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There is no check in the rules that says you get to suddenly be aware that someone teleported nearby. You're making stuff up. Isn't that what you always accuse me of doing, Ciretose?
I just quoted it above actually.
If you are able to be aware of things within 30 feet, if something suddenly appears within 30 feet...
Also, even if every party member could make the DC 20 Perception check to notice an Invisibile person, they can't target the Ghaele until someone points it out. They will know something is invisible, but not know where it is. That is why the Wizard has a readied action. So he can cast Glitterdust and reveal the Ghaele, allowing the party to attack without a miss chance.I disagree.
Ghaele's turn, teleports in. At this moment the players get a perception check because a medium sized object just suddenly appeared with 30 feet of them, presumably at minimum displacing air if in physical form, which it would need to be to attack. If not, you are taking another standard action next round to get into physical form, which is another round to be detected...
So the Ghaele is there on it's turn. It also has a move action, but presumably it teleported where it wanted so it isn't moving. End of turn.
Next player who is within 30 feet gets a check. Both the barb and monk have perception over 20, so on anything but a one they can say as a free action "Hey, I think there is something invisible over there." and hold.
Wizard and cleric can do something about that on their turn, which it when the other players stop holding and beat the hell out of the Ghaele for a round until it tries to teleport away (which could provoke).
Now in my experience when you are dealing with outsiders, you probably know you are dealing with outsiders fairly early on and your cleric is adapting, but that is Schrodinger. What isn't Schrodinger is the tried and true "Hold until you make it not invisible, then hit it lots" strategy.
The Ghaele loses it's incorporeal and ability to fly when physical, and can't melee or cast spells when in light form. It takes a standard action to go back and forth, so this is a major hindering factor that makes it appropriate for CR 13.
If the party detects it popping in to hit the wizard, odds are good the Barbarian will be able to get a pounce which will be devastating. On...
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
No auto detect. Nothing in Teleport says it 'displaces air' so there is no displacement taking place.
Invisible creature is.................Perception DC Modifier
In combat or speaking.............–20
Moving at half speed................–5
Moving at full speed.................–10
Running or charging.................–20
Not moving...........................+20
Using Stealth............................Stealth check +20
Some distance away.................+1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door).........+5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall)..+15
The Ghaele 'simply appears' not moving, just observing. I wouldn't consider that creating any stimulus. If anything, I'd consider it being an attempt to hide, and allow it to make a stealth check (which it could as it is invisible). If it makes a stealth check, then the Ghaele has a minimum DC of either 38 or 58 depending on if you count Teleporting as movement (Rolled 1 + 17 + 20 or 40 from Invisibility).
Also, the Ghaele isn't going to teleport in it's Light Form. It would Teleport elsewhere, change back, then teleport back to battle. If the Wizard isn't where he last saw it, he'd Teleport to the Wizard on his turn. At which point the Wizard has a chance to ready a spell and the others can attempt Perception checks to find the Ghaele when it teleports again. If they attempt a Perception check, that uses up a move action on their turn. So they need to wait for the Wizard or Cleric to make the Ghaele visible to attack it on a charge or full-attack.
[Edit] Totally got Ninja'd on the stealth.
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How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?
The part you didn't bold says
"Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
The rule is "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack."
We were being so civil for so long...
That DC is also assuming that the Ghaele isn't allowed to stealth when it comes into existence.
Further more you said "How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?" Under that heading I would like to pose this question, and answer it. "How does one move from on point to another without ever moving through the spaces in between?" Answer= It's Magic.
Unless the spell specifically states that something takes place, then we as players and GM's assumes that they do not. Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor.
What's the difference you ask? The spell doesn't state that it catches anything on fire.
[Edit: Also I am loath to mention this at all but... I haven't noticed you being very civil through out this entire discussion. *points back three pages to where you claimed that other people were talking without any real knowledge of the game*]
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How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?
The part you didn't bold says
"Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
The rule is "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack."
We were being so civil for so long...
Still being civil...
How is it not displacing? I dunno, magic? (Sorry, you walked into that one!)
Considering the fact it's magic, not physics, then I would say that there is no stimulus, therefore, no auto-check for detecting Invisible creatures.
