Other tactic, and i hate myself for pointing out that but antagoniza could do the trick.
Eh, maybe I'm a little harsh, but I've told my players that anyone that takes Antagonize, authorizes it's use for all Enemies from that point on. I tell them this, because I promise each and every squishy will die to this feat.
I don't outlaw it, I simply tell them there will be major consequences for picking such obviously broken options.
i have two doubts if you allow me to continue this interrogation :P
1) how the ghaele full attack if it have to move 30 ft? it sees to me that it needs two rounds two full attack. teleporting and wait + move and wait + full attack.
2) i would say the Pc have the right to notice the ghaele afther it start to move, why not?
Not 30 ft. away, within 30 ft. The ghaele is actually appearing next to the *insert target here* and is going to full-attack on the next round.
That would be a DM call. In a wooden floor the azata would make some noise stepping at it. the same could hapen in a forest the azata coul step some dead branch or something. also the metal in the armor of the azata could make some noise, or the wizard could hear it breathing.
Why to deny a perception check? I would probably allow it.
Ever see those movies where some bad guy is chasing a girl, she knows he's behind her, but when she turns around, he's vanished. She looks around, then she turns around and there she is? That's kinda like what the Ghaele will be doing. But you won't know the Ghaele is there until it attacks with it's +2 Holy Sword. At that point, you turn around and... don't see anything as the Ghaele has Greater Invisibility and remains invisible even after attacking.
Like this video from Mr. Deeds.
[Edit] Btw, totally got a new NPC concept. He is a Master Butler and is 'sneaky, sneaky sir'.
Like this video from Mr. Deeds.
[Edit] Btw, totally got a new NPC concept. He is a Master Butler and is 'sneaky, sneaky sir'.
Good video. I also found this video of a high level psionic monk and some weird outsider type guy. See?
Also, Tels, did you see this post? The forum seemed to have eaten it for a bit, and then it came back (weird, right?, and the post numbers are off 'cause I tried to put it back, then it returned, so I deleted the new one, and, well, weirdness).
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Like this video from Mr. Deeds.
[Edit] Btw, totally got a new NPC concept. He is a Master Butler and is 'sneaky, sneaky sir'.
Good video. I also found this video of a high level psionic monk and some weird outsider type guy. See?
Also, Tels, did you see this post? The forum seemed to have eaten it for a bit, and then it came back (weird, right?, and the post numbers are off 'cause I tried to put it back, then it returned, so I deleted the new one, and, well, weirdness).
No I did not, but that's almost exactly how I see the fight going too. Monks-they have a lot of tricks. Ghaele-they're the Baskin Robins of Mid-level bosses: They can kill you in 32 different flavors.
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Yeah, I tried showing how a Party could fare against the Ghaele, but after awhile, I started thinking, "Holy crap! Unless the party is expecting encounters with extraplanar creatures, and prepares for it, the Ghaele is going to murder them. Murder them, take their loot, raise them and murder them again while taking their candy. Why is this a CR 13 creature?"
Haha, yeah. Honestly the more I think about it the nastier it seems too. Up until this thread, I had mostly just discussed it as a martial creature with Wraithstrike in another thread, where I pointed out that its equipment (it wields a +4 sword afterall) is rather irrelevant (I replaced all instances of its weapon with "masterwork sword" and still rocked faces).
This thread has caused me to learn more about them than I knew initially. Yay for me. :D
I can think of a few good tactics, including protection from chaos and good, and circle spells thereof. Dealing with the invisibility is problematic but do-able if the party prepares for invisible foes (but it can really choose its battles so easily). It can even ambush the party in the darnedest of places (it even has disguise self so it could even be invisible and just seem like something else, or just appear as a random passerby up until it smacks the piss out of you). Dealing with it means needing to deal with sight issues, incorporeality, teleportation, flight, melee power, and spellcasting. It could literally change its entire fighting style round to round. Like switched stances or something. :P
Ghaele: "Prepare to taste the dance of steel!" *whips the snot out of the cleric*
Barbarian: "Grr, I'm Grokkok and I'm going to smash you!"
Ghaele: *parries and dodges* "You can't kill an idea..." *turns incorporeal and drifts into the ground*
Barbarian: "Where'd she go!?"
Ghaele: *rises up out of the ground and blasts the barbarian with laser beams* "Giggle...over here big guy."
Barbarian: *leaps through the air and tries to grapple the Ghaele but passes through her* "Ooph...I prefer things with meat..."
Ranger: "Don't worry, I've got her!" *moves for his bow*
Ghaele: "Oh, you're not the brightest crayon are ya? Just like a little doggy. Sit boy."
Ranger: *fails save vs hold monster* "Ulp..."
Cleric: "It hurts...so much..." *lies at -2*
Ghaele: "Oh you big baby..." *floats into the ground*
Barbarian: "Grrr, where'd she go!?"
Ghaele: *stablizes the cleric from beneath the ground, 'cause she's a good sport.*
Ranger: *sweatdrops and fails another will save, thinking to himself: I should have invested in Iron Will.*
Barbarian: "Pfft, well that invisible little wench isn't going to take me by surprise!!" *picks up axe and readies an action to whack her when she appears, and activates come & get me*
Ghaele: *greater teleports about 275 feet away* "Over here BSB!" *blasts with light rays*
Barbarian: "Ouch, oh, my tender bits! I take it back, I take it back, don't come and get me!"
