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Only one Standard action a round, I'm afraid. Keep in mind, with at-will Greater Invisibility, time is on the Ghaele's side. He can attack someone and remain invisible. So the Ghaele opens up with a Flame Strike, and with his 150 fly speed, moves away. It then becomes a case of:
"Did you see that?"
"Ah F*%* that hurt!"
"Where'd it come from?"
"I dunno, I didn't see it!"
"OW!! What the hell was That! Beam of lights just came flying out of nowhere! Damn that HURT!"
"I saw it come from over there, but whatever it is, it remains invisible after it attacks"
"Gimme a second guys, I'll see if I can't figure something else out, the Arcane arts have never failed me before!""..."
I could go on, but I don't want to. Suffice to say, the Ghaele is taking her time, using her Invisibility to her advantage. Action Economy is never on her side, but the fact the party can't target her with any of it's abilities, mitigates that factor a lot.
Your post is made of angels and win. +1 to this.
Or should I say Azatas and win?| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Yeah. When picking classes, I tend to look for what they can add to a party, not take away."
In certain other posts, this is true. However, in the case of the monk, it may not be. Your previous posts highlighted that monks tend to have certain glaring weaknesses and I agree the clas does. The difference is that when there is any example of monks beating something equal to their CR or two levels above their CR, it immediately becomes a fierce attempt to prove how it couldn't have happened. In the previous thread about monks, there was the posts about sticking dragons in armor and possibly other magic items from their treasure hoards. Strange thing is, that didn't actually come up in the thread until an example of a party with three monks and a warlock beat a dragon above their CR. Almost as if the monk has to stay extremely weak and useless from the view of some. If they were discovered to be adequate or even skilled at what they do, is it directly harmful in some way?
No one is trying to 'prove' how something couldn't happen. I've yet to see an encounter that showed the Monk being awesome (barring lucky rolls, I myself grappled and pinned a Bulette at level 5 thanks to some 20s), that didn't involve the GM playing stupid monsters.
Dragons that don't fly and cast spells or use blindsense.
Outsiders that don't use their Spell-like Abilities to gain an edge.
Demons and Devils that simply stand still and let people pound on them.
Dark Folk that don't use their Darkness abilities to control the battlefield.
The list goes on. Almost every time a scenario comes up that is along the lines of, "My Monk did this and this and this against this creature.." there is always a response of, "But X creature has Y ability, you couldn't do that to the creature!" and then the poster mentions something like, "Oh, it was a GM house rule, he let me do it and he's not the best tactical player either."
So the conclusion drawn is the Monk is an awesome class, if you ignore monster abilities, the GM is inexperienced and doesn't run intelligent monsters intelligently, and the GM house rules the Monk into winning a fight.
Basically, a Monk's got to cheat to win.
Let me ask another question: What role could wither of these characters fill as part of a four character party?Grokko Smash and see sneaky people, just not invisible ones.
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To the poster that mentioned the CR 18 monster neither lies nor snark wins debates. A 16 is far from an 18, and had you read my entire post you would noticed that I realised it was a bad idea, and went back to a 15. If need for me to bold key statements I can. :)See Invisibility will however. It's a personal spell, however, so only the caster has it.Wraithstrike has been educated today. I did not know it was a "personal" spell. Now I need a way a new way to reliably deal with invisible creatures as a melee type.
Tel's how many actions are you doing in one round?
"At will" abilities still take a standard action.
Once you teleport you are down to a move action.
PS:I still think the Ghaele is a tough fight if played to its potential, and I don't really expect it to stand and trade blows with a barbarian. I do think it would be buffed though.
Only one Standard action a round, I'm afraid. Keep in mind, with at-will Greater Invisibility, time is on the Ghaele's side. He can attack someone and remain invisible. So the Ghaele opens up with a Flame Strike, and with his 150 fly speed, moves away. It then becomes a case of:
"Did you see that?"
"Ah F!@% that hurt!"
"Where'd it come from?"
"I dunno, I didn't see it!"
"OW!! What the hell was That! Beam of lights just came flying out of nowhere! Damn that HURT!"
"I saw it come from over there, but whatever it is, it remains...
Once the monster is seen invisibility purge can be cast*. It can also be readied. Now the ghaele has to spend another standard action to reapply it.
I know invis purge won't reach the monster after it flies away which is why readying it is important.
Another option:
Once the monster is seen glitter dust comes into play. That means everyone can see it. Glitterdust has a long enough range that the ghaele's range attack won't save it. Glitterdust is a common spell so I don't think it is unfair to expect a wizard to have it. Flying and invisible creatures are things I make sure I can deal with in those rare times that I get to play.
"Yeah. When picking classes, I tend to look for what they can add to a party, not take away."
In certain other posts, this is true. However, in the case of the monk, it may not be. Your previous posts highlighted that monks tend to have certain glaring weaknesses and I agree the clas does. The difference is that when there is any example of monks beating something equal to their CR or two levels above their CR, it immediately becomes a fierce attempt to prove how it couldn't have happened. In the previous thread about monks, there was the posts about sticking dragons in armor and possibly other magic items from their treasure hoards. Strange thing is, that didn't actually come up in the thread until an example of a party with three monks and a warlock beat a dragon above their CR. Almost as if the monk has to stay extremely weak and useless from the view of some. If they were discovered to be adequate or even skilled at what they do, is it directly harmful in some way?
Dragon's don't need armor to handle monks, and honestly the barbarian either. Mage armor and shield give a +8 to whatever the dragon already has, and many of the dragon's in the book already have at least one of those.
Once the monster is seen invisibility purge can be cast*. It can also be readied. Now the ghaele has to spend another standard action to reapply it.
I know invis purge won't reach the monster after it flies away which is why readying it is important.
Another option:
Once the monster is seen glitter dust comes into play. That means everyone can see it. Glitterdust has a long enough range that the ghaele's range attack won't save it. Glitterdust is a common spell so I don't think it is unfair to expect a wizard to have it. Flying and invisible creatures are things I make sure I can deal with in those rare times that I get to play.
Oh I understand Invisibility Purge can be cast, but we're hedging into Schrodinger's territory now. It's why I specifically used the Arcane Bond for See Invisibility. The wizard didn't have it prepared, expecting True Seeing to suffice, but when it didn't he used his once per day freebie spell to cast it via his item. Granted, not every wizard chooses the Item Bond, but enough do that it's a viable option.
Remember, the Ghaele has a ranged attack of 300 ft, while Glitterdust has a Range of medium, or at 13th level, 230 ft. So the Ghaele's ranged attack has a greater range than Glitterdust. If the Ghaele is hit, he can simply Dispel it (as it's an at-will ability) or Teleport and Dispel if he isn't Dimensionally Anchored. Then he can re-apply his Invisibility, and come back for more fights.
Intelligent play means the Ghaele isn't going to be in one place for very long. She's going to keep moving, forcing as few attacks on her at once, while maximizing her damage output.
If I were running the encounter, and the Cleric had cast Invisibility Purge before Dimensional Anchor (assuming he had both spells), then I would Teleport away, and either wait out, or Dispel the Purge. If I have been Anchored, I fly away and Re-apply Greater Invisibility.
Think about this too. With a Fly speed of 150 ft, that means he has a 300 ft charge range.
