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There's an inherent difference between congregating out of mutual intrest, and the inevitable way that f$*+wads and asshats will all jump on the douchewagon to try to belittle another group. This thread is another example of the same bunch getting together to lambaste everyone who doesn't agree with them. But I guess that's what passes for enlightenment these days.No, there really isn't. It's always the Group vs. the Other. Which one you are changes, and the tone varies, but it's all much the same.
I'd say your guess is rather misinformed as well.
Less misinformed than perhaps a little less blinded by my own ego than you.
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I'm a devout follower of the flying spaghetti monster. He's touched my soul with his noodley appendage.
Do you respect my beliefs or no? Follow up: why is your belief system worthy of more respect than mine above?
Respect, Generosity, Kindness and Empathy are virtues, and capital V Virtues. Don't kill, don't steal is laudable, whether it's a tenet of your religion or simply something you try to do.
But when you claim that morals are objective, and I point out that Robertson has used his ministry to endorse assassination with out turning into a pillar of salt, or suffering boils or anything that can be called divine retribution, I've disproven "morality" as evidence of God as an active force in the universe.
I'm sorry if you find that insulting, but it's sort of the topic of the thread.
QUIET DOODLEBUG, THE GROWN-UPS ARE TALKING!! :P
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I'm a devout follower of the flying spaghetti monster. He's touched my soul with his noodley appendage.
Do you respect my beliefs or no? Follow up: why is your belief system worthy of more respect than mine above?
This would be an example of ridiculing someone else's beliefs with smart ass comments.
Hence the term f@*!wad applies.
I still maintain that if I am incorrect, and there is a God, I'm going to punch Him in the face.
I'll philosophize you with a hammer, you French hack.
After I see about what's going on with this mare in Turin.
M'lord Dice says it's not idolatry if I worship him.
Edit: Added a space I left out; also, I'm pretty sure that Worshiphim are the angels who watch over the goblins, whether they live in the kennels or the street.
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Respect, Generosity, Kindness and Empathy are virtues, and capital V Virtues. Don't kill, don't steal is laudable, whether it's a tenet of your religion or simply something you try to do.
But when you claim that morals are objective, and I point out that Robertson has used his ministry to endorse assassination with out turning into a pillar of salt, or suffering boils or anything that can be called divine retribution, I've disproven "morality" as evidence of God as an active force in the universe.
I'm sorry if you find that insulting, but it's sort of the topic of the thread.
QUIET DOODLEBUG, THE GROWN-UPS ARE TALKING!! :P
I never said those Morals are divine. Just said morality doesn't change, what society perceives as moral may.
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I'm a devout follower of the flying spaghetti monster. He's touched my soul with his noodley appendage.
Do you respect my beliefs or no? Follow up: why is your belief system worthy of more respect than mine above?
This would be an example of ridiculing someone else's beliefs with smart ass comments.
Hence the term f@**wad applies.
How so? Replace FSM with Wicca or Buddhism or anything else if that makes it less douchy. You still didn't answer the question. You just called names.
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My apologies, Christians.
I try to be respectful of other people's beliefs, but, the truth is, if I see God, I'm taking a swing. I'd buy Jesus a beer, though.
But if I see a guy claiming to be Buddha by the side of the road taking a siesta under a bodhi tree, I'm going to hit him with my hammer.
I'm not worried about the karma fallout. I'm confident it isn't him.
Don't you look at me that way either, Sartre. I doubt you could even connect on a swing, you cross-eyed croissant.
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How so? Replace FSM with Wicca or Buddhism or anything else if that makes it less douchy. You still didn't answer the question. You just called names.I'm a devout follower of the flying spaghetti monster. He's touched my soul with his noodley appendage.
Do you respect my beliefs or no? Follow up: why is your belief system worthy of more respect than mine above?
This would be an example of ridiculing someone else's beliefs with smart ass comments.
Hence the term f@**wad applies.