Ranger: *sweatdrops* C'mon ol' boy, shake yourself out of it. Where's a 12+ when you need it!?
Ghaele: *teleports next to Ranger.* Ho-ho, he'll never see this coming.
Ranger: *An 11!? Dice gods you spite me so!*
Ghaele: *coup de graces with the flat of her blade to deal nonlethal damage since the -4 to hit matters not in this case* "LIGHTS OUT, BIATCH!" *smashes him in the back of the head like she was playing cricket and clobbers him*
Ranger: "Oh save me Jeebus!" *falls down*
Barbarian: "AM MAD!" *ragelancepounce*
Ghaele: "AM DODGEY!" *50% evasion + AC Buffs* Swish goes the miss.
Ghaele: "Come and getcha!" *SMASH FACE*
....
Ghaele: "Now where's the wizard!?"
Wizard: *appears out of no where with a group of 12 6th level copies of himself.* "Alright me! FIRE!!!"
Wizard Simulacrum Swat Team: "Acid Arrow!"
Ghaele: *sizzles from 24d4 acid damage* "Ow, my hair!!" *turns incorporeal and sinks into the ground*
Wizard: "Pfft, that wasn't so hard! Hey guys, wake up! Man, what would you guys do without me?"
Wizard: *falls down* "Urk..."
Ghaele: *appears from behind the wizard, wiping her sword off.* "Didn't think it was over that easily did you? Now how about you fellas? Want some?"
Wizard Simulacrum Swat Team: "Umm...he did it!" *point at each other*
Ghaele: "That's what I thought."
Reposting Because the Board keeps eating it
My 2 cents-->Teleportation is not movement, and does not grant you a perception check.
A DC 20 checks lets you know something is in the room if you can make the check, but it would take a move action to do so.
As an aside how does the ghaele have infinite healing?
A monster with greater teleport and dispel magic is hard to pin down. I have used the combo before. What you have to do is have your players(casters) tag team the monster with specific spells, or have a player that can grapple it before it gets away, or otherwise restrain it.
I won't comment on the ghaele issue because a lot of things that would need to be known are left open.
Someone suggested using an AP.
A CR 15 encounter from two of the first Pathfinder AP's.
I only have access to the first 4. I don't have Jade Regent or Skulls and Shackles.
That gives us Council of Thieves and Kingmaker.
Potential Spoilers ahead.
CoT=Mother of Flies(Book 5) pages 51 and 52. This guy allows himself to be surrounded. I think at that between the fighter and the barbarian he falls hard and fast if he is using the books tactics. He can't really hit the monk, and he is struggling to hit the barbarian also. Both characters are out of the optimisation range for an AP, which goes back to my argument of you needing someone with a really good knowledge of the system to make the monk work. The monk takes longer to kill it which give it more chances to energy drain the monk. At best he gets 2 attempts a round against the barbarian, assuming he has haste up and running. I am guessing he lives for 3 rounds if he fights the barbarian. The DR and fasting healing help him a little.
Barbarian has a slight edge.
Kingmaker=War of the River Kings(book 5).
The monster still struggle to hit the monk, but the monk will provoke on the way in. The monster should win initiative also. The monk can hit the monster but takes 8d6 points of fire damage every time he hits it(no save).
The monsters needs an 18 to hit the monk. That is a 10 percent chance to hit, and with only one attack a round it will take 10 rounds.
The monk is dishing out (2d8+8) for an average of 17 points per hits, but is taking 28 points in return. The monster has a lot more hit points also.
The barbarian is more easily hit by the monster, and grappled. He is unlikely to break the grapple unless he rolls a nat 20. Since the barbarian is using a two-handed weapon he can't retaliate with it. He would have been forced to switch use his claws which do 1d8+18 when using Raging Brutality. That is about an average of of 22 or 23 hit points. Even after cutting his way out of the monster's stomach if it swallows him he has to deal with Vital Strike for 16d6+31, and another grab attempt. Now between the fighter and the barbarian they should be able to pull it off, but one one one the barbarian is fighting a losing battle since his weapon is basically made to be useless.
Now a twf'ing type or anyone using a weapon gets to make a fort save, and hope his weapons stay in tact since that 8d6 would go to the weapon. Looking at this monster again I wish I had used it when I ran KM. I either skipped it or used another monster.
The barbarian's HP allow it to take more damage. If he ignores the barbarian and does now swallow him, the the barbarian gets to use his sword. The monster dies in 4 round or less, and the barbarian is not likely to fail any fort saves that would destroy his weapon before the end of the round. Well with 30 points, and 10 hardness that means the barbarian has to fail twice unless the dice rolls are high. The likely result is the weapon never failing a save, and even so it shoudl survive.