Think about this too. With a Fly speed of 150 ft, that means he has a 300 ft charge range.
Seeing as the ghaele isn't wearing armor, the option to "run" 600 ft. in a single round is entirely viable. Hit and run is indeed very do-able for a ghaele. They're scary. Dimensional Anchor? Run away (through solid objects even) and dispel it, then great teleport around. Disguise yourself as someone else. Whatever. Ghaeles are masters of the sucker-shotgun (sucker-punch doesn't quite do it justice).
Once the monster is seen invisibility purge can be cast*. It can also be readied. Now the ghaele has to spend another standard action to reapply it.
I know invis purge won't reach the monster after it flies away which is why readying it is important.
Another option:
Once the monster is seen glitter dust comes into play. That means everyone can see it. Glitterdust has a long enough range that the ghaele's range attack won't save it. Glitterdust is a common spell so I don't think it is unfair to expect a wizard to have it. Flying and invisible creatures are things I make sure I can deal with in those rare times that I get to play.Oh I understand Invisibility Purge can be cast, but we're hedging into Schrodinger's territory now. It's why I specifically used the Arcane Bond for See Invisibility. The wizard didn't have it prepared, expecting True Seeing to suffice, but when it didn't he used his once per day freebie spell to cast it via his item. Granted, not every wizard chooses the Item Bond, but enough do that it's a viable option.
Remember, the Ghaele has a ranged attack of 300 ft, while Glitterdust has a Range of medium, or at 13th level, 230 ft. So the Ghaele's ranged attack has a greater range than Glitterdust. If the Ghaele is hit, he can simply Dispel it (as it's an at-will ability) or Teleport and Dispel if he isn't Dimensionally Anchored. Then he can re-apply his Invisibility, and come back for more fights.
Intelligent play means the Ghaele isn't going to be in one place for very long. She's going to keep moving, forcing as few attacks on her at once, while maximizing her damage output.
If I were running the encounter, and the Cleric had cast Invisibility Purge before Dimensional Anchor (assuming he had both spells), then I would Teleport away, and either wait out, or Dispel the Purge. If I have been Anchored, I fly away and Re-apply Greater Invisibility.
Think about this too. With a Fly speed of 150 ft, that means he has a 300 ft charge range.
I agree about the cleric which is why I switchted to Glitterdust.
From what I understand
Round 1
Ghale(already invisible) drops Flame Strike and flies off.
Wizard cast see invis.
Round 2:
The Ghaele appears beside the wizard. I am assuming he charged in because if he teleported he would not be able to attack.
The wizard then drops glitterdust.
If the Ghale stays out at 300 feet with his light rays, the right is most likely outside. The party would be smart to leave and prepare spells for this encounter and then return, unless they are on a hard timer. In that case if they did not know what they would be fighting and left no spell slots open, assuming the caster is a wizard then they might be in trouble. With 13 HD the Ghaele and the party both have the same chances as dispeling each other's spells. I certainly don't think the monster would be that hard to beat though.
Now if the fight is inside that 300 feet of ray distance never comes into play.
Fighting outside move things in favor of the Ghaele a lot more, but in that case the ghaele probably won't have time to prebuff. There is no corner to come around which was mentioned in an earlier post.
[spoiler= spells from 10th level wizard I had for a failed pbp]
5 (3/day) Wall of Stone (DC 23), Wall of Stone (DC 23), Summon Monster V, Telekinesis
4 (4/day) Black Tentacles, Wandering Star Motes (DC 21), Enervation, Summon Monster IV, Summon Monster IV
3 (5/day) Haste (DC 20), Haste (DC 20), Fireball (DC 20), Stinking Cloud (DC 21), Dispel Magic, Fly (DC 20)
2 (6/day) Glitterdust (DC 20), Glitterdust (DC 20), Darkvision (DC 19), Resist Energy (DC 19), Invisibility (DC 19), Mirror Image (DC 19), Rope Trick
1 (6/day) Enlarge Person (DC 18), Alarm, Protection from Evil (DC 18), Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 18), Grease (DC 19), Grease (DC 19), Expeditious Retreat (DC 18)
0 (at will) Light, Prestidigitation (DC 17), Read Magic (DC 17), Detect Magic
Two enervations average out to about 5 lost levels. That is a good debuff. It takes away some of her cure spells, and the better cleric spells she has access to.
I guess the main point is that the place of engagement is important also.
PS:If there is no hard time limit, then the players can just leave, just like the Ghaele can. I guess it depends on why they are fighting that would determine any fights to the death.
I'm am not sure what this thought experiment just demonstrated..........
Negative Levels isn't as strong as you think.I agree about the cleric which is why I switchted to Glitterdust.
From what I understand
Round 1
Ghale(already invisible) drops Flame Strike and flies off.Wizard cast see invis.
Round 2:
The Ghaele appears beside the wizard. I am assuming he charged in because if he teleported he would not be able to attack.The wizard then drops glitterdust.
If the Ghale stays out at 300 feet with his light rays, the right is most likely outside. The party would be smart to leave and prepare spells for this encounter and then return, unless they are on a hard timer. In that case if they did not know what they would be fighting and left no spell slots open, assuming the caster is a wizard then they might be in trouble. With 13 HD the Ghaele and the party both have the same chances as dispeling each other's spells. I certainly don't think the monster would be that hard to beat though.
Now if the fight is inside that 300 feet of ray distance never comes into play.
Fighting outside move things in favor of the Ghaele a lot more, but in that case the ghaele probably won't have time to prebuff. There is no corner to come around which was mentioned in an earlier post.
[spoiler= spells from 10th level wizard I had for a failed pbp]
5 (3/day) Wall of Stone (DC 23), Wall of Stone (DC 23), Summon Monster V, Telekinesis
4 (4/day) Black Tentacles, Wandering Star Motes (DC 21), Enervation, Summon Monster IV, Summon Monster IV
3 (5/day) Haste (DC 20), Haste (DC 20), Fireball (DC 20), Stinking Cloud (DC 21), Dispel Magic, Fly (DC 20)
2 (6/day) Glitterdust (DC 20), Glitterdust (DC 20), Darkvision (DC 19), Resist Energy (DC 19), Invisibility (DC 19), Mirror Image (DC 19), Rope Trick
1 (6/day) Enlarge Person (DC 18), Alarm, Protection from Evil (DC 18), Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 18), Grease (DC 19), Grease (DC 19), Expeditious Retreat (DC 18)
0 (at will) Light, Prestidigitation (DC 17), Read Magic (DC 17), Detect MagicTwo enervations average out to about 5 lost levels. That is a good debuff. It takes away some of her cure spells, and the better cleric spells she has access to.
I guess the main point is that the place of engagement is important also.
PS:If there is no hard time limit, then the players can just leave, just like the Ghaele can. I guess it depends on why they are fighting that would determine any fights to the death.
p
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
What it does do, is lower the Caster Level of spells (so one could theoretically have a CL of 2 and cast a 2d6 Fireball). Also, the Ghaele has a Restoration prepared, which dispels all temporary Negative Levels.
I have to say, the more I look at the Ghaele, the more I think it should be bumped up to CR 14 or 15, the thing is just damned hard to pin down and kill.
PS:If there is no hard time limit, then the players can just leave, just like the Ghaele can. I guess it depends on why they are fighting that would determine any fights to the death.