Your comment was intended to deride, had you said "I am a devout Buddhist" or "I am a devout Wiccan." Then my answer would have been yes, I would show your beliefs the respect that they deserve as they are very meaningful to you. But instead you chose to deride something that is meaningful to a great number of folks with the whole spaghetti monster b%*+!~$*.
When I went to bed we were having a polite discussion. I wake up and it's a naval linguistics conference.
I wished the linguistics were cunning. I'd be riveted.
I refuse to accept that my bank account it empty. Doesn't mean it's not true though.Just because you don't belive in some "Skygod" doesn't mean it fails to exist. My statement was off of fact and opinion. I have my rights as a living being on this planet, that floats in a cosmic graveyard of rocks, stars, and mystery.No God would give a petty human the knowledge to figure out anything regarding the blueprints for the foundations of the universe. It's an unknown when we die. If it is a faith test as told in the ancient books than death will only be the true teller of the biblical tales. One thing is for sure there is heavy mathematics regarding the universe. As if some architect had mapped it out perfectly.Just because we don't understand it (yet) doesn't mean some super skygod built it. You're entire statement of "fact" presumes that a god exists. Essentially you just said "He exists because he wouldnt do X." I hope the logical fallacy is plain enough.
I thought my bank account was full, but when I arrived it was empty, only to find out it was not empty but emptied only to be filled again.
Don't you look at me that way either, Sartre. I doubt you could even connect on a swing, you cross-eyed croissant.Leave J.P. alone, you bullying power freak, or I'll bean ya with this danish.
I'll show you fear and trembling, Søren. By the time I'm through with you, I'll convert you from being an exist-entialist to an exit-entialist. I have a layer of the abyss well suited for your rhetoric. The only thing agape you'll be writing discourses on is the one that my hammer will leave in your maw. Schweinhund!
Your comment was intended to deride, had you said "I am a devout Buddhist" or "I am a devout Wiccan." Then my answer would have been yes, I would show your beliefs the respect that they deserve as they are very meaningful to you. But instead you chose to deride something that is meaningful to a great number of folks with the whole spaghetti monster b+*!$*%*.How so? Replace FSM with Wicca or Buddhism or anything else if that makes it less douchy. You still didn't answer the question. You just called names.I'm a devout follower of the flying spaghetti monster. He's touched my soul with his noodley appendage.
Do you respect my beliefs or no? Follow up: why is your belief system worthy of more respect than mine above?
This would be an example of ridiculing someone else's beliefs with smart ass comments.
Hence the term f@**wad applies.
True, but who decides which religion is worth of respect and what's not? Jedi is recognized in England. Is that worthy of your respect or had I said I was a Jedi would you assume I was mocking? What if I really was a jedi?
Is The First Church of Atheism respectable or mocking?
Lol. I'm actually an athiest minister. I can marry people legally.
When I went to bed we were having a polite discussion. I wake up and it's a naval linguistics conference.
I think it started last night on the Did You Know... thread. :P
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Is The First Church of Atheism respectable or mocking?
Definitely. Those splitters deserve all they get. They're not proper atheists.
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Two monks came to a river. Standing at the bank was a woman wearing fine silks, she asked them for help across. The older monk picked her up and carried her across. The two monks then continued on their way.
Monks were forbidden to have physical contact with women and the younger monk silently brooded over this infraction for hours on the road until finally he spoke up. "You should not have carried her across the river, we aren't allowed to touch women!"
The older monk responded "I put her down hours ago, why are you still carrying her?"
Beliefs are things we choose to carry. They are not forced upon us, we are not required to have them. Not all beliefs are equal. Someone who still believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth holds a wrong belief. To abandon it would cost them nothing, but would rather free them of their burden allowing their mind to travel more easily.
Two monks came to a river. Standing at the bank was a woman wearing fine silks, she asked them for help across. The older monk picked her up and carried her across. The two monks then continued on their way.