Edge:Barbarian. Either way
I did not go into the detail that Ashiel does so if I oversimplified it feel free to make corrections. :)
edit:fixed spoiler tag
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I did not go into the detail that Ashiel does so if I oversimplified it feel free to make corrections. :)
The funny thing is I take the time to go into such details specifically so as to address most potential issues before they crop up, so as to avoid spending more posts on wild tangents. In some threads it seems to work, but in others I wonder if it's worth the effort. XD
A Monk (specially if tertori) with a ghost touch amulet of mighty fist coul grapple the ghaele.I did not know see invis was a personal only spell until it pointed out upthread by Tels. I left that much gold left so I could adapt to any encounters that I had to retreat from. I am somewhat at a loss of how to deal with it outside of UMD. I know that in a game I will have casters, but I try to be more independent so they are free to do what they have to do.Good catches on the see invisibility.
Glitterdust still goes out to 230 ft, and so is still viable. If the Ghaele closes and is within 30 ft he is detectable by a DC 20 perception check (which is anything but a 1 for both the monk and the barbarian) meaning anyone who has invisibility purge or glitterdust is using it and suddenly Ghaele with an entire party getting a round of attacks.
Closing on the wizard means coming into range of invisibility purge, and anything within 230 feet is in range of glitter dust.
I think you are being completely on the up and up Tels. Anything with invisibility is a challenge for the monk and barbarian we built because we both failed to adapt for it. Totally a mistake on my part in planning, and I bet wraith would say the same.
It particularly is bad for the monk in this case, as if he could see him he could actually be very useful.
In most games I run the caster has permanent see invisability by this level and always glitterdust. I can't remember the last time we had a well lit open space that large that involved an greater invisible creature with long range attacks.
Best bet? +1 Ghost Touch Net + Dimensional Anchor.
IIRC there is a way to get ghost touch temporarily, but I can't recall what it is. I guess that is another caveat. The other issue with the ghaele is that most PC's never expect to fight good creatures.
PC:There is the object we need for the quest.
<Ghaele appears>:Why are you here?
PC:<thinks "cool a good guy">. We are here to take that(object in question) because......
Ghaele:Sorry fellas I am sworn by sacred oath to never allow "said object" to leave the premises. Find another way to get it done. Nothing personal, but you have to leave now.
Caster types: thinking-->All I have is protection from evil, and holy word type spells if I have to fight this thing.
Party:Step aside. We don't want to hurt a good creature.
Ghaele:Fellas I know you mean well, but you don't want to do this.
Fight ensues.
The Ghaele is dangerous for the same reason dragons are. You have a respectable melee combatant stacks with caster levels, and that is before the buffs.
Maybe the CR does need to be bumped, but most GM's play into the party's hands, and that is how I think most CR's are based, unless the monster is designed for hit and run tactics. The Ghaele was not. It is just a side of affect of how certain abilities work together. If the ghaele was designed to hit and run the cleric levels would probably be removed or lowered, and its defenses, and damage potential would probably be down to compensate for it.
The Ghaele has Cure Light Wounds as an at-will Spell-like Ability. So it can always Teleport away, cast CLW until healed up (saving the Cleric Spells for emergencies, especially Heal), then it can return to the fight.
i have two doubts if you allow me to continue this interrogation :P
1) how the ghaele full attack if it have to move 30 ft? it sees to me that it needs two rounds two full attack. teleporting and wait + move and wait + full attack.
2) i would say the Pc have the right to notice the ghaele afther it start to move, why not?
Not 30 ft. away, within 30 ft. The ghaele is actually appearing next to the *insert target here* and is going to full-attack on the next round. As for trying to sense her once she begins moving, that's totally fine, but pinpointing her is going to be a pain in the butt (stealth +37 minimum).
I'm so glad people are getting usage out of this. ^.^Best bet? +1 Ghost Touch Net + Dimensional Anchor.
If it goes Incorporeal, it can't go through the ground while tangled with the net, nor can it remove the Net without returning to Humanoid form. It can't teleport away while under the effects of Dimensional Anchor. Go full on Nerd Rage and beat the piss out of it while it's trying to escape. This delays the Ghaele from escaping for a couple rounds, which gives time foe the Fighter and Rogue to get in position to beat on the Ghaele while the Wizard casts spells and the Cleric possibly buffs (party or self) debuffs or does other Clerical things.
The key is to restrict it's movement. If you can do that, you win, but if you can't you lose.
From the way Tels wrote that, it happens after the caster has cast see invis. Even assuming the best case scenario for the Ghaele, in which it can full attack, and kill the wizard, it's location is known. Now if the party has no other means of dealing with invisible creatures then I would almost think they deserve to die.
With all that aside the fact that see invis is personal is just convincing me to not play anything without caster levels. At level 13th I should be able to handle a level 2 spell if I need to.
From the way Tels wrote that, it happens after the caster has cast see invis. Even assuming the best case scenario for the Ghaele, in which it can full attack, and kill the wizard, it's location is known. Now if the party has no other means of dealing with invisible creatures then I would almost think they deserve to die.
With all that aside the fact that see invis is personal is just convincing me to not play anything without caster levels. At level 13th I should be able to handle a level 2 spell if I need to.
Actually, I posted a hypothetical response to that. Even in the case that Ciretose at least one person should have See Invisibility Permanent. Simply put, on the first round of combat, the Ghaele flees. While out of contact, it buffs, then turns invisible, then returns to the fight. If any of the caster's can track it's movement, it would Dispel Magic until it feels assured the caster can't see it anymore.