I don't consider Teleporting and standing still being an 'active invisible creature' as you do. This may be a 'subject to GM' thing, which can't be settled by the two of us. If anything, I'd suggest asking James Jacobs. Many people aren't happy with that answer, as he isn't 'the rules guy' but I'm more than willing to accept his ruling/interpretation as he is a lot more experienced with this game than I am. I don't know how you feel about asking him, but I'm game.
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You can't teleport into solid object, presumably because they take up space.
If you teleported into water, would you displace the water?
And actually, there are rules for things catching fire depending on the spell.
"Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash."
If a player walked within 30 feet of an invisible creature, would you give them the check?
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How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?
The part you didn't bold says
"Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
The rule is "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack."
We were being so civil for so long...
Still being civil...
How is it not displacing? I dunno, magic? (Sorry, you walked into that one!)
Considering the fact it's magic, not physics, then I would say that there is no stimulus, therefore, no auto-check for detecting Invisible creatures.
I don't consider Teleporting and standing still being an 'active invisible creature' as you do. This may be a 'subject to GM' thing, which can't be settled by the two of us. If anything, I'd suggest asking James Jacobs. Many people aren't happy with that answer, as he isn't 'the rules guy' but I'm more than willing to accept his ruling/interpretation as he is a lot more experienced with this game than I am. I don't know how you feel about asking him, but I'm game.
FAQ is always a reasonable answer :)
That DC is also assuming that the Ghaele isn't allowed to stealth when it comes into existence.
Further more you said "How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?" Under that heading I would like to pose this question, and answer it. "How does one move from on point to another without ever moving through the spaces in between?" Answer= It's Magic.
Unless the spell specifically states that something takes place, then we as players and GM's assumes that they do not. Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor.
What's the difference you ask? The spell doesn't state that it catches anything on fire.
Damn, Ninja'd again!
Also, on the subject of Fireball it says: The explosion creates almost no pressure.
It creates a 40 ft diameter explosion of fire, but almost no pressure. Physically, this is absolutely not possible. Magically, it is.
If a player walked within 30 feet of an invisible creature, would you give them the check?
Actually, no. If a character is walking down the path, and an Invisible creature is standing on the path (but out of the way), the creature is not active, therefore, no auto-check is allowed unless the creature is specifically looking for an Invisible creature.
Now, if the creature was standing in mud, water, fairly lengthy grass (displacing it), then yes, yes I would give them a check. But the creature needs to be displacing something noticeable to have a chance of even getting the check.
If the Invisible creature and the PC were both walking down the path, then yes, there would be a check as the Invisible creature is active.
[Edit] Eh, FAQs almost never get answered. We'd need to go to the Rules forum and ask a very specific set of questions, get a bunch of people to click the FAQ button, and even then, who knows how long it would take to answer the FAQ. JJ is a much quicker option.
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That DC is also assuming that the Ghaele isn't allowed to stealth when it comes into existence.
Further more you said "How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?" Under that heading I would like to pose this question, and answer it. "How does one move from on point to another without ever moving through the spaces in between?" Answer= It's Magic.
Unless the spell specifically states that something takes place, then we as players and GM's assumes that they do not. Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor.
What's the difference you ask? The spell doesn't state that it catches anything on fire.
Damn, Ninja'd again!
Also, on the subject of Fireball it says: The explosion creates almost no pressure.
It creates a 40 ft diameter explosion of fire, but almost no pressure. Physically, this is absolutely not possible. Magically, it is.
It also dissipates immediately, which is why it doesn't ignite anything.
However teleport actual moves an object into a space where no object existed previously.
That DC is also assuming that the Ghaele isn't allowed to stealth when it comes into existence.
Further more you said "How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?" Under that heading I would like to pose this question, and answer it. "How does one move from on point to another without ever moving through the spaces in between?" Answer= It's Magic.
Unless the spell specifically states that something takes place, then we as players and GM's assumes that they do not. Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor.
What's the difference you ask? The spell doesn't state that it catches anything on fire.
Damn, Ninja'd again!
Also, on the subject of Fireball it says: The explosion creates almost no pressure.
It creates a 40 ft diameter explosion of fire, but almost no pressure. Physically, this is absolutely not possible. Magically, it is.
