to my position is just that, ascribed.
I think the monk needs better attack bonuses for unarmed, and that is pretty much it.
Why not use a martial weapon like the temple sword? I know that the monk people envision uses unarmed strikes, but I do think it would be better IMHO. Your offhand weapon can be a light weapon that works with flurry.This whole thing has taught me that odds to hit cannot be underestimated.Beating a dead horse, I contend this is the only area that needs to be addressed. If I could enhance my fists in the same way others can enhance weapons, rather than having to pay more for an amulet that also takes up a slot, I can hit things and those things will be at risk of being stunned/staggered/etc...
And then we are having a whole other discussion.
Because frankly you then have a TWF fighter but without the weapon training and weapon specialisation, or the d10 hit dice, or the option to stop TWFing to try and get better odds to hit. In return you get some good saves and a very few abilities actually worth having that don't help you do what you are there to do very much.
Sorry, but there it is.
Dabbler, the game is complex and convoluted. Just running numbers ignores movement, synergy, strategy...it just isn't an honest reflection.
To be clear I think you have done the best so far, but I have said from the beginning I think you have to look at premade scenarios, not just pull from the bestiary.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. The thing is, I still do not see what the monk brings to the party at the moment. It is NOT just an issue of the lack of enhancement/hit bonus, it's down to the lack of options all round.
I mean, a made a fairly hard hitting monk out of Icandu who is very hard to hurt, but ultimately he is a glass cannon and he can't hit as well as a fallen paladin. He can just about function as a scout, and is good in some fights. The price for this is many feats spent just to keep up (including the feat-tax of Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers just to get out of some of the MADness), no decent hit points, and very little flexibility of build all round.
Hitting better would help, hitting better and having more options would help a lot more.
i guess i shall propose a Fighter for this Excersize.
Ulgar "The Horrid'
Male 13th lvl chaotic neutral dwarven dawnflower dervish fighter
Senses; Darkvision 60 feet, Perception
Attributes; Str 18 (22) Dex 14 (18) Con 14 (18) int 12 wis 14 (18) Cha 5
Gear; Belt of Physical Perfection +4 (64K) Headband of inspired wisdom +4 (16K) +3 mithril Kikko (13,030) Ring of protection +3 amulet of natural armor +3 (18k) +3 Glaive (18k3010) +2 spiked gauntlet (8,305) +2 composite longbow (+6 Str) (9360) Quiver of endless arrows (2K) cloak of resitanc +4 (16k) Boots of striding and springing. (5.5K) gloves of dueling (15K)
HP 148 (13HD= 70+52 con +13 toughness +13 FC) speed 20 (30 w/ boots)
Feats; Steel Soul, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, iron will, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus/Specialization (Glaive/longbow) Greater weapon focus/specialization (glaive/longbow) toughness
Traits; Indomitable Faith, Observant (+1 to perception checks, perception is a class skill)
Saves
Fort +16 (8+4+4) (+4 vs poison, spells and spell like abilities)
Ref +12 (4+4+4) (+4 vs poison, spells and spell like abilities)
Will +15 (4+4+4+2+1) (+4 vs poison, spells and spell like abilities)
Attack Bonuses
Glaive +27/22/17 (+13+6+3+2+2+3) 1d10+21
Power Attack +23/18/13 1d10+33
Longbow +23/18/13 (+13+4+2+2+2) 1d8+14
Deadly Aim +19/14/9 1d8+22
Spiked Gauntlet +24/19/14 (+13+6+1+2+2) 1d4+11
Power Attack +20/15/10 1d4+19
AC 28 (8+4+3+3) Touch 17 FF 24
Class Abilities; Weapon Training Polearms (+3) Bows (+2) Close (+1) burst of speed (no ac penalty when charging) desert stride, rapid attack (move and full attack)
Skills
Perception +21 (13+3+4+1)
Climb +10 (1+3+6)
Swim +10 (1+3+6)
Diplomacy +10 (13-3)
Survival +8 (1+3+8)
Ride +8 (1+3+4)
Knowledge (Engineering) +8 (4+3+1)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +8 (4+3+1)
Profession (Soldier) +8 (1+3+4)
Racial; see dwarf
other. 5 AoOs per round
build was made a little hastily because i don't have access to the SRD.
I take it the SRD is saying 'You don't have access to this' for you as well?
I take it the SRD is saying 'You don't have access to this' for you as well?
yep.
I love how we have three Dwarves. 4 more and we are calling Dabblers monk "Snow White" :)
I wasn't going to comment, on the Dwarves. If I remember correctly, I think Dwarves were point out as the 'best powergaming race' because they get some of the best abilities for their racial bonuses.
i guess i shall propose a Fighter for this Excersize.
** spoiler omitted **build was made a little hastily because i don't have access...
We can wait. Build a complete fighter when you get time. I am sure you will get your fighter done before the monk is fixed. :)
I love how we have three Dwarves. 4 more and we are calling Dabblers monk "Snow White" :)I wasn't going to comment, on the Dwarves. If I remember correctly, I think Dwarves were point out as the 'best powergaming race' because they get some of the best abilities for their racial bonuses.