From what I understood it was invisible in the first round of combat. It dropped flamestrike and ran(flew away) 150 feet.
The cleric cast see invis. While it is 150 feet away it can probably see the caster looking at it
Now in round 2 if it wants to dispel the see invis then it has to come within 230 which most likely puts it in range of any of the cleric's spells. Both of them have a less than 50% chance of the dispelling anything if the cleric goes for a dispel. So likely the first dispel magic by the Ghaele will fail.
This allows the wizard to cast glitterdust on it. This allows everyone to get some offensive action in, probably not doing much damage.
By this time the party can look at their spells and see if they have anything that will help and choose to fight or flee, hopefully by magic. My 10th level caster does not have teleport, but he does have DD. The Ghaele does not have ranks in spellcraft so all it knows is that the party is no longer in sight.
If the party chooses to stay I would assume the thought they had decent spells ready for this fight.
If I am going by previous post though, and giving the ghaele the advantage of being outside, which is almost worth an additional ah-hoc CR.
Eh, that was slightly in error. I posted a number of tactics that the the Ghaele could employ depending on party actions. In later posts for sure, I mention it doesn't really matter what initiative the Ghaele gets as it's unlikely the Party will kill the Ghaele in one round.
For instance, one tactic, could be to hit the part with Flame Strike, then next round, Chain Lightning, then next round Prismatic Spray.
Or it could turn into it's Light Form, make itself Invisibile, move underground near the party, and hit them with Prismatic Spray, Chain Lightning, or spam Hold Monster until it works, at which point it can attempt to coup-de-grace with one of it's Light Rays.
The other thing to consider, if the Ghaele has Dispelled See Invisibility, True Seeing or the like, then the Ghaele can move up, and cast Wall of Force to separate as much as the party as possible, while positioning itself near the Wizard hoping for an AoO if he tries to cast.
It could also appear next to the martial character, and use Improved Trip on one attack, then Improved Disarm to send the weapon flying. The character must now stand up and retrieve it's weapon, or retrieve and stand up. Retrieving and standing up is the worst idea, as then the Ghaele gets an AoO and she can Disarm again. This time, on her turn, she can take the weapon, and teleport away.
My point is, I posted a lot of tactics for the Ghaele, but not all of them. I said in a previous post, the Ghaele is the Baskin Robbins of Mid-level bosses for a reason, they really do have a lot of tricks, attacks, and tactics they can use against nearly any enemy. They are probably one of the most versatile monsters I'ver ever really paid attention to.
They are versatile but their chance to succeed depends on the tactics used. I think they are better against parties made so that each person is really good at one thing that parties built so that any one person can cover various things.
I think those options sound better in theory than they work in application though. Hold monster registers as a hostile attack so the party will know something is up after the first attempt.
This is the type of monster though that you run from if you are not ready for it. Dragons, and certain puzzle monsters also fit here. Liches are a good example if you run into it, before you find the phylactery.
Puzzle monster=requires a certain method of destruction. Graveknights fit if nobody has made the knowledge check to know how to perma-kill them, unless you only need to get by them.
I think a point has been made for those that have said cleric spells are weak. That comment was in another thread though. :)
I know Hold Monster registers as an attack, I was merely pointing out that the Ghaele in her Light Form could hide in the ground, right at the surface, and cast Hold Monster until it works, then try and make a coup-de-grace with her Light Ray to finish the PC off.
Dragons, Liches, Demons, Devils etc, are all very well known monsters and lots of people that have played this game know how to take one out. I think less people are familiar with the celestial beings, like the Ghaele.
I could not find an answer to being invisible for martial types other than the dust of disappearance. That is 1800 a pop though, and the ghaele or any other creatures has to be within a 10 ft radius. Yeah my barbarian could afford it, but many of my characters spend almost all of their gold. The barbarian also has scent when raging so I could pin point the square within 15 feet, but due to action economy the ghaele might be hard to.
PS:I found the onyx dog, but it is over 7000 gp.
The hand of glory allows see invis 1/day. It has other uses, but it is still 8000 gp
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I had forgotten about the tactics you wrote. I was stuck on the ghaele teleporting and fighting the monk. Teleporting next to the wizard or cleric to prevent them from casting is a good idea.
The problem being if the wizard is near the rest of the party, particularly the barbarian who has pounce.
Remember, long ago this all started with the discussion of why the recommended Ghaele tactics were contrived to try and prove an argument that barbarians are better rather than do what the Ghaele would actually do.
The suggestion was the Ghaele would close into melee with the Barbarian was and is preposterous considering the Ghaele has a ranged attack that ignores DR.
If the wizard/cleric were isolated it would be a good tactic, but not so much if they are with the rest of the party who can then attack the Ghaele when it reveals itself.
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My 2 cents-->Teleportation is not movement, and does not grant you a perception check.
A DC 20 checks lets you know something is in the room if you can make the check, but it would take a move action to do so.
Do you require the players to take a move action perception check if something is hiding nearby as well? How will they know when they need to take a perception check if they aren't aware that something is trying to elude perception?
And once again the criteria isn't movement (which I still can't understand how one argues teleporting isn't moving...) but being "active"
If something is invisible within 30 feet, you can sense it with a DC 20 perception check. Period, that is RAW.