Monks were forbidden to have physical contact with women and the younger monk silently brooded over this infraction for hours on the road until finally he spoke up. "You should not have carried her across the river, we aren't allowed to touch women!"
The older monk responded "I put her down hours ago, why are you still carrying her?"
Beliefs are things we choose to carry. They are not forced upon us, we are not required to have them. Not all beliefs are equal. Someone who still believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth holds a wrong belief. To abandon it would cost them nothing, but would rather free them of their burden allowing their mind to travel more easily.
Content like this is why I enjoy and remain fascinated with Oriental philosophy. This sounds like something Zhuangzi would have said.
Personally, I think it would do some Christians a lot of good to read the works attributed to Zhuangzi and Laozi and then return to reading the Gospels again. One will get a whole new perspective and insight and hopefully change one's lipservicing.
Even the godless types, too.
My atheism takes on a bit of a Zen approach; Oriental philosophy gets a lot of credit for it.
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Two monks came to a river. Standing at the bank was a woman wearing fine silks, she asked them for help across. The older monk picked her up and carried her across. The two monks then continued on their way.
Monks were forbidden to have physical contact with women and the younger monk silently brooded over this infraction for hours on the road until finally he spoke up. "You should not have carried her across the river, we aren't allowed to touch women!"
The older monk responded "I put her down hours ago, why are you still carrying her?"
Beliefs are things we choose to carry. They are not forced upon us, we are not required to have them. Not all beliefs are equal. Someone who still believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth holds a wrong belief. To abandon it would cost them nothing, but would rather free them of their burden allowing their mind to travel more easily.
Any gamer worth their salt would have stopped in the middle of the river, demanded the fine silks as payment, and gone back to town to sell them; obviously not D&D monks.
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Two bulls were standing on top of a hill, looking down at their herd of cattle.
"Hey," said the young bull, "let's run down the hill and ____ one of those cows!"
The older bull said, "No. Let's walk down the hill and ____ 'em all!"
-Gnomish folk tale
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The difference is I'm willing to come right out and tell you what I think of you without trying to hide behind generalities.The difference being you're angry that anyone has a different religion than you.
Who pissed in your cornflakes?
I couldn't care less what faith or lack thereof someone else has, anybody who knows me knows that.
What pisses me off is a complete lack of respect towards other peoples beliefs, regardless of whether they share mine or not.
So you would be equally upset if we showed a complete lack of respect to someone who thought genocide was a-ok? Mind now, I'm not saying that you believe genocide is a-ok. I don't believe it's a-ok either. But this person I'm describing does believe it's a-ok. Are you going to be just as incensed if I don't respect his belief?
Your comment was intended to deride, had you said "I am a secular humanist" or "I am a logical positivist " Then my answer would have been yes, I would show your beliefs the respect that they deserve as they are very meaningful to you. But instead you chose to deride something that is meaningful to a great number of folks with the whole Judeo-christian b*&**@%+.
How are my alterations above, qualitatively different than your original statement? Yes, there are lots of people who believe in christianity, but b&$#%#@! is in the mind of the beholder.
I'll show you fear and trembling, Søren. By the time I'm through with you, I'll convert you from being an exist-entialist to an exit-entialist. I have a layer of the abyss well suited for your rhetoric. The only thing agape you'll be writing discourses on is the one that my hammer will leave in your maw. Schweinhund!My, aren't you just the Übermensch?
You're all bark, schnauzer-boy. You can't swing a dachsund, let alone a hammer. Thor you ain't!
I'll brow beat you with my book; tit for tat. You remind me of meine Schwester, Elizabeth. Hündinnen bekommen Stiche.
Morals, at their core do not change. The same basic morals that held yesteryear will still hold in century.
Oh, and lest I forget. Pat Robertson is a loudmouth f%@*wad who outlived his usefulness the moment he figured out it was easier to polarize a group against their fellow man than to reach out and promote love and unity.