I dunno. I'd think that the Ghaele would happily follow them. I mean, with improved invisibility as a spell-like ability (no components so it can be used completely silently), incorporeality if desired (makes no sound unless desired), and the ability to greater teleport at will (literally anywhere it wants to be when it wants to be there (such as right next to that guy) makes them very dangerous. Kind of for many of the same reasons succubi are dangerous, only worse.
As a player, if we encountered a hostile ghaele who was wanting to fight us for some reason (it might be planar bound by a neutral or evil dude that is forcing it to do something it doesn't really wanna do, or it might be a classic conflict of methods between good-aligned fellows) then I'd be pretty paranoid. The Ghaele could easily catch us with our pants down. Pretty much means we'd be sleeping in extradimensional spaces and warded out of our minds. Might even drop a magic circle against good or chaos around us to keep the ghaele out of our resting places; such because clobbering us while we were resting would be easy.
Fighting a ghaele the 2nd time around would be terrifying, I think. If the Ghaele wasn't bad enough, giving each side the chance to rest and prepare new spells means the Ghaele is coming back with spells that will pound your face. While you're distracted with the celestial T-Rex that suddenly came running your way, the ghaele would be slipping into the back of your ranks to grab up your flanks, except this time she cast spell immunity and chose dimensional anchor as one of the spells she's immune to. GG guys, GG. :P
She probably also replaced stuff like raise dead with things like righteous might and replaced dismissal with more divine power spells and freedom of movement. If at first you don't succeed, stack the deck in your favor. That is the motto of anything with spells after all.
I kind of want to throw one of these at my PCs later in my current campaign, and see how they deal with it. Maybe a recurring antagonist. :3
What it does do, is lower the Caster Level of spells (so one could theoretically have a CL of 2 and cast a 2d6 Fireball). Also, the Ghaele has a Restoration prepared, which dispels all temporary Negative Levels.
I have to say, the more I look at the Ghaele, the more I think it should be bumped up to CR 14 or 15, the thing is just damned hard to pin down and kill.
You might be right. It's like the celestial version of a Shadow Demon in that it's pretty damn mean. These ladies kick all manner of tooshy. They were considered CR 13 back in 3.5 when they had 65 Hp and less offense. :P
Death ward can last an entire battle and then some (13 minute duration IIRC) and would make her outright immune to negative levels and negative energy based attacks (which is like 90% of all necromancy stuff). If the GM was just being mean, he'd give her a life drinker instead of her +2 holy greatsword and let her play the negative level game with the party. But we're assuming the GM is using her strait out of the book. :3
Man, can't you just see it? Buuuuuuuuufffffffssss, then greater teleport, full attack with a life drinker while greater invisible, dealing 1d12+15 damage plus 2 negative levels with each hit, which is another -10 HP, and -2 to all attacks, saves, and skill checks. After a full-attack, the ghaele would just drop some charm monster spells or hold monster spells to keep the wounded opponents out of the fight. I mean, if she thwacks you 3 times, that's a -6 to all your saves. If she crits you, that's a -6 just from that hit alone (negative levels are multiplied on crits y'know).
GM: "Okay, sorry about this, but I need a DC 17 will save at a -6 penalty or you're the Ghaele's new BFF." :P
Heck, the battle of attrition would be ruinous!
PC: "Sweet Jesus! Everytime we try to retaliate that cursed celestial just runs away! Then, when we least expect it, WHACK! I've got 7 negative levels already. Duke's at -10, so not only is he close to dead but he has no prayer of breaking her spell resistance. Jim Bob wandered off because she told him to go home and rethink his life, and her opposed Charisma check wasn't hard since he was at a -8 to his checks. It's game over man, game over! She's everywhere man!"
I did not see that restoration. I see this fight would be more annoying that I thought it would be.
Gah, shows what I get for not reading the entirety of the monster entry, instead of just reading the stats.
A ghaele can shift between its solid body and one made of light as a standard action. In solid form, it cannot fly or use light rays. In light form, it can fly and gains the incorporeal quality—it can make light ray attacks or use spell-like abilities in this form, but can't make physical attacks or cast spells. This ability otherwise functions similarly to a bralani's wind form ability.
However, most of the a fore mentioned tactics are still largely applicable. She can still fly up into the air and shoot light rays, but she has to Greater Teleport underground, then move up and changed back into Human form before attacking.
She just can't charge really, but that's not a big deal.
However, it does mitigate her non-human flying somewhat because she can turn Incoporeal, and use her Cure Light Wounds to patch herself up while staying safely out of reach in a wall, the ground, or some other place the PCs can't get her.
I think, when people think of Angels and Divine Wrath, they're actually picturing a Ghaele Azata. I know I do. Solars and Planetars are cool and all, but how often do you run into one? I think for most cases, a Ghaele would serve the purpose of Divine Wrath quite nicely.
PS:If there is no hard time limit, then the players can just leave, just like the Ghaele can. I guess it depends on why they are fighting that would determine any fights to the death.I dunno. I'd think that the Ghaele would happily follow them. I mean, with improved invisibility as a spell-like ability (no components so it can be used completely silently), incorporeality if desired (makes no sound unless desired), and the ability to greater teleport at will (literally anywhere it wants to be when it wants to be there (such as right next to that guy) makes them very dangerous. Kind of for many of the same reasons succubi are dangerous, only worse.
As a player, if we encountered a hostile ghaele who was wanting to fight us for some reason (it might be planar bound by a neutral or evil dude that is forcing it to do something it doesn't really wanna do, or it might be a classic conflict of methods between good-aligned fellows) then I'd be pretty paranoid. The Ghaele could easily catch us with our pants down. Pretty much means we'd be sleeping in extradimensional spaces and warded out of our minds. Might even drop a magic circle against good or chaos around us to keep the ghaele out of our resting places; such because clobbering us while we were resting would be easy.
Fighting a ghaele the 2nd time around would be terrifying, I think. If the Ghaele wasn't bad enough, giving each side the chance to rest and prepare new spells means the Ghaele is coming back with spells that will pound your face. While you're distracted with the celestial T-Rex that suddenly came running your way, the ghaele would be slipping into the back of your ranks to grab up your flanks, except this time she cast spell immunity and chose dimensional anchor as one of the spells she's immune to. GG guys, GG. :P
She probably also replaced stuff like raise dead with things like righteous might and replaced dismissal...
If there is a 2nd engagement the ghaele falls hard. The party has a 7th level cleric of its own. Locking the area down with "no-teleport" spells would be the ideal situation. The T-Rex should be able to grapple it. As for the other T-Rex(enemy T-Rex) it is not a priority. Kill the Ghaele first. Spell Immunity is only 10 min/level. She has to have a decent knowledge of when to cast the spell.
I don't see the ghaele winning the first time, much less the second time. Even if she plays the hit and run game all she is doing is stalling. Best case scenario her timing is right which means spell immunity has to be dispelled. I give her 5 rounds before she is defeated or gets send packing again.
Locking the ghaele down with a T-Rex of its own could work.
Ashiel I want you to try to counter the Ghaele just so you know how easy it is for a a 2nd engagement.
Remember the 2nd fight allows for Schrodinger's tactics to a large extent because you know what you are up against.