If you aren't allowing your players to detect things before they are ambushed unless every other movement is a perception check, stealth is incredible.
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i have two doubts if you allow me to continue this interrogation :P
1) how the ghaele full attack if it have to move 30 ft? it sees to me that it needs two rounds two full attack. teleporting and wait + move and wait + full attack.
2) i would say the Pc have the right to notice the ghaele afther it start to move, why not?
It doesn't need to move. When it Teleports, it Teleports to a location immediately adjacent to the Wizard. By that I mean, if the Ghaele nor the Wizard move at all, then the Ghaele is within melee range because they are both standing right next to one another.
Think about it like this, the Wizard is the letter W, the Barbarian is B, and the Ghaele is G. Each dot represents a Five-Foot Square.
This is the Set up for the moment.
...W.B............G
Then the Ghaele Teleports while Invisible.
..GW.B........
The Wizard nor the Barbarian know the Ghaele is next to the Wizard. On the Ghaele's next turn, she then uses her full attack to drop the Wizard.
And my issue with this is it assumes that although by rule you can detect if invisible things are active within 30 feet of you, having a 200 pound creature appear next to you would be undetectable.
The only reason I've see for this so far is "magic" as if teleportation includes an non-detection element.
One glitterdust or faerie fire at the wrong time, and you get an angry pouncing barbarian. How likely is that to happen? It depends on the players.
Out of curiosity this assumes the ghaele has an AC of 28, and was revealed at an opportune moment. Maybe it decided to attack the wizard, and the cleric cast purge invis...etc
Raging pounce haste 122. DPR
no haste--72.23
Yeah, that hasted 1st attack with no penalty to power attack is worth about 49 DPR.
I forgot to include the Ghaele's DR :(.
haste=82
no haste=32.
Maybe I should have went up to a +3 weapon. Never mind that is 2000 more GP than I have, even if I don't get the bow.
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One glitterdust or faerie fire at the wrong time, and you get an angry pouncing barbarian. How likely is that to happen? It depends on the players.
Out of curiosity this assumes the ghaele has an AC of 28, and was revealed at an opportune moment. Maybe it decided to attack the wizard, and the cleric cast purge invis...etc
Raging pounce haste 122. DPR
no haste--72.23
Yeah, that hasted 1st attack with no penalty to power attack is worth about 49 DPR.
I forgot to include the Ghaele's DR :(.
haste=82
no haste=32.Maybe I should have went up to a +3 weapon. Never mind that is 2000 more GP than I have, even if I don't get the bow.
My exact argument, more or less. And that is before you add anything from the rest of the party.
Why aren't we using dragons? Let's not avoid something that comes up frequently because of the potential derail. In fact, why aren't we using examples from modules or AP's.
I'm fine with anything published, because I am quite certain that it wasn't made with this in mind.
I did mention them briefly. I will work out a few dragon encounters.
I am late to this thread. Can somebody explain (or point out) what teleportation and stealth have to do with monks and the hate some peole have fot them?
Because Ciretose wanted specific builds to 'prove' monks are or are not a weak class compared to a barbarian. Ashiel raised the possibility of both level 13 builds fighting a Gheale, and how the gheale could teleport invisibly and get the drop on the entire party.
This happens every time we talk specific examples, by the way, which is why some people avoid them like the plague.
I'm not really sure why I'm posting. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I like monks and I think they work fine even though they can probably use a little bit of a boost. They aren't unplayable but they do take some work to play well. They can't be played simply going toe to toe with the enemy like a barbarian.I may have been unclear. It isn't a PvP situation. It is "Hey, we are the 4 iconics and we are recruiting, which one would be the best addition to our motley crew for adventures going forward!"
That then depends on which four iconics. If they already have a barbarian, that means the barbarian build is at a disadvantage for bringing something new to the party. On the other hand, if they already have a monk...you get the picture.
Hence why I started comparing them to see how effective each will be against straight monsters.
A Monk (specially if tertori) with a ghost touch amulet of mighty fist coul grapple the ghaele.
Yes, but he's not likely to have that option available. The +5 cap and cost of the AoMF means that if you get one you are almost certainly going to focus on just flat bonuses.
As for the gheale's CR, consider this:
A Gheale is chaotic good. If you are a good or neutral party, it will likely not attack you unless you attack it. It will usually warn or negotiate with you to tell you to go away, or warn against a course of action. As it can do this invisible and incorporeal it's not exactly an unsafe thing to do from the gheale's point of view.
Because gheale's are chaotic, they bend the rules when necessary. If you need **censored item** the gheale is guarding, it may require proof you that you need it for a greater purpose and can be trusted rather than just say 'no' which makes it easier to overcome without having to fight it.
Back on Subject
I looked at Tels' monk again, and realised that it has some flaws. Not that it is bad at what it does, but this monk is fighting to the barbarian's strengths.