When a class has a low will base save dwarves are nice. :)
Getting bonuses to two always useful stats and a penalty to a fairly common dump-stat is nice too.
I want to say again I hate AoMF. A couple of good neck slot items are out thanks to it...
You could get the other effects placed on the same amulet, but it'll cost you in resources (which isn't super fair since you're already paying out the butt for an AoMF, but we win some and we lose some).
Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
I do not think there is a monk player anywhere that does not loath the AoMF; I know I certainly do. It's too expensive and it does not provide enough enhancement.
It's the main (but not only) reason the monk performs so badly in these tests. It also neuters the monk's stunning fist, because if you cannot hit you cannot stun a target.
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@Ashiel - If we open the can of worms to create magic items or add effects I have plenty of other slots available.
And by the same token I could get magic fang added permanently (for the love of all things holy or unholy do not start the dispel response until you finish reading...)
However once pandora's box is opened, the whole thing will derail again, so I will have to look elsewhere to spend my 25k. Open to suggestions.
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I do not think there is a monk player anywhere that does not loath the AoMF; I know I certainly do. It's too expensive and it does not provide enough enhancement.
It's the main (but not only) reason the monk performs so badly in these tests. It also neuters the monk's stunning fist, because if you cannot hit you cannot stun a target.
And if you fix this you can stun (as well as the other effects) and by this level you can do it as basically a ranged attack that leaves you next to whatever you are doing it to.
Which is a pretty bad ass move.
A tattoo that costs the same as an enhancement bonus but doesn't add damage and doesn't stack would do the trick, IMHO.
And if they were flatfooted...
But any suggestions for how to spend the 25k. I'm stuck on a smartphone away from my books here at work.
Herolabs does not like the druid's animal companion. Anyway here is what I got at level 13. I figured since we are at 13th I might as well stay there
I did take craft wonderous item but I only used it for the crafting of 2 AoMF's, and 1 belt of physical might.
The average AC for level 13 is about 28.
Greater Magic Fang is one hour per level so it is reason that I would cast it twice. One for me, and one for the animal companion.
That DPR number was for the animal and druid combined, but I will give the numbers separately and together since my game with my druid got cut off, and I was curious as to what I could have done.
After reading GMF again I just realized I only get the highest bonus if I put it on one natural attack. Otherwise it is a +1 only.
I am going with +3 on the claws.
Tiger Form gets me without speed or pounce or smite.
Yeah this druid can smite in wildshape form 1/day.
With +3 on the claws and power attack
+9 BAB, +6 normal strength, +4 str wildshape, +3 for claws, -1 size
2 claws +22(2d4+8 plus grab), bite +19(2d6+8/19–20 plus grab)
claws=31.5
Bite=13.86
DPR if the creature has no DR 44.36
Glabrezu's have DR 10. This knocks DPR down to about 14.86
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pounce
bite=16.17
claws+rake=71.4
87.57
If DR comes in it drops to 37.57
The inability to deal with DR is annoying.
If I bring speed(RAW) in then the DPR goes to about 105, but DR puts it at 45.
Now for the "other version of speed"
2 bites, 4 claws, and 2 rakes on a pounce.
107.1 from the 6 claws
32.34 from the bite
DPR=139.35
After DR=59.35. where is an align weapon when I need one. :)
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Smiting and pouncing time with the alternate speed.
2 bites, 4 claws, and 2 rakes on a pounce.
6 claws = 197.52
2 bites = 58.8
256.32 DPR
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PS: I am to lazy to do the animal companion, but I am guessing that it would do about 15 to points of DPR nonbuffed and at least 25 when buffed, putting the druid class as a whole right behind the barbarian.<--That is with the RAW version of speed.
PS2:Align weapon can not be used on natural attacks.
Druid partially built with 21320 gp left over
DRUID 1 CR 12
Male Human (Varisian) Druid 13
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +18
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DEFENSE
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AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 27. . (+11 armor, +4 shield, +1 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 120 (13d8+52)
Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +13
Immune poison
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +11/+6 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . +1 Scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+7/18-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +15/+10 (1d3+6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +15/+10 (1d3+6/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Sling +11/+6 (1d4+7/20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities A Thousand Faces (At will), Speak with Animals (16 rounds/day)
Druid Spells Known (CL 13, 15 melee touch, 10 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/22, Dex 12, Con 14/18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +9; CMB +15; CMD 28
Feats Augment Summoning, Craft Wondrous Item, Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Natural Spell, Planar Wild Shape, Power Attack -3/+6, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Superior Summoning
Skills Acrobatics -5, Climb +0, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Knowledge (Nature) +10, Knowledge (Planes) +5, Knowledge (Religion) +5, Perception +18, Ride -5, Spellcraft +8, Stealth -5, Survival +4, Swim +0
Languages Common, Druidic, Varisian
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Druid Domain: Animal, Resist Nature's Lure (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy +15 (Ex), Wild Shape (5/day) (Su), Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal), Wild Shape (Elemental Body IV: Small - Huge elemental), Wild Shape (Plant Shape III: Small - Huge plant creature), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Scimitar, +1 Sling, +2 Chain Shirt, +2 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate, +2 Wild Shield, Heavy Wooden; Other Gear Belt of Physical Might, STR & CON +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Ring of Protection, +2, Speed Amulet of Mighty Fists
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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A Thousand Faces (At will) Use Alter Self at will while in your normal form.