I am assuming the Ghaele will try to prevent the anchor spell, enervation, and invisibility purge if she can time spell immunity correctly.
Gah, shows what I get for not reading the entirety of the monster entry, instead of just reading the stats.
A ghaele can shift between its solid body and one made of light as a standard action. In solid form, it cannot fly or use light rays. In light form, it can fly and gains the incorporeal quality—it can make light ray attacks or use spell-like abilities in this form, but can't make physical attacks or cast spells. This ability otherwise functions similarly to a bralani's wind form ability.However, most of the a fore mentioned tactics are still largely applicable. She can still fly up into the air and shoot light rays, but she has to Greater Teleport underground, then move up and changed back into Human form before attacking.
She just can't charge really, but that's not a big deal.
However, it does mitigate her non-human flying somewhat because she can turn Incoporeal, and use her Cure Light Wounds to patch herself up while staying safely out of reach in a wall, the ground, or some other place the PCs can't get her.
I think, when people think of Angels and Divine Wrath, they're actually picturing a Ghaele Azata. I know I do. Solars and Planetars are cool and all, but how often do you run into one? I think for most cases, a Ghaele would serve the purpose of Divine Wrath quite nicely.
Yeah, angels can be pretty bad too though. I've used them before. However, for some reason angels don't get the teleporting thing. Demons, devils, and azata have greater teleport at will. Angels, however, do not. I'm not sure why. It puts angels at a terrible disadvantage in the grand scheme of things.
Ashiel I want you to try to counter the Ghaele just so you know how easy it is for a a 2nd engagement.
Remember the 2nd fight allows for Schrodinger's tactics to a large extent because you know what you are up against.
I am assuming the Ghaele will try to prevent the anchor spell, enervation, and invisibility purge if she can time spell immunity correctly.
Just so I know how easy it is for a 2nd engagement? Hmm, I doubt it'll be easy actually, but I'll cook something up. You might have to wait for a while though, 'cause a friend of mine came over and I need to spend some time with him.
We are off topic. Let's suspend the under CR'd ghaele conversation until later. I will write an actual post on this later instead of generalizations.
Now back to the monk. :)
By the way, before 3.5 or ciretose try to claim otherwise, derailed the thread with speculation on the under CR of the Ghaele and it's powers. Just because Ashiel mentioned it, does not mean he derailed it some 2 pages ago.
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Actually Tels did a good post awhile back about what the rest of the party could do that was quite helpful.
As I pointed out the Ghaele has a ranged touch attack that ignores DR. As Tels points out they can use it from 300 feet (adjusting for conditions and perception of course) meaning if you assume the Ghaele sees the party first and gets initiative, they can stay invisible and out of the range of the Barbarian. The monk could get to the Ghaele using dimension door (400 ft range + 40 a level) but it wouldn't be helpful since the Ghaele is invisible.
Looking at the option, depending on the layout Glitterdust could be too far (230 ft for a 13th level caster) or could work fine since not all areas are more than 300ft across and well lit (because that is far out of the range of darkvision.
See invisible would work great on whoever you cast it on. If you cast it on the monk, the monk can get there (DD) and attack while having an armor class of at least 35 (30+5 for barkskin). If they get lucky and are able to Stun them with that attack...pretty sweet.
True seeing isn't going to work because they are going to either stay the 300 feet away and keep pinging and the range is 120. Plus it's just kind of overkill.
Let's look at the greater teleport to the caster strategy. You use your standard action to teleport next to the caster and hope you aren't detected by anyone (because all you have left is a move action and you are sitting in the middle of 5 people who can hurt you, one of which is likely to have see invisible or given the high perception checks...
So I can't "drop" the wizard on the round I teleport in, and I have to hope I can teleport in undetected, because if I am detected, everyone is getting an action before me and my move action and I can't get out of the range of glitterdust in a round.
So looking at what the two add. The Barbarian is great if the Ghaele for some reason decides to get within the party, since they can charge pounce for a ton of one round damage if some sees the Ghaele and removes invisibility.
Which is why that is a really bad strategy.
If the Ghaele uses it's ranged attacks (including as you mentioned flame strike) the Barbarian is in much worse shape than the monk, since defensively the monk has evasion and high touch AC and offensively the monk can actually get to the Ghaele using abundant step, since that is well within the monks range.
But both have issues, as if the Ghaele is at range using light ray, it is incorporeal.
This set up isn't great for either, but I can think of no reason for the Ghaele to close with the party in physical form and expose itself to things like invisibility purge or Barbarians.
Of the two, the monk has better options if the Ghaele is being played intelligently. Neither have great options, but the party as a whole shouldn't have too much difficulty with the fight unless it is custom made for the Ghaele.
Which having the Ghaele will initiative in a giant well lit space kinda is.
Since we are moving back to CR 15 territory I will make two more random rolls. Once again I will avoid dragons. I will also avoid the oni since it has already been used.
I rolled the golem cannon, and the Seraptis Demon.
At first glance I am thinking the golem will be a push over for both of them.
I won't be able to run the numbers until I get home from work.
There are 33 monsters if you take out the dragons and Oni that was used earlier.
I rolled a 1d33, and just counted. This was the page I used. click me
edit:The golem is to dumb to be a real boss monster, and serves better as minion of a higher CR creature, IMHO.
edit2: I keep getting a 5. I guess the website is trying to preserve the 5 I rolled for the golem. If all of you agree with the golem cannon it is ok for me, but if not one of you will have to reroll.
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By the way, before 3.5 or ciretose try to claim otherwise, derailed the thread with speculation on the under CR of the Ghaele and it's powers. Just because Ashiel mentioned it, does not mean he derailed it some 2 pages ago.
I don't think this is a derail at all. It is looking at what the options are given a full party, adding each of the builds.
It is exactly what we agreed to.
What is a derail is blatantly trying to put a finger on the scale to find scenarios and specific actions that "prove" you are right in an strange corner case.
The more I look at what a party would do with the Ghaele, the more I think the monk would be more useful than the Barbarian in this specific situation.
There are lots of other situations where the Barbarian would be better, I just don't think it is at all helpful to only look for those scenarios when discussing things.
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As someone who lurks these conversations, it is golden when someone posts a build to back-up their point. Abstract conversation is all well and good, but until it is applied its usefulness is questionable and well, remains abstract.
Exactly. If you want to show you are right, you aren't interest in posting a build.
If you want to find out if you are right, you do.
Actually Tels did a good post awhile back about what the rest of the party could do that was quite helpful.
As I pointed out the Ghaele has a ranged touch attack that ignores DR. As Tels points out they can use it from 300 feet (adjusting for conditions and perception of course) meaning if you assume the Ghaele sees the party first and gets initiative, they can stay invisible and out of the range of the Barbarian. The monk could get to the Ghaele using dimension door (400 ft range + 40 a level) but it wouldn't be helpful since the Ghaele is invisible.
The Ghaele doesn't need to win initiative. It's been mentioned before, the Ghaele can Teleport away, buff/heal, and come back. So regardless of what the initiative is, unless the party can kill it in a round, then the Ghaele can always come back at full power. It's got Cure Light Wounds as an at-will ability. Give it some time, it will patch itself, then apply buffs, and come back to whoop ass.