I would have prosed this build:
Icandu (TEST MONK II) CR 12
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25. . (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 23
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +20/+15 (2d6+3/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10/12, Dex 20/26, Con 10/12, Int 14, Wis 16/20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling+23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
Traits Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device, Wisdom in the Flesh: Climb
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Local) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Perception +21, Ride +12, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ Abundant Step (Su), AC Bonus +8, Astrolabe, Earplugs, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Map Maker's Kit, Purity of Body (Ex), Ram, portable, Slow Fall 60' (Ex), Smoked Goggles, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham; Other Gear Acid Flask (3), Alchemist's Fire Flask (3), Alkali Flask (3), Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, Astrolabe, Bedroll, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bladeguard, Blanket, winter, Bracers of Armor, +4, Caltrops (2), Chalk, 1 piece, Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Grappling hook, Hammer, Handy Haversack (67 @ 132.98 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Heatstone, Holy Water Flask (3), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Liquid Ice (3), Map Maker's Kit, Mirror, small steel, Oil of Bless Weapon (2), Piton (10), Pole, 10-foot, Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Fly, Potion of Invisibility, Potion of Remove Curse, Potion of Resist Acid 10, Potion of Resist Fire 10, Powder (2), Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day) (3), Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.) (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Smoked Goggles, Spade or shovel, Spyglass, Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Twine (50'), Whetstone
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Map Maker's Kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked Goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh: Climb Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill
Icandu is not competing with Grokko, he's fighting things his way. He has better AC than Tels' dwarf-monk, but far worse hit points. He is better at hitting, but does much less damage. However, against the Oni Icandu actually has a chance of winning if he has fire resistance and possibly a means of flight. With his Crane style feats he loses 1 to hit, but gains +3 AC and the ability to negate one attack every round. His higher touch AC makes the Fiery ray much less effective, so he can use Spring Attack to hit, negate a counter-stroke, take an attack of opportunity to hit again, and then pull out. The Oni can fly, but Icandu is able to negate most of his attacks and whittle away at him. His missile option is not as good as Grokko's but it exists.
The big disadvantage Icandu has is that he simply cannot turn out the damage as the dwarf monk can. He could go for an Agile amulet of mighty fists, but he would lose out slightly on hitting in that case. He will get more hits, which make up the difference, but against foes with DR, he will have huge problems.
Perhaps the most important thing about Icandu is, he's a trapspringer and a scout. By bumping intelligence instead of strength or constitution, and by taking some traits that provide skills or skill-boosts, he's a clever trapspringer with great stealth skill. His Goggles take his perception for traps to +26, and his disable device is a whopping +32. Is he as a good as a rogue? No, but with his AC, Crane Style and saves he is a lot less squishy.
wraithstrike wrote:
A Monk (specially if tertori) with a ghost touch amulet of mighty fist coul grapple the ghaele.
I did not write that. Nicos did.
My exact argument, more or less. And that is before you add anything from the rest of the party.One glitterdust or faerie fire at the wrong time, and you get an angry pouncing barbarian. How likely is that to happen? It depends on the players.
Out of curiosity this assumes the ghaele has an AC of 28, and was revealed at an opportune moment. Maybe it decided to attack the wizard, and the cleric cast purge invis...etc
Raging pounce haste 122. DPR
no haste--72.23
Yeah, that hasted 1st attack with no penalty to power attack is worth about 49 DPR.
I forgot to include the Ghaele's DR :(.
haste=82
no haste=32.Maybe I should have went up to a +3 weapon. Never mind that is 2000 more GP than I have, even if I don't get the bow.
The ghaele would still survive though, unless the party had an archer.
It does show however that if one party member can reveal the ghaele there is a possibility that it can be trapped.
The ghaele only has 136 hp. We never did specify the roles of the other party members, but the ghaele can be one or two rounded. Now I will admit that is not likely however for most groups. I do think a 2nd engagement is much easier to deal with if the Ghaele flees, even long enough to lick its wounds. The party will think the creature has left, and continue on their way or do X.
X=whatever the ghaele does not want them to do.
If the ghaele is fighting inside then it can't move 150 feet.
I also just noticed it takes a standard action to change into "light" form
The ghaele is not attacking and flying off.
edit:It is not attacking in solid form and flying off anyway.
I did not write that. Nicos did.wraithstrike wrote:
A Monk (specially if tertori) with a ghost touch amulet of mighty fist coul grapple the ghaele.
My bad!
Nice build. Good to see variety
Thank you. This monk can make Spring Attack work, and can hit better than the dwarf monk although not as hard. That said, he's weak as a kitten for a melee fighter, can't do significant damage, and if an enemy lands a blow he's got to use that speed to retreat and heal. He's a classic MAD build where half the attributes are sacrificed to get one up to a decent level.
My bad!I did not write that. Nicos did.wraithstrike wrote:
A Monk (specially if tertori) with a ghost touch amulet of mighty fist coul grapple the ghaele.
It's ok. I do agree that might work though, but the likely hood of someone having that specific item is low. Well I have never seen anyone get ghost touch AoMF anyway.
Actually a net +7, but he's losing on hits - but in this case it's worth it, I agree. Sadly I don't have the update for that particular feature in my HeroLab. More to the point, although it improves damage in the long run it reduces the ability to get past DR because you lose out on +5 enhancement.
That's the other big problem with the AoMF: you can have enhancement OR properties, but unlike a magic weapon you don't get both. You end up behind at each stage of gaining the ability to bypass DR - by one step because of cost, and by another step because you need that +7.