What's exceptionally crazy is that when it's used by a 10th level wizard, those 40 ft. diameter explosions not only produce almost no pressure, but are also hot enough to burn a 40 ft. hole in a 1 inch thick wooden wall instantaneously. No sitting around and waiting for it to burn. We're talking less than 3 seconds to cast the spell, and not even a fourth second for the wall to be vaporized.
To see something that hot just pop, leave, and produce little to no pressure would be one of those moments where your mouth hangs agap and you just go "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu....??"
This isn't about giving the players a check. *However they of course do get one, as soon as there is some stimulus to make a check from* This really comes down to what that check DC would be and why.
And the simple fact of the matter is, teleporting, via the rules that we have, does not say that it displaces air, does not indicate that it does anything to rouse the players suspicions at all except where other rules indicate there would be stimulus. (IE: Sight, Sound) Given no sight they can't make a check based on sight, given that the Ghaele isn't speaking or moving you can't make a check based on sound. So until it attacks or moves to attack, you are SOL.
That DC is also assuming that the Ghaele isn't allowed to stealth when it comes into existence.
Further more you said "How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?" Under that heading I would like to pose this question, and answer it. "How does one move from on point to another without ever moving through the spaces in between?" Answer= It's Magic.
Unless the spell specifically states that something takes place, then we as players and GM's assumes that they do not. Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor.
What's the difference you ask? The spell doesn't state that it catches anything on fire.
Damn, Ninja'd again!
Also, on the subject of Fireball it says: The explosion creates almost no pressure.
It creates a 40 ft diameter explosion of fire, but almost no pressure. Physically, this is absolutely not possible. Magically, it is.
It also dissipates immediately, which is why it doesn't ignite anything.
However teleport actual moves an object into a space where no object existed previously.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.
Think about this: the melting point of Gold (which is the highest of the metals) is 1,064° C (1,948° F). It is capable of instantly melting Gold (duration Instantaneous). It's been awhile since science class in Highschool, but I believe in order for the Gold to be melted so quickly requires a temperature something like 5 times higher than the actual melting point of the material.
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This isn't about giving the players a check. *However they of course do get one, as soon as there is some stimulus to make a check from* This really comes down to what that check DC would be and why.
And the simple fact of the matter is, teleporting, via the rules that we have, does not say that it displaces air, does not indicate that it does anything to rouse the players suspicions at all except where other rules indicate there would be stimulus. (IE: Sight, Sound) Given no sight they can't make a check based on sight, given that the Ghaele isn't speaking or moving. So until it attacks or moves to attack, you are SOL.
I disagree that because it doesn't specifically say it displaces air that means it doesn't. As Sean K Reynolds said in another thread "The game also doesn't say that dead characters can't take actions..."
You are inserting an object into a space the object will now occupy. Whatever was in that space previously will be displaced, be it water or air.
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That DC is also assuming that the Ghaele isn't allowed to stealth when it comes into existence.
Further more you said "How do you insert an object into an area without displacing things?" Under that heading I would like to pose this question, and answer it. "How does one move from on point to another without ever moving through the spaces in between?" Answer= It's Magic.
Unless the spell specifically states that something takes place, then we as players and GM's assumes that they do not. Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor.
What's the difference you ask? The spell doesn't state that it catches anything on fire.
Damn, Ninja'd again!
Also, on the subject of Fireball it says: The explosion creates almost no pressure.
It creates a 40 ft diameter explosion of fire, but almost no pressure. Physically, this is absolutely not possible. Magically, it is.
It also dissipates immediately, which is why it doesn't ignite anything.
However teleport actual moves an object into a space where no object existed previously.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.Think about this: the melting point of Gold (which is the highest of the metals) is 1,064° C (1,948° F). It is capable of instantly melting Gold (duration Instantaneous). It's been awhile since science class in Highschool, but I believe in order for the Gold to be melted so quickly requires a temperature something like 5 times higher than the actual melting point of the material.
So fireball would actual ignite things, so the original point of "Like fireball, you would rightly think that if you magically made a bunch of fire that things in the area would catch fire, however that is not the case for all spells with the fire descriptor." is either moot, or the fact that the environmental rules govern what does and does not start fires show that just because it's "magic" doesn't mean it has no effect of physical surroundings.
Also, going to bed soon.