Looking at the option, depending on the layout Glitterdust could be too far (230 ft for a 13th level caster) or could work fine since not all areas are more than 300ft across and well lit (because that is far out of the range of darkvision.
See invisible would work great on whoever you cast it on. If you cast it on the monk, the monk can get there (DD) and attack while having an armor class of at least 35 (30+5 for barkskin). If they get lucky and are able to Stun them with that attack...pretty sweet.
True seeing isn't going to work because they are going to either stay the 300 feet away and keep pinging and the range is 120. Plus it's just kind of overkill.
Need to point out, that the spell See Invisibility is a personal spell. So only the person casting the spell benefits from it. You can't cast it on another person.
Let's look at the greater teleport to the caster strategy. You use your standard action to teleport next to the caster and hope you aren't detected by anyone (because all you have left is a move action and you are sitting in the middle of 5 people who can hurt you, one of which is likely to have see invisible or given the high perception checks...
So I can't "drop" the wizard on the round I teleport in, and I have to hope I can teleport in undetected, because if I am detected, everyone is getting an action before me and my move action and I can't get out of the range of glitterdust in a round.
I don't know why people keep thinking all tactical moves must be made in a single round. Let's say the Wizard prepares and casts See Invisibility. That means he's going to be able to visibly track the Ghaele at 300 ft away, assuming clear skies etc. The Ghaele will notice this (+20 Perception) and act appropriately. Let's say she Teleports near the Wizard. Now she is standing near the Wizard, if the Wizard tries to cast, he provokes an AoO, if he does anything but Withdraw, he's going to provoke, or still be there when the round ends. The Wizard is going to need to cast defensively, if he plans on getting away without just fleeing.
The Wizard can certainly pinpoint the square, but between her armor, her DR, and her 50% miss chance, she feels fine with sticking around for a round or two. All she needs is a couple of good hits to put the Wizard on edge, then she can Teleport away, heal up, and return for a fight. Not until she actually intends to go on a melee spree, will she pop Divine Power.
So looking at what the two add. The Barbarian is great if the Ghaele for some reason decides to get within the party, since they can charge pounce for a ton of one round damage if some sees the Ghaele and removes invisibility.
Which is why that is a really bad strategy.
Not really a bad strategy. The Ghaele would get close to neutralize 1 or 2 classes, retreat, heal, and come back. The Ghaele has infinite healing, the PCs do not. So a war of attrition really favors the Ghaele.
By Neutralize, I mean dropping the Wizard, forcing the Cleric to heal him back up. This puts two characters out of the fight for the immediate future.
If the Ghaele uses it's ranged attacks (including as you mentioned flame strike) the Barbarian is in much worse shape than the monk, since defensively the monk has evasion and high touch AC and offensively the monk can actually get to the Ghaele using abundant step, since that is well within the monks range.
You're fond of mentioning party tactics. It'd actually be better for the Ghaele to attack the Barbarian. It's drawing attacks away from the casters, and he can soak the damage fairly well.
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Honestly, the best thing for the Party to do is Teleport away if they don't have the necessary spells to take out the Ghaele. If they have both True Seeing and See Invisibility, cast True Seeing on the Fighter or Barbarian/Monk, and wait for the Ghaele to close ranks.
If they have See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge, wait for the Ghaele to close ranks, and when the Wizard uses a readied action, the Cleric pops his Invisibility Purge, and the Barbarian and Fighter, or Monk and Fighter go ape-shit crazy to drive the Ghaele away.
I'm trying not to pick any corner case spells that a Cleric or Wizard could use to auto-win this encounter (like banishing the Ghaele away). See Invisibility, True Seeing, and Invisibility Purge are all useful spells. In my Kingmaker group, we have a Cleric who dedicates a spell slot solely to Invisibility Purge, so it's not impossible for the Cleric to have it.
But I would say it's unlikely for a Cleric to be carrying a Dismissal prepared on the off-chance it runs into an extraplanar creature. Granted, it's not impossible, but the Ghaele has a good chance of making such saves, and if it doesn't she's got some good SR.
If the casters could debuff the Ghaele's Will save somewhat,then chain-cast Dismissal, this encounter would be a lot easier. They'd 'win' because they banished the Ghaele, but they wouldn't 'win' because they killed it.
The best tactics for the Barbarian or Monk to perform against a Ghaele, is draw attacks and protect the casters I think. A full Rage/Psycho!Barbarian could probably tear the Ghaele apart, but no such Barbarian was posted in this thread.
(off-topic) I bet a Paladin would be at quite a conundrum in this fight. Lucky no one posted one :P
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See invisible would work great on whoever you cast it on. If you cast it on the monk, the monk can get there (DD) and attack while having an armor class of at least 35 (30+5 for barkskin). If they get lucky and are able to Stun them with that attack...pretty sweet.
You can't cast See Invisibility on the monk or on anyone else - its range is personal. The only thing you could do is hand the monk a wand of See Invisible and hope he makes a UMD check.
Believe me, this is a great source of frustration in our party. Our GM loves to throw invisible stuff at us, and we don't yet have an effective counter.*EDIT*
This is why my monk characters are prone to have 1 level of empyreal sorcerer.
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Good catches on the see invisibility.
Glitterdust still goes out to 230 ft, and so is still viable. If the Ghaele closes and is within 30 ft he is detectable by a DC 20 perception check (which is anything but a 1 for both the monk and the barbarian) meaning anyone who has invisibility purge or glitterdust is using it and suddenly Ghaele with an entire party getting a round of attacks.
Closing on the wizard means coming into range of invisibility purge, and anything within 230 feet is in range of glitter dust.
I think you are being completely on the up and up Tels. Anything with invisibility is a challenge for the monk and barbarian we built because we both failed to adapt for it. Totally a mistake on my part in planning, and I bet wraith would say the same.
It particularly is bad for the monk in this case, as if he could see him he could actually be very useful.
In most games I run the caster has permanent see invisability by this level and always glitterdust. I can't remember the last time we had a well lit open space that large that involved an greater invisible creature with long range attacks.
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Dragons that don't fly and cast spells or use blindsense.
Outsiders that don't use their Spell-like Abilities to gain an edge.
Demons and Devils that simply stand still and let people pound on them.
Dark Folk that don't use their Darkness abilities to control the battlefield.
All of these things happen. And monks of appropriate level deal with them in the context of a party.
If you want to cite an encounter as you did above, that would be helpful. Saying "I never saw it" goes toward a lack of evidence is not the same as an evidence of lack.
In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
If that has no value to you, great. I've seen it be quite awesome on a number of occasions. I've seen entire parties dropped, except for the monk thanks to the saves and immunity.
Does the monk need a way to enchant their primary weapon. Yes. Has the monk been outshined by the posted barbarian, I don't see it.
Let us speak less in hyperbole and more in evidence. Let us not lower ourselves.
In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
Didn't Wraithstrike already point out that you cannot DD into the air? Or are we talking when it's land bound with the sword?
By the way, before 3.5 or ciretose try to claim otherwise, derailed the thread with speculation on the under CR of the Ghaele and it's powers. Just because Ashiel mentioned it, does not mean he derailed it some 2 pages ago.
Thank you Tels. Your effort means a lot to me. ^-^
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Didn't Wraithstrike already point out that you cannot DD into the air? Or are we talking when it's land bound with the sword?In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
And then I cited DD and he realized there was no such restriction.