Even dishing out a flurry of blows at +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 for 2d6+10 is not going to come even close to matching the barbarian's DPR outlet, although it does up the DPR somewhat.
One question: the party is 13th level and NO ONE has a frigging ghost touch weapon? I know that is probably the most common enhancement I put on a weapon for my characters.
Master Arminas
First things first: Dabbler, that wasn't my Monk, that was Ciretose's Monk. I reposted the stats for the Monk so Lord Wraithstrike's Barbarian and the Monk could be near each other for quicker access.
Second, Master Arminas: it may have been lost in the many posts I made yesterday, but I did point out the Ghost Touch weapon issue a few times. Also, keep in mind, I'm trying very, very hard to only use builds that were posted, exactly as they are. Neither the Barbarian, nor the Monk posted has a Ghost Touch weapon, therefore, they cannot be counted on to be used in against the Ghaele or in any other fight. The one time I deviated, was when choosing possible options for a Wizard and Cleric. Here we end up in murky waters because we don't have a 'standard spell list' for either.
Fortunately, Lord Wraithstrike happened to post his own Wizard list of prepared spells and I pulled from that. Glitterdust is an extremely common spell, so I don't feel bad using it, having both True Seeing and See Invisibility prepared is a lot less likely. Most people assume True Seeing will be enough, but True Seeing does not have the same range that See Invisibility does as See Invisibility is only limited by what you can actually see. Technically, if one were using some deep-space telescope with See Invisibility on, then they could see invisible creatures through the deep-space telescope.
The biggest problem I have with builds, is they only work if they're been progressively built into the a campaign. By that, I mean, if you GM has a habit of running humanoid campaigns, building a grapple/trip/disarm build is a very good character. But if you've never played with a GM before, and bring such a build that focuses on one of those maneuvers, only to find out he loves dragons and giants, you're not going to be very happy with such a character.
Ciretose wanted a build off, and then to compare the builds on how useful they were in a given situation. That more-or-less tosses them into fights of a certain CR range of enemies. The Ghaele was one such monster, and neither the Barbarian, nor the Monk fared particularly well. The debate devolved into a discussion on tactics, and then from there, whether one can be stealthed after teleporting while invisible.
As for whether or not the Iconics happen to have the respective class included, I think it would be safe to say we'll shuffle those classes around to make room. For now, we've used Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, Fighter, as the builds posted have been Barbarian or Monk, but if one wanted to try to bring a Fighter, we could use Cleric Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian and Fighter vs Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian, and Monk.
We're mainly looking at which class would be more useful at a given level, currently 13. Is it Monk? Or is it one of the other classes? So far we've only had the opportunity to compare a Barbarian. I get the feeling the other regulars of this thread already know which classes would be chosen over the Monk (likely, any class), but Ciretose is insisting that the Monk is as a good, or better, than any average PC class of the same level.
This is very hard claim to back up, as everyone who is actually posting in this thread, typically has high levels of system mastery. Therefore, any build we post, are going to reflect out levels of mastery, instead of an average build.
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Also, Dabbler, I notice your Monk is wearing Smoked Goggles and has Goggles of Minute Seeing. Are either of them equipped at the moment? I ask, because the Smoked Goggles give -4 to Perception, while the Goggles of Minute Seeing give +5 for locks and traps and you can only wear one or the other. Remember, if you're wearing the Smoked Goggles, all enemies have %20 concealement.
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As somewhat of a compromise, I think the original idea was to test the Monk vs other classes at different levels. I believe they were 7th and 13th, though I'm not certain (and won't be going back to check, I am lazy you know!) but I feel fairly good about that claim. 13th level creatures typically have a lot of options to use, and so to PCs, as the Ghele debate made more than clear. Perhaps if we scaled back some, we could get better results?
First things first: Dabbler, that wasn't my Monk, that was Ciretose's Monk. I reposted the stats for the Monk so Lord Wraithstrike's Barbarian and the Monk could be near each other for quicker access.
My bad, it was in your post and I didn't look too closely at the preceding text when I went back there to reference it.
Also, Dabbler, I notice your Monk is wearing Smoked Goggles and has Goggles of Minute Seeing. Are either of them equipped at the moment? I ask, because the Smoked Goggles give -4 to Perception, while the Goggles of Minute Seeing give +5 for locks and traps and you can only wear one or the other. Remember, if you're wearing the Smoked Goggles, all enemies have %20 concealement.
The smoked goggles are in the backpack for use when needed. With a Handy Haversack you can carry as much as you want, really.
As to ghost touch weapons, ghost touch on the AoMF would be prohibitively expensive. I'd have to drop Agile, from the post above, which would nearly half damage output. As incorporeal halves damage anyway, this gains a little against incorporeal creatures for the price of losing a lot against everything else. A ghost touch weapon would cost a lot and add nothing to the monk's damage output vs incorporeal things.
True, but couldn't you also grapple the Ghaele with a ghost-touch amulet of mighty fists? Just wondering.
MA
True, but couldn't you also grapple the Ghaele with a ghost-touch amulet of mighty fists? Just wondering.
MA
By that same logic, if I have a Brilliant Energy Amulet of Mighty Fist, I can walk through all nonliving objects.
[Edit] This would also mean, simply putting it on kills you as you would begin sinking into the ground.