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Druid Domain: Animal Granted Powers: You can speak with and befriend animals with ease. In addition, you treat Knowledge (nature) as a class skill.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Planar Wild Shape May add the celestial or fiendish template to your animal form
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from Fey and effects using plants.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Speak with Animals (16 rounds/day) (Sp) You can use speak with animals as a spell-like ability.
Spell Focus: Conjuration Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Superior Summoning When summoning more than one creature, summon an extra one
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural suroundings.
Wild Empathy +15 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (5/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Elemental Body IV: Small - Huge elemental) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an elemental.
Wild Shape (Plant Shape III: Small - Huge plant creature) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become a plant creature.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
ANIMAL COMPANION CR 9
Male Tiger
NN Large Animal
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +2
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 24. . (+6 armor, +4 Dex, -1 size, +9 natural)
hp 72 (+27)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Evasion
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 40 ft.
Melee Bite (Tiger) +13 (1d8+7/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Tiger) +14 x2 (1d6+7/20/x2) and
. . Rake x2 (Tiger) +13 x2 (1d6+7/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +13/+7 (1d4+7/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Grab, Pounce
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 26, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +9; CMB +15 (+21 Grappling); CMD 29 (31 vs. Grapple 33 vs. Trip)
Feats Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack (Multiattack / Extra Attack), Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Focus: Claw
Skills Fly +2, Stealth +0 Modifiers +4 Stealth in Undergrowth
Languages
SQ Devotion +4 (Ex), Multiattack / Extra Attack
Combat Gear +2 Chain Shirt; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +3, Speed Amulet of Mighty Fists
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 Stealth in Undergrowth (Ex) You gain a bonus to Stealth Checks under the listed conditions.
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Grab (Large) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I would need animal growth for the animal companion to make it a threat so I will ignore it for now.
Animal Companion(he has magic items also.) AoMF(speed), cloak of resistance, and +2 chainshirt barding with the appropriate feat.
2 claws +16(2d4+8 plus grab), bite +15(2d6+8/19–20 plus grab)
edit:Natural attacks suck against monsters, but if used against players the "alternate" speed is an not bad at all.
I am sure a TWF'ing ranger or can out DPR a druid if the animal companion is not in play. if it has two speed weapons that both count. 1 full attack equals a dead or near dead PC most likely.
That will be the next test for the other thread. I almost forgot which thread I was in. :)
edit 2:Rake can't be used in grapple. That drops my smite damage down to 191. If I get a lucky grapple in though it would be painful since the smite damage would apply to the grapple checks and rakes. :)
@Ashiel - If we open the can of worms to create magic items or add effects I have plenty of other slots available.
Well I figured even if we all agreed not to create any new items with the item creation rules, the adding existing items together rules are there in black and white and would at least not leave your monk in the cold.
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@Ashiel - If we open the can of worms to create magic items or add effects I have plenty of other slots available.Well I figured even if we all agreed not to create any new items with the item creation rules, the adding existing items together rules are there in black and white and would at least not leave your monk in the cold.
If we did that I could buy goggles of see invisible, etc...but then we would go back and forth for hours and hours about custom made items and partial wands, derailing the thread into oblivion.
A compromise might be moving slots, but even that could get contentious.
@Ashiel - If we open the can of worms to create magic items or add effects I have plenty of other slots available.Well I figured even if we all agreed not to create any new items with the item creation rules, the adding existing items together rules are there in black and white and would at least not leave your monk in the cold.If we did that I could buy goggles of see invisible, etc...but then we would go back and forth for hours and hours about custom made items and partial wands, derailing the thread into oblivion.
A compromise might be moving slots, but even that could get contentious.
Eh, I wouldn't contest it. The rules are pretty clear that you could take a ring of protection and add feather falling right into it. Just assume the highest cost first, and then +50% on everything after.
But I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I'm just on the side lines watching again, and enjoying posts like Dabbler's.
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To be clear on my concern, I don't want to make a custom item and have someone say "You had to make a custom item to make it work!"
The item I was looking at was hand of glory, which would give my see invisibility once a day for 8k. Buying an item do the same would actually be cheaper, but strangely I don't see any in the book.
I could use the gold to up saves and AC, but I don't really need to. If permanency were on the table I could more cheaply increase unarmed strike, but then we would have a whole "dispel" derail.
I'll look around more when I get home, but the main holes in the build so far are see invisibility (which could be fixed fairly cheaply) and unarmed attack bonus (which can't be fixed fairly cheaply) although if I'm missing any other glaring holes, let me know.
It is easy to miss them starting at a level rather than building up.