Good catches on the see invisibility.
Glitterdust still goes out to 230 ft, and so is still viable. If the Ghaele closes and is within 30 ft he is detectable by a DC 20 perception check (which is anything but a 1 for both the monk and the barbarian) meaning anyone who has invisibility purge or glitterdust is using it and suddenly Ghaele with an entire party getting a round of attacks.
Closing on the wizard means coming into range of invisibility purge, and anything within 230 feet is in range of glitter dust.
I think you are being completely on the up and up Tels. Anything with invisibility is a challenge for the monk and barbarian we built because we both failed to adapt for it. Totally a mistake on my part in planning, and I bet wraith would say the same.
It particularly is bad for the monk in this case, as if he could see him he could actually be very useful.
In most games I run the caster has permanent see invisability by this level and always glitterdust. I can't remember the last time we had a well lit open space that large that involved an greater invisible creature with long range attacks.
I don't know if I'm coming across very clear. But first, I need to quote something.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.
So DC 20 to know 'somethings there' and DC 40 to pinpoint it's location. However, that won't really factor in much in the example I've mentioned a number of times now.
Let's say Round 7 when this takes down as the Ghaele Teleported out to add Aid and Bull's Strength and Greater Invisibility (in that order) before Teleporting back in to the fight. By the way, I'll be casting from Lord Wraithstrike's spell list, so as to have no Schrodinger Wizard
Round 7: Ghaele notices the Wizard is tracking his movements, but only has a move action left as he just Teleported. Wizard points out the Ghaele, and readies Glitterdust. Cleric readies Purge, whie Barbarian/Monk, Fighter and Rogue all withhold.
Round 8: Ghaele teleports in to the square farthest away from the melee classes, hopefully putting the Wizard's body between herself and another character, preferably the Fighter or Barbarian/Monk. Wizard goes off, attempting a DC 19 check to cast Glitterdust defensively (not hard to do as the Wizard has a minimum +16 on the check). Cleric Casts Purge. Ghaele now finishes it's turn with a move-action. It probably makes the DC 15 (minimum) save vs Blindness from Glitterdust, so it can use it's movement to move 50 ft away (if possible, keeping the Wizard between herself and one of the martials).
Fighter, Rogue and Barbarian/Monk act. Possible chance of one of the three not being able to charge as the Wizard being in the way, or the other two characters being in the way once they've charged.
Round 9: Unless the Ghaele dies from the charges (unlikely, but possible) the Ghaele can 5-foot step and Teleport away. Then it proceeds to Dispel Glitterdust, heal, re-apply Greater Invisibility, and teleport back.
Round 16 (after buffs, healts, etc): Ghaele teleports back in. Purge is still running, but the Ghaele stays away, for now. Wizard readies Glitterdust again.
Round 17: Ghaele hits Wizard with a Dispel Magic, and starts moving. She will proceed to do this every round until the Wizard can no longer see her. Then he will try to hit the Cleric to end the Purge. She won't know if either is gone, so he will have to go on faith that she succeeded.
Granted, that's not exactly how it goes down, but it's the point I was trying to make. The Ghaele can always retreat and spam out Dispel Magics until she thinks the buffs are gone, then return to the fight. As long as the Wizard can keep track of the Ghaele, the Fighter, Rogue and Barbarian/Monk can keep driving it away, at which point it heals, and returns. In this situation, it's best for the Party to retreat, than it is to stay there and keep getting pounded on by a highly mobile Fighter/Cleric (essentially).
And then I cited DD and he realized there was no such restriction.Didn't Wraithstrike already point out that you cannot DD into the air? Or are we talking when it's land bound with the sword?In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
Fair enough. Good to know.
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Fair enough. Good to know.And then I cited DD and he realized there was no such restriction.Didn't Wraithstrike already point out that you cannot DD into the air? Or are we talking when it's land bound with the sword?In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
I blew it on see invis earlier. Happens.
I blew it on see invis earlier. Happens.Fair enough. Good to know.And then I cited DD and he realized there was no such restriction.Didn't Wraithstrike already point out that you cannot DD into the air? Or are we talking when it's land bound with the sword?In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
Mistakes are chances to learn for the next time, aye? :)
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Mistakes are chances to learn for the next time, aye? :)I blew it on see invis earlier. Happens.Fair enough. Good to know.And then I cited DD and he realized there was no such restriction.Didn't Wraithstrike already point out that you cannot DD into the air? Or are we talking when it's land bound with the sword?In the discussed encounter if the Ghaele can be made visible, only one of the melee classes can get to the Ghaele.
The monk.
PYRAMID!!!
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Let's say Round 7 when this takes down as the Ghaele Teleported out to add Aid and Bull's Strength and Greater Invisibility (in that order) before Teleporting back in to the fight. By the way, I'll be casting from Lord Wraithstrike's spell list, so as to have no Schrodinger Wizard
Round 7: Ghaele notices the Wizard is tracking his movements, but only has a move action left as he just Teleported. Wizard points out the Ghaele, and readies Glitterdust. Cleric readies Purge, whie Barbarian/Monk, Fighter and Rogue all withhold.
Round 8: Ghaele teleports in to the square farthest away from the melee classes, hopefully putting the Wizard's body between herself and another character, preferably the Fighter or Barbarian/Monk. Wizard goes off, attempting a DC 19 check to cast Glitterdust defensively (not hard to do as the Wizard has a minimum +16 on the check). Cleric Casts Purge. Ghaele now finishes it's turn with a move-action. It probably makes the DC 15 (minimum) save vs Blindness from Glitterdust, so it can use it's movement to move 50 ft away (if possible, keeping the Wizard between herself and one of the martials).
Fighter, Rogue and Barbarian/Monk act. Possible chance of one of the three not being able to charge as the Wizard being in the way, or the other two characters being in the way once they've charged.
Round 9: Unless the Ghaele dies from the charges (unlikely, but possible) the Ghaele can 5-foot step and Teleport away. Then it proceeds to Dispel Glitterdust, heal, re-apply Greater Invisibility, and teleport back.
Round 16 (after buffs, healts, etc): Ghaele teleports back in. Purge is still running, but the Ghaele stays away, for now. Wizard readies Glitterdust again.
Round 17: Ghaele hits Wizard with a Dispel Magic, and starts moving. She will proceed to do this every round until the Wizard can no longer see her. Then he will try to hit the Cleric to end the Purge. She won't know if either is gone, so he will have to go on faith that she succeeded.Granted, that's not exactly how it goes down, but it's the point I was trying to make. The Ghaele can always retreat and spam out Dispel Magics until she thinks the buffs are gone, then return to the fight. As long as the Wizard can keep track of the Ghaele, the Fighter, Rogue and Barbarian/Monk can keep driving it away, at which point it heals, and returns. In this situation, it's best for the Party to retreat, than it is to stay there and keep getting pounded on by a highly mobile Fighter/Cleric (essentially).
I see it slightly differently. The Ghaele has to see the party first (otherwise the party will act first). You could argue that Ghaele can alway be greater invisible, but would the Ghaele?
But for the purposes of this, let us say the Ghaele gets the jump on the party, gets away to buff, then greater teleports into the party.