I know another guy who outlived his usefulness, then. Jesus. Look at all this polarization.
This seems to have started a tradition.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
There are many passages like this, of course. One supposes that Jesus and the author of 1 John were terrible Christians.
Okay here goes *sigh*. I am a very hardcore atheist. However I don't find it productive to go onto public forums to try and proselytize others out of their beliefs. Please understand the majority of Christians aren't frothing at the mouth hatemongers EVEN the ones who disagree with homosexuality. A lot of them are perfectly happy to agree to disagree about those points. Also put yourself in their shoes, they believe God is a literal father figure to them, a friend who is always there, someone who gave them hope that all their problems can be solved and that no matter how tough things are it is just temporary and they will get through it even after death. Do you really want to take that from people? Remember the majority of Christians aren't activists just peaceable decent folks, so you are going to do little more than annoy any non atheist by this discussion.
Any recommendations on where to start?
I'd even go further: get everything you can that has been translated by Brian Bruya that was adapted & illustrated by Tsai Chih Chung. It's a great place to start out at the introductory level.
I have them all. I still return to them on occasion when I see something in conversation that would do justice from referencing them for a different perspective.
It's all about the awakening. That's why parables are awesome. The only fault lies in the listener who takes it at literal value.
MM, I left the Catholic church at 16. All I see of Christianity is what is on the news, and here in the forums.
Remembering what the majority is becomes hard when all you see is the minority.
That's because bad or controversial news sells better than good news. Also non controversial non activist Christians wouldn't be on the news or out yelling on a forum either. You have to remember every group has blowhards.
Do you really want to take that from people? Remember the majority of Christians aren't activists just peaceable decent folks, so you are going to do little more than annoy any non atheist by this discussion.
Conversations like this are a response to christian apologetics. As you can see from the first page, christians are 'starting' the conversation with "this is why you should believe that we're right" I don't see how a "this is why you're wrong" response takes anything away from them.
Its graet that you found a a\source of comfort, but that comfort seems to come with a lot of neigh insepperable baggage.
`I'd also rather work on a solution to whats stressing people out than make them feel better about it.
Morals, at their core do not change. The same basic morals that held yesteryear will still hold in century.
Oh, and lest I forget. Pat Robertson is a loudmouth f%@*wad who outlived his usefulness the moment he figured out it was easier to polarize a group against their fellow man than to reach out and promote love and unity.
I know another guy who outlived his usefulness, then. Jesus. Look at all this polarization.
This seems to have started a tradition.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.There are many passages like this, of course. One supposes that Jesus and the author of 1 John were terrible Christians.
How does that make for a terrible Christian? All I read is an acknowledgement that some people deny Jesus and God.
How does that make for a terrible Christian? All I read is an acknowledgement that some people deny Jesus and God.Morals, at their core do not change. The same basic morals that held yesteryear will still hold in century.
Oh, and lest I forget. Pat Robertson is a loudmouth f%@*wad who outlived his usefulness the moment he figured out it was easier to polarize a group against their fellow man than to reach out and promote love and unity.
I know another guy who outlived his usefulness, then. Jesus. Look at all this polarization.
This seems to have started a tradition.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.There are many passages like this, of course. One supposes that Jesus and the author of 1 John were terrible Christians.
That's flatly untrue. They go well beyond that to proclaim that if one isn't a Christian one is literally evil, the antithesis of all good.
Or did the antichrist suddenly become a heroic figure in Christian myth when I wasn't looking?
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Any recommendations on where to start?
For me, the big influence was having very mild introduction to Zen and being obsessed with H2G2.
I've had a copy of this book with me for about 16 years now. For a western beginner, it's a good introduction because it pulls from a lot of western sources, Twain, Emerson, Wilde, etc.
I would guess that you specifically might be well suited to a Zen mind. At least online, you seem comfortable with contradiction and dichotomy, which are the primary tools used to broaden thought.