I think he means that other fire spells that deal equal or greater fire damage do not actually ignite things. Hence the point that magic is magic.
EDIT: Also, I think it's pushing it pretty far to try and suggest that the Dead condition being poorly defined means that you get to declare what magic does and does not do.
EDIT 2: I gotta agree with Tels and Arcane Knowledge on this one. Teleporting makes no mention of giving any signs or signals of its occurrence. It simply places something where it wasn't. By all physical accounts, there is no way to actually do this physically. To take one thing from one side of the universe and place it on the other side of the universe, without warping the entire universe and twisting it around. Now it seems pretty obvious that these mages aren't actually folding the universe over onto itself and stepping into the next layer.
Now the action the Ghaele took is over the moment the spell is cast. The ghaele spends an action to cast teleport. Teleport then occurs, moving the ghaele. The actual teleporting is not the ghaele doing anything. The ghaele appears in an area, unseen, unheard, and simply stands still (+57 stealth modifier for the Ghaele) and waits.
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I think he means that other fire spells that deal equal or greater fire damage do not actually ignite things. Hence the point that magic is magic.
EDIT: Also, I think it's pushing it pretty far to try and suggest that the Dead condition being poorly defined means that you get to declare what magic does and does not do.
Let us not try and reframe this. I am not the one saying that magic defies the laws of physics by not displacing an object.
I am saying that if you teleported into water, it would raise the water level, because of water displacement. Similarly air has to go somewhere, how you describe that is GM discretion.
You are arguing it wouldn't, because "magic".
I think he means that other fire spells that deal equal or greater fire damage do not actually ignite things. Hence the point that magic is magic.
EDIT: Also, I think it's pushing it pretty far to try and suggest that the Dead condition being poorly defined means that you get to declare what magic does and does not do.Let us not try and reframe this. I am not the one saying that magic defies the laws of physics by not displacing an object.
I am saying that if you teleported into water, it would raise the water level, because of water displacement. Similarly air has to go somewhere, how you describe that is GM discretion.
You are arguing it wouldn't, because "magic".
I'm actually arguing that the creature is not being active. See my last edit.
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I'm actually arguing that the creature is not being active. See my last edit.I think he means that other fire spells that deal equal or greater fire damage do not actually ignite things. Hence the point that magic is magic.
EDIT: Also, I think it's pushing it pretty far to try and suggest that the Dead condition being poorly defined means that you get to declare what magic does and does not do.Let us not try and reframe this. I am not the one saying that magic defies the laws of physics by not displacing an object.
I am saying that if you teleported into water, it would raise the water level, because of water displacement. Similarly air has to go somewhere, how you describe that is GM discretion.
You are arguing it wouldn't, because "magic".
And I disagree, and would argue that moving into a square by any means is by definition, active.
Actually I at least am not arguing that it displaces no air. I am arguing the point that, no matter if the spell does or doesn't displace air, it doesn't make enough noise to notice when displacing/not displacing air, because the spell doesn't say so.
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Actually I at least am not arguing that it displaces no air. I am arguing the point that, no matter if the spell does or doesn't displace air, it doesn't make enough noise to notice when displacing/not displacing air, because the spell doesn't say so.
Someone moving at all in an area would be enough to trigger a check, but some someone appearing completely out of nothingness and moving into the same area wouldn't?
I agree that as soon as they arrive they can then use the move action to make a stealth check, but when you move into an area where you can be detected, you trigger the check prior to the stealth.
If they were not invisible, you would agree if someone appeared within 30 feet of a character, they would get a perception check would occur prior to the person being able to use the move action to then activate stealth, correct?
Actually I at least am not arguing that it displaces no air. I am arguing the point that, no matter if the spell does or doesn't displace air, it doesn't make enough noise to notice when displacing/not displacing air, because the spell doesn't say so.
Someone moving at all in an area would be enough to trigger a check, but some someone appearing completely out of nothingness and moving into the same area wouldn't?
I agree that as soon as they arrive they can then use the move action to make a stealth check, but when you move into an area where you can be detected, you trigger the check prior to the stealth.
If they were not invisible, you would agree if someone appeared within 30 feet of a character, they would get a perception check would occur prior to the person being able to use the move action to then activate stealth, correct?