Yes, as an AoMF doesn't add to grappling (although I grant you I think it should) then it wouldn't enable you grapple a gheale. You could punch it, though.
I just wanted to point out that the CRs for the characters presented are in error. They all have PC wealth which is +1 CR. A PC-classed character with PC-wealth is CR = level.
True, but couldn't you also grapple the Ghaele with a ghost-touch amulet of mighty fists? Just wondering.
MA
By that same logic, if I have a Brilliant Energy Amulet of Mighty Fist, I can walk through all nonliving objects.
[Edit] This would also mean, simply putting it on kills you as you would begin sinking into the ground.
Ah, read the description of the amulet of mighty fists again. It provides an enhancement bonus on unarmed attacks (not unarmed strikes) and natural weapons. Grapple is an unarmed attack. Therefore, if you have an ghost touch amulet of mighty fists, you should be able to grapple incorporeal creatures. Right?
The brilliant energy property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. For a monk, unarmed strike (not unarmed attack) is his melee weapon, so it would not render his entire body to ignore nonliving material. Only his unarmed strikes when used against a target creature. Grapple is not, to the best of my knowledge, a melee weapon; so you could not apply the property for that purpose. That being said, I remove brilliant energy from the game, specifically because of all the corner cases it presents and because I just don't care for the flavor. But that is only for my games.
EDIT: And, this is only my opinion, it would be one stupid monk to spend money on a brilliant energy amulet of mighty fists in the first place. They can't affect objects, constructs, or undead, in exchange for being able to bypass armor. You can't turn off the property, so you have to take off and put on the amulet depending on your opponents, or if you want to shatter a lock with your kick. No, it is simply not worth it for a monk in my own opinion.
Master Arminas
I just wanted to point out that the CRs for the characters presented are in error. They all have PC wealth which is +1 CR. A PC-classed character with PC-wealth is CR = level.
Herolab always does that. I just ignore it. It does not count wealth, just character levels.
Ah, read the description of the amulet of mighty fists again. It provides an enhancement bonus on unarmed attacks (not unarmed strikes) and natural weapons. Grapple is an unarmed attack. Therefore, if you have an ghost touch amulet of mighty fists, you should be able to grapple incorporeal creatures. Right?
The brilliant energy property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. For a monk, unarmed strike (not unarmed attack) is his melee weapon, so it would not render his entire body to ignore nonliving material. Only his unarmed strikes when used against a target creature. Grapple is not, to the best of my knowledge, a melee weapon; so you could not apply the property for that purpose. That being said, I remove brilliant energy from the game, specifically because of all the corner cases it presents and because I just don't care for the flavor. But that is only for my games.
Master Arminas
No, sadly grappling is not an unarmed attack. Unarmed attacks are defined in the combat chapter and include unarmed strikes and natural attacks. No where does it say grapples are unarmed attacks. They are just a combat maneuver like any other.
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
Multiple Creatures: Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.
Grapple is its own weapon. It it not an unarmed attack.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
EDIT: And, this is only my opinion, it would be one stupid monk to spend money on a brilliant energy amulet of mighty fists in the first place. They can't affect objects, constructs, or undead, in exchange for being able to bypass armor. You can't turn off the property, so you have to take off and put on the amulet depending on your opponents, or if you want to shatter a lock with your kick. No, it is simply not worth it for a monk in my own opinion.
Master Arminas
Indeed. Much more amusing to get throwing on the AoMF, and then returning. >:)
If grapple is NOT an unarmed attack, then how the heck do you grapple? To grapple means to grab hold of (usually with hands) and restrain. Is this something else Pathfinder has changed? Because I seem to remember grapples were unarmed attacks in 3.5 and earlier versions of D&D.
NOTE: Grapple even says that you take a penalty unless you have two free hands. That tells me that it should be an unarmed attack!
Master Arminas
I just wanted to point out that the CRs for the characters presented are in error. They all have PC wealth which is +1 CR. A PC-classed character with PC-wealth is CR = level.Herolab always does that. I just ignore it. It does not count wealth, just character levels.
Well someone earlier complained about being matched up with a creature that was a whole CR higher than they were. But they weren't a CR higher at all.
If grapple is NOT an unarmed attack, then how the heck do you grapple? To grapple means to grab hold of (usually with hands) and restrain. Is this something else Pathfinder has changed? Because I seem to remember grapples were unarmed attacks in 3.5 and earlier versions of D&D.
Master Arminas
Because it is not considered an attack. When you make an unarmed attack, you are making an attack. As in you roll an attack roll. Combat maneuvers are their own thing, and you can preform grapples with certain weapons as well (mancatcher springs to mind).
Not everything gray is an elephant.
Well someone earlier complained about being matched up with a creature that was a whole CR higher than they were. But they weren't a CR higher at all.I just wanted to point out that the CRs for the characters presented are in error. They all have PC wealth which is +1 CR. A PC-classed character with PC-wealth is CR = level.Herolab always does that. I just ignore it. It does not count wealth, just character levels.
I did not see that or I would have pointed it out. The average encounter is APL=party level anyway.
It is also important to see how a character performs in boss fights so matching it up to some extent against higher level monsters makes perfect sense. If all a character can do is beat up on mooks....... :)