On the round he teleports in, I'm rolling perception checks, as the Ghaele has moved into an area within 30 ft of at least one and probably several players. The check is a 20, so it is likely detected there is something nearby suddenly.
Depending on the GM, this can go a couple of ways, but I think it would be fair for the players to be able to reasonably suspect from a 20 perception check something invisible is nearby. If the Ghaele moves at this point, he is even more likely to be "suspected", leading to the players who can effect invisibility to attempt to do so, assuming someone doesn't have see invisible (we are at 13th level, if I hadn't been dumb I would have addressed this in my build as I still have gold left and it is a 2nd level spell...)
All of the standards counters would work at this point and if the players hold until the caster "reveals" the Ghaele, you are getting a full round from each player on the Ghaele, which could take them out.
Particularly the Barbarian with pounce, which is why this set up is the Barbarian builds wheelhouse.
They don't need to ready anything, the Ghaele took it's turn and now it is the players turn. If the Ghaele was detected on it's turn the players will reveal and attack on their turn.
I see it slightly differently. The Ghaele has to see the party first (otherwise the party will act first). You could argue that Ghaele can alway be greater invisible, but would the Ghaele?
But for the purposes of this, let us say the Ghaele gets the jump on the party, gets away to buff, then greater teleports into the party.
On the round he teleports in, I'm rolling perception checks, as the Ghaele has moved into an area within 30 ft of at least one and probably several players. The check is a 20, so it is likely detected there is something nearby suddenly.
Depending on the GM, this can go a couple of ways, but I think it would be fair for the players to be able to reasonably suspect from a 20 perception check something invisible is nearby. If the Ghaele moves at this point, he is even more likely to be "suspected", leading to the players who can effect invisibility to attempt to do so, assuming someone doesn't have see invisible (we are at 13th level, if I hadn't been dumb I would have addressed this in my build as I still have gold left and it is a 2nd level spell...)
All of the standards counters would work at this point and if the players hold until the caster "reveals" the Ghaele, you are getting a full round from each player on the Ghaele, which could take them out.
Particularly the Barbarian with pounce, which is why this set up is the Barbarian builds wheelhouse.
They don't need to ready anything, the Ghaele took it's turn and now it is the players turn. If the Ghaele was detected on it's turn the players will reveal and attack on their turn.
I mentioned it before again as well. If the party wins Initiative, the Ghaele can Always retreat (either form turning into Light Form, or Greater Teleport). I started Round 7, because the Ghaele retreated, applied buffs, and came back. If you happened to Dimensionall Lock her, she can Dispel it until it's gone (as she can use her Dispel Magic Spell-like Ability while in light form). So let's say the Ghaele gets hit with Dimensional Anchor. She tries to teleport, and fails, so she physically retreats (via her 50 ft movement). On her next turn, she attains her Light Form and passes through the walls. While in the walls, she Dispels herself to remove the Dimensional Anchor. Every other round she attempts to Teleport until she succeeds. Once done, she Teleports away, assumes Humanoid form, applies buffs, and returns to combat.
Like I said, Initiative isn't really a factor when fighting the Ghaele. Unless you can kill the Ghaele on the first round, she will retreat and buff, then come back.
Also, even if every party member could make the DC 20 Perception check to notice an Invisibile person, they can't target the Ghaele until someone points it out. They will know something is invisible, but not know where it is. That is why the Wizard has a readied action. So he can cast Glitterdust and reveal the Ghaele, allowing the party to attack without a miss chance.
Also, I hope your Monk doesn't try and Abundant Step to the Ghaele while it's flying in Light Form shooting lazers. That'd be hilarious when you fall :P
...I see it slightly differently. The Ghaele has to see the party first (otherwise the party will act first). You could argue that Ghaele can alway be greater invisible, but would the Ghaele?
But for the purposes of this, let us say the Ghaele gets the jump on the party, gets away to buff, then greater teleports into the party.
On the round he teleports in, I'm rolling perception checks, as the Ghaele has moved into an area within 30 ft of at least one and probably several players. The check is a 20, so it is likely detected there is something nearby suddenly.
Depending on the GM, this can go a couple of ways, but I think it would be fair for the players to be able to reasonably suspect from a 20 perception check something invisible is nearby. If the Ghaele moves at this point, he is even more likely to be "suspected", leading to the players who can effect invisibility to attempt to do so, assuming someone doesn't have see invisible (we are at 13th level, if I hadn't been dumb I would have addressed this in my build as I still have gold left and it is a 2nd level spell...)
All of the standards counters would work at this point and if the players hold until the caster "reveals" the Ghaele, you are getting a full round from each player on the Ghaele, which could take them out.
Particularly the Barbarian with pounce, which is why this set up is the Barbarian builds wheelhouse.
They don't need to ready anything, the Ghaele took it's turn and now it is the players turn. If the Ghaele was detected on it's turn the players will reveal and attack on their turn.
Tels 1 minute ago
I have a tiny problem with this post. And that is that it assumes that the players are going to metagame, and metagame hard IMHO. Firstly when my DM calls for a perception check and my character fails, I don't automatically go "Well then, something has a stealth of 20, it must be invisible." And even worse than that I don't go "I failed to see something guys, be verwy verwy warwy. It might be a wabbit!"
No but in all seriousness assuming that the player is going to metagame to alter the outcome of the combat is wrong.
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I have a tiny problem with this post. And that is that it assumes that the players are going to metagame, and metagame hard IMHO. Firstly when my DM calls for a perception check and my character fails, I don't automatically go "Well then, something has a stealth of 20, it must be invisible." And even worse than that I don't go "I failed to see something guys, be verwy verwy warwy. It might be a wabbit!"No but in all seriousness assuming that the player is going to metagame to alter the outcome of the combat is wrong.
This didn't even occur to me. If there is no visible stimuli, it takes a move action to search for an Invisible creature. If they have no evidence of the creature being Invisible after it teleports away, to say they are searching, is meta-gaming.
[Edit] Also, should point this out. If the Ghaele isn't moving, then the DC to notice it's presence increases to DC 40, and the DC to pinpoint, increases to 60.
Invisibility notice the table? It's a list of modifier that can be applied to the Invisibility DC. So if the Ghaele teleports in, and doesn't move, the DC to notice her presence ifs 40. Good thing that Wizard had a readied action.
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Also, even if every party member could make the DC 20 Perception check to notice an Invisibile person, they can't target the Ghaele until someone points it out. They will know something is invisible, but not know where it is. That is why the Wizard has a readied action. So he can cast Glitterdust and reveal the Ghaele, allowing the party to attack without a miss chance.
I disagree.
Ghaele's turn, teleports in. At this moment the players get a perception check because a medium sized object just suddenly appeared with 30 feet of them, presumably at minimum displacing air if in physical form, which it would need to be to attack. If not, you are taking another standard action next round to get into physical form, which is another round to be detected...
So the Ghaele is there on it's turn. It also has a move action, but presumably it teleported where it wanted so it isn't moving. End of turn.
Next player who is within 30 feet gets a check. Both the barb and monk have perception over 20, so on anything but a one they can say as a free action "Hey, I think there is something invisible over there." and hold.
Wizard and cleric can do something about that on their turn, which it when the other players stop holding and beat the hell out of the Ghaele for a round until it tries to teleport away (which could provoke).