Someone movie through an area, makes noise, vie rustling grass, moving bushes, scuffing dirt, etc. Someone simply appear, does not make noise, nor are they visible to the eye.
Even if did displace air, the amount of air displaced is so negligible, you wouldn't actually notice it, barring some sort of altered senses, maybe, Blind-Fight?
If a character had Blind-Fight, I would certainly give them a check as they've actually trained their senses to notice things they otherwise wouldn't. Someone without Blind-Fight, I wouldn't give the check to.
If you agree that the act of teleporting is counted as moving, that you can make a stealth check as a part of moving, and that greater teleport allows you to teleport in a space of your choosing, then there should be no debate.
According to all the rules just stated your characters, even if they could make a check for an invisible character teleporting into an area, which in my opinion isn't appropriate via the rules, they would be forced to make at least a 38 perception to hope to detect the Ghaele at all.
Sorry the facts are just against the scenario that you suggest.
Someone moving at all in an area would be enough to trigger a check, but some someone appearing completely out of nothingness and moving into the same area wouldn't?Actually I at least am not arguing that it displaces no air. I am arguing the point that, no matter if the spell does or doesn't displace air, it doesn't make enough noise to notice when displacing/not displacing air, because the spell doesn't say so.
Appearing completely out of nothingness vs moving. Yeah, I see a difference there.
I agree that as soon as they arrive they can then use the move action to make a stealth check, but when you move into an area where you can be detected, you trigger the check prior to the stealth.
If they were not invisible, you would agree if someone appeared within 30 feet of a character, they would get a perception check would occur prior to the person being able to use the move action to then activate stealth, correct?
If they weren't invisible, then there would be no Perception check at all, because they wouldn't be invisible to have the concealment to even make the Stealth check. And again, they didn't move into an area. They appeared in an area. From nothingness.
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If they weren't invisible, then there would be no Perception check at all, because they wouldn't be invisible to have the concealment to even make the Stealth check. And again, they didn't move into an area. They appeared in an area. From nothingness.
So to be clear, if I was playing in your game and I used my standard action to appear 30 feet in front of the party, fully visible, you would then let me use my move action to hide behind a bush before they could see me appear out of thin air directly in front of them.
And at the same time teleportation into a square is not movement in the square.
Not to be rude, but this is the kind of stuff that leads people to believe their is a huge disparity for casters, because if you are reading the rules that far in their favor, of course they would be broken in your game.
Edit: It isn't appearing "out of" nothingness, but teleporting "into a space"
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If they weren't invisible, then there would be no Perception check at all, because they wouldn't be invisible to have the concealment to even make the Stealth check. And again, they didn't move into an area. They appeared in an area. From nothingness.So to be clear, if I was playing in your game and I used my standard action to appear 30 feet in front of the party, fully visible, you would then let me use my move action to hide behind a bush before they could see me appear out of thin air directly in front of them.
And at the same time teleportation into a square is not movement in the square.
Well your arguing that teleporting is moving. We've got you on record for saying that. Which means the Stealth is made as part of teleporting. You're teleporting in, and in your Stealth is active. Or, the teleport isn't considered movement and you don't make a Stealth check, but in that case you're not actively moving and thus there is no DC 20 "something is there...maybe?" check.
Not to be rude, but this is the kind of stuff that leads people to believe their is a huge disparity for casters, because if you are reading the rules that far in their favor, of course they would be broken in your game.
Edit: It isn't appearing "out of" nothingness, but teleporting "into a space"
Someone moving at all in an area would be enough to trigger a check, but some someone appearing completely out of nothingness and moving into the same area wouldn't?
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what does this hugely inane derail have to do with anything
It's clearly demonstrating that monks are great...I think.
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Actually little to nothing, at least as far as the original topic went. Though every thread does take on a life of it's own.
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By all physical accounts, there is no way to actually do this physically. To take one thing from one side of the universe and place it on the other side of the universe, without warping the entire universe and twisting it around.
How do I get to work then?
I take one thing (my car) from one place to another. I don't think I'm warping the entire universe, I think I'm moving an object from one place to another. Along the way I am taking up space and if you are near my car when I do this you will likely notice, particularly if it is happening at rapid speeds.