Some of the cool things about Zen, IMO, is that it can help teach you how to see the opposite or recognize things by their absence. Another parable/koan to illustrate:
A new monastery was being finished and the headmaster was responsible for picking a monk to send to be the new headmaster. To make his selection, he posed a problem. He placed a jar of water on the ground and challenged his students to name it, without saying its name.
A senior monk came forward and said "No one can call it a window." The headmaster nodded. Then the cook stepped forward. He walked up to the jug and tipped it over with his foot.
The cook was sent to oversee the new monastery.
Okay here goes *sigh*. I am a very hardcore atheist. However I don't find it productive to go onto public forums to try and proselytize others out of their beliefs. Please understand the majority of Christians aren't frothing at the mouth hatemongers EVEN the ones who disagree with homosexuality.
I'm sorry but that's simply not true. The only difference between Fred Phelps and someone who votes the same way is the press coverage. So unless by "disagree with homosexuality" you mean they just aren't interested in going out on a date with me, which stretches the words almost beyond recognition, you're flat wrong.
Also put yourself in their shoes, they believe God is a literal father figure to them, a friend who is always there, someone who gave them hope that all their problems can be solved and that no matter how tough things are it is just temporary and they will get through it even after death. Do you really want to take that from people?
Yes, to be honest. But even if I didn't, it's irrelevant. I'd have exactly the same attitude towards a geocentrist. People are going to over-invest in mistaken positions all the time and it's going to cause them all kinds of angst to find out they're wrong. Who cares?
[...] contradiction and dichotomy, which are the primary tools used to broaden thought.
Some of the cool things about Zen, IMO, is that it can help teach you how to see the opposite or recognize things by their absence.
Pretty much this. Which is why I refuse to take political sides and vote party lines as I'm steadfastly an Independent.
I'm not religious, but I get annoyed at times when those who are atheist in surface branding resort to the same tactics they castigate the theist minded folks for doing.
There is much to be sought in emptiness. You just need to first get out of the cave, but be careful to not be blinded by the sun.
Just checkin' some monster stats before tonight's game.
Saw many hee hees! in here and would like to welcome Invisible Kierkegaard to the Trolling Philosopher's Club!
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Okay here goes *sigh*. I am a very hardcore atheist. However I don't find it productive to go onto public forums to try and proselytize others out of their beliefs. Please understand the majority of Christians aren't frothing at the mouth hatemongers EVEN the ones who disagree with homosexuality.I'm sorry but that's simply not true. The only difference between Fred Phelps and someone who votes the same way is the press coverage. So unless by "disagree with homosexuality" you mean they just aren't interested in going out on a date with me, which stretches the words almost beyond recognition, you're flat wrong.
Yes, to be honest. But even if I didn't, it's irrelevant. I'd have exactly the same attitude towards a geocentrist. People are going to over-invest in mistaken positions all the time and it's going to cause them all kinds of angst to find out they're wrong. Who cares?
Also put yourself in their shoes, they believe God is a literal father figure to them, a friend who is always there, someone who gave them hope that all their problems can be solved and that no matter how tough things are it is just temporary and they will get through it even after death. Do you really want to take that from people?
The irony here is that we have two gay male atheists arguing semantics.
Schism lurks in essentially every precipice.
Organized atheism has a long way yet to go. Because in its nascent stages, it's contradictory and models itself after its perceived opposition and feeds upon its carcass from within.
Luther laughs. Satan's misunderstood. And Mani is playing parlor tricks. Peter does awesome handstands. And good ole Hitch is getting plowed with a fifth of stiff Brandy. The drink, too.
Thanks guys. I'd say I look forward to being a Zen master, but I already am, am I not? :)
That depends. When the prostitute asked you where's the change after you committed the deed, did you tell her it came from within?
The question is whether she thought you sieved the condom.
;-)