Now in my experience when you are dealing with outsiders, you probably know you are dealing with outsiders fairly early on and your cleric is adapting, but that is Schrodinger. What isn't Schrodinger is the tried and true "Hold until you make it not invisible, then hit it lots" strategy.
The Ghaele loses it's incorporeal and ability to fly when physical, and can't melee or cast spells when in light form. It takes a standard action to go back and forth, so this is a major hindering factor that makes it appropriate for CR 13.
If the party detects it popping in to hit the wizard, odds are good the Barbarian will be able to get a pounce which will be devastating. On the flip side, the barb can't do much of anything to it in light form.
The monk needs a lucky stun in the close encounter, which would game over, but I freely admit the barb advantage if the Ghaele closes. I just don't see why the Ghaele would close or get out of light form when the Ghaele can invisibly ping from distance, and in that situation the Barb is worse off.
If the party can negate invis somehow, the monk is much better off as the monk can close the 300 distance and attack in the same round. Sure it would need somewhat lucky roll to have stunning fist work, but it is possible and would be a fairly bad ass move.
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Invisibility notice the table? It's a list of modifier that can be applied to the Invisibility DC. So if the Ghaele teleports in, and doesn't move, the DC to notice her presence ifs 40. Good thing that Wizard had a readied action.
I would view teleportation as movement, as you are forcing things that were there out. In my game I personally wouldn't go so far as to say it made a popping noise, but if a GM did I don't think they would be out of line at all. It's about 200 pounds suddenly existing in a space where stuff wasn't before.
I'm failing to see how the party is realizing the ghaele is even present. The ghaele has, at minimum, DC 58 to notice coming in invisible. Assuming the ghaele teleports in, and then doesn't move, that's it's Stealth check +40.
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I have a tiny problem with this post. And that is that it assumes that the players are going to metagame, and metagame hard IMHO. Firstly when my DM calls for a perception check and my character fails, I don't automatically go "Well then, something has a stealth of 20, it must be invisible."
If I were running this would be a blind roll behind the screen. I get my players to write down the key checks on note cards before we start so I can roll for them when appropriate. I even occasionally roll dice for no reason so they never know for sure and can't metagame.
But if something teleports within 30 feet of you, by rule it is a DC 20 perception check to notice. Tels is I believe arguing the teleportation shouldn't count as movement, making it a DC 40 check, but I respectfully disagree with saying teleportation isn't movement.
Is that about right, Tels?
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I have a tiny problem with this post. And that is that it assumes that the players are going to metagame, and metagame hard IMHO. Firstly when my DM calls for a perception check and my character fails, I don't automatically go "Well then, something has a stealth of 20, it must be invisible." And even worse than that I don't go "I failed to see something guys, be verwy verwy warwy. It might be a wabbit!"No but in all seriousness assuming that the player is going to metagame to alter the outcome of the combat is wrong.
This didn't even occur to me. If there is no visible stimuli, it takes a move action to search for an Invisible creature. If they have no evidence of the creature being Invisible after it teleports away, to say they are searching, is meta-gaming.
[Edit] Also, should point this out. If the Ghaele isn't moving, then the DC to notice it's presence increases to DC 40, and the DC to pinpoint, increases to 60.
Invisibility notice the table? It's a list of modifier that can be applied to the Invisibility DC. So if the Ghaele teleports in, and doesn't move, the DC to notice her presence ifs 40. Good thing that Wizard had a readied action.
Actually any Ghaele worth his salt (ie: any common sense would use a move action to use his +17 to stealth as soon as he teleports into the area.
Why because he is trying to be sneaky as shown by the fact that he used greater invisibility at all. Also any creature that isn't going to try it's best not to be seen after using greater invisibility must have a few screws loose.
So with a [minimum of a 38 assuming a role of one] the Ghaele appears in the middle of the party and then the fun ensues.
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The Ghaele can use his move action to attempt stealth, the question is if the players get a roll when the Ghaele first enters the 30 ft range.
The rule reads."A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack."
I would say teleporting into a square is "active".
Now if they additionally hide after they stealth as a DM I would say something like "You thought you heard something over there for a second" or the like, but would disagree with the teleport not being movement or being active, and so the players should get the perception check at 20.
I have a tiny problem with this post. And that is that it assumes that the players are going to metagame, and metagame hard IMHO. Firstly when my DM calls for a perception check and my character fails, I don't automatically go "Well then, something has a stealth of 20, it must be invisible."
If I were running this would be a blind roll behind the screen. I get my players to write down the key checks on note cards before we start so I can roll for them when appropriate. I even occasionally roll dice for no reason so they never know for sure and can't metagame.
But if something teleports within 30 feet of you, by rule it is a DC 20 perception check to notice. Tels is I believe arguing the teleportation shouldn't count as movement, making it a DC 40 check, but I respectfully disagree with saying teleportation isn't movement.
Is that about right, Tels?
There is no check in the rules that says you get to suddenly be aware that someone teleported nearby. You're making stuff up. Isn't that what you always accuse me of doing, Ciretose?
a monster i propose;
Akhlut
A dorsal fin rises up from the back of this immense black-and-white-furred, wolf-like beast.
Akhlut
CR 13
XP 25,600
N Huge magical beast (cold, shapechanger)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, snow vision; Perception +14
DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 11, flat-footed 26 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +19 natural, -2 size)
hp 189 (18d10+90)
Fort +16, Ref +13, Will +10
DR 15/magic; Immune cold
Weaknesses vulnerability to fire
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +27 (4d8+15/15-20 plus 4d6 cold and grab)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks savage bite, shore storming, swallow whole (2d8+15 bludgeoning damage plus 4d6 cold, AC 19, 18 hp)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 18th; concentration +16)
1/day—control weather (windy or cold weather only)
STATISTICS
Str 31, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 4, Wis 15, Cha 6
Base Atk +18; CMB +30 (+34 grapple); CMD 43 (47 vs. trip)
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Stealth), Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+12 when jumping), Perception +14, Stealth +16 (+28 in snow), Swim +18; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +12 Stealth in snow
SQ change shape (orca; beast shape III), hold breath, snow walking
Languages Aquan (cannot speak)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Savage Bite (Ex)
An akhlut's bite threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.
Shore Storming (Ex)
An akhlut automatically transforms into an orca whenever it is fully immersed in water, losing its legs and fur. Likewise, when an akhlut emerges from the water, it automatically transforms into its wolf-orca hybrid form. If an akhlut moves from water to land (or vice versa) on the round before initiating combat, it gains a +8 bonus on its initiative check. This initial attack resolves as a charge. An akhlut has the same statistics in both forms.
Snow Vision (Ex)
An akhlut can see perfectly well in snowy conditions, and does not take any penalties on Perception checks while in snowy weather.
Snow Walking (Su)
An akhlut can walk on snow or thin sheets of ice as though affected by water walk. It only leaves a trail on such surfaces when it wants to.
Round 1 (Pre Combat) Akhlut uses it's spell like ability to create a blizzard.
Consecutive rounds; Akhlut does power attacking improved vital strike with it's bite for -5 to hit and +15 to damage and moves 40 feet back. keep kiting foe.
Attack Bonus; +22 Damage 12d8+30+4d6 cold. (Average 98 per successful hit)
Akhlut is immune to the blizzard it created and uses it to it's advantage.