Teleportation is removing a thing from a location and placing it in another location. I've had different GMs interpret how this works different ways, from a very science savy realist GM friend saying in his game it's an audible popping sound on both ends, to my game where it doesn't make any noise but would be as noticeable as someone taking a step into that spot from another nearby spot.
You describe it as "moving the Ghaele" but then say is wasn't movement for the purposes of detecting him.
I FAQed above so we'll see if the Devs rule in, but it seems pointless to say in the rule you can "sense" an invisible creature within 30 feat, but not if they displace about 200 pounds of space near you as they move into an area.
YMMV, but again it seems odd if you are coming from the stated position that casters are overpowered you would add such bonuses for them on top of what you perceive as a disparity.
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Well your arguing that teleporting is moving. We've got you on record for saying that. Which means the Stealth is made as part of teleporting. You're teleporting in, and in your Stealth is active. Or, the teleport isn't considered movement and you don't make a Stealth check, but in that case you're not actively moving and thus there is no DC 20 "something is there...maybe?" check.
Teleportation is a standard action in and of itself. Do you allow attempting stealth as part of a casting action in your game?
What point are you trying to make here exactly? That teleporting is somehow the same as driving your car to work? If that was so then teleportation would just be you moving really really fast from one point to the other, and god help you if there is anything in between, because at those speeds he's the only thing that will.
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What point are you trying to make here exactly? That teleporting is somehow the same as driving your car to work? If that was so then teleportation would just be you moving really really fast from one point to the other, and god help you if there is anything in between, because at those speeds he's the only thing that will.
The point is if teleportation is movement, by rule anyone who is within 30 feet when the invisible creature moves into the area gets a DC 20 perception check to sense that an invisible creature is nearby (with a much higher check to pinpoint where).
Even a 5 foot step would constitute movement, so they only reason I can think of that one would say moving into a space isn't movement would be because they want to get around the rule.
what does this hugely inane derail have to do with anythingWhen I said that back when it started, you criticized me for it.
Firstly let me say that I am personally enjoying this conversation so much that we should probably just move it because like A Mon in Black just said it is off topic.
Also Ciertose are you just looking to argue with the world? this last comment sounds like pouting more than point making.
How do I get to work then?By all physical accounts, there is no way to actually do this physically. To take one thing from one side of the universe and place it on the other side of the universe, without warping the entire universe and twisting it around.
I take one thing (my car) from one place to another. I don't think I'm warping the entire universe, I think I'm moving an object from one place to another. Along the way I am taking up space and if you are near my car when I do this you will likely notice, particularly if it is happening at rapid speeds.
Most likely moving through space, as opposed to removing yourself from space and then replacing you in space. It's an instantaneous spell. There is no delay in time. You are simply there and not elsewhere. It's not that you're moving very fast, you are just there. It's magic.
Teleportation is removing a thing from a location and placing it in another location. I've had different GMs interpret how this works different ways, from a very science savy realist GM friend saying in his game it's an audible popping sound on both ends, to my game where it doesn't make any noise but would be as noticeable as someone taking a step into that spot from another nearby spot.
Your GMs adding things to the spell is not my concern.
You describe it as "moving the Ghaele" but then say is wasn't movement for the purposes of detecting him.
I described the Ghaele as moving? Hm, odd. I think I actually said initially that the Ghaele isn't moving, but if it is movement then the Ghaele will simply take his Stealth check as part of that movement at no action. So he instantaneously arrives with Stealth active. Get it? It's kind of a "well damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of thing here; because either way the Ghaele ends up being hard to notice.
I FAQed above so we'll see if the Devs rule in, but it seems pointless to say in the rule you can "sense" an invisible creature within 30 feat, but not if they displace about 200 pounds of space near you as they move into an area.
YMMV, but again it seems odd if you are coming from the stated position that casters are overpowered you would add such bonuses for them on top of what you perceive as a disparity.
Do I think casters are overpowered? Hm, that's a good question. There's definitely disparity between casters and martials, but the only thing I actually believe makes them overpowered is that most martials lack options. Magic = options. I'm actually pretty happy with the game as it consists of...
Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Druid, Psychic Monk, Wizard, Sorcerer (slightly remixed), Alchemist, Barbarian, Cleric, etc. I have issues with Fighter, Rogue, and Monk, because they lack options. The Fighter tries to make up with it by having bigger numbers in a small area, but in my experiences I'd rather have people that bring options to the table. Rogues are simply overshadowed by Bards or Rangers. Monks have difficulties abound. Does that mean I think casters are OP? No. I just think they have options.
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what does this hugely inane derail have to do with anythingWhen I said that back when it started, you criticized me for it.Firstly let me say that I am personally enjoying this conversation so much that we should probably just move it because like A Mon in Black just said it is off topic.
Also Ciertose are you just looking to argue with the world? this last comment sounds like pouting more than point making.
I am honestly flabbergasted that anyone is arguing teleportation isn't movement.
It kind of blows my mind a bit.
I'm trying to be polite for a change, but I honestly can't fathom arguing that teleportation is not movement.
The point is if teleportation is movement, by rule anyone who is within 30 feet when the invisible creature moves into the area gets a DC 20 perception check to sense that an invisible creature is nearby (with a much higher check to pinpoint where).
Even a 5 foot step would constitute movement, so they only reason I can think of that one would say moving into a space isn't movement would be because they want to get around the rule.
Then i restate that if it is moving then it should come with the option for the Ghaele to use stealth with it, and thus we come back to the hugely insane check to make due to a +17 bonus to stealth.
[Edit: Darn Nija'd]
Then i restate that if it is moving then it should come with the option for the Ghaele to use stealth with it, and thus we come back to the hugely insane check to make due to a +17 bonus to stealth.The point is if teleportation is movement, by rule anyone who is within 30 feet when the invisible creature moves into the area gets a DC 20 perception check to sense that an invisible creature is nearby (with a much higher check to pinpoint where).
Even a 5 foot step would constitute movement, so they only reason I can think of that one would say moving into a space isn't movement would be because they want to get around the rule.
Agreed. Like I said before. Either it's movement and the Ghaele appears with a d20 + 37 DC, or he's not moving and it's a moot point. In either case, the DC is going to be really high.
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Then i restate that if it is moving then it should come with the option for the Ghaele to use stealth with it, and thus we come back to the hugely insane check to make due to a +17 bonus to stealth.The point is if teleportation is movement, by rule anyone who is within 30 feet when the invisible creature moves into the area gets a DC 20 perception check to sense that an invisible creature is nearby (with a much higher check to pinpoint where).
Even a 5 foot step would constitute movement, so they only reason I can think of that one would say moving into a space isn't movement would be because they want to get around the rule.
You can't use the standard action to cast and at the same time use stealth just as you can't use the standard action to attack and use stealth.
You can't use the standard action to cast and at the same time use stealth just as you can't use the standard action to attack and use stealth.
According to the rules, if teleporting is moving then yes I can.
@Ashiel- Actually you said "Teleport then occurs, moving the ghaele."
I did. Because I'm fine either way. The question is pretty simple. It's either moving the Ghaele about and not counted as movement, or the Ghaele gets to make his Stealth check as part of the Teleportation and thus is Stealthing immediately upon arrival.
Although using this line of logic makes the monk much better, since I can now apparently abundant step directly in front of the BBEG and then duck stealth behind a bush.
Correct?
If you ubundant stepped while invisible, or behind cover then I suspect so.
Although using this line of logic makes the monk much better, since I can now apparently abundant step directly in front of the BBEG and then duck stealth behind a bush.
Correct?
Do you have concealment as part of the teleport, or after the teleport? If you're invisible, sure. Your monk can DD-Stealth all day long. Same if you're monk is in a pitch dark room with folks that can only see in light. I have no problem with either scenario. Not having cover/concealment while teleporting creates a problem.
EDIT: If you use a cloak of the mountebank to DD-somewhere as say a rogue, that would work too. Might be kind of useful for getting into the killzone of a big monster (something rogues have a rough time doing sometimes).
So if I charge, I can also do stealth. That would be awesome for rogues.You can't use the standard action to cast and at the same time use stealth just as you can't use the standard action to attack and use stealth.According to the rules, if teleporting is moving then yes I can.
Sure if you stealth while charging you must first either be invisible or behind cover, and then you are going to take negatives for stealthing while running. But sure you can attempt it.