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I haven't seen anyone's take on Jafar from Aladdin yet so I thought I'd stat him out.
Jafar
Male Human Sorcerer 16 (Arcane Bloodline)
LE Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +16 (+20 with Iago)
Defense
AC 21, touch 15, flat-footed 19
(+4 armor, +3 deflection, +2 Dex, + 2 natural)
hp 84 (16d6+32)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +12
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 dagger +9 (1d4/19-20)
Spells Known (Caster Level 16th; concentration +21)
8th (3/day) -- polymorph any object (DC 26)
7th (4/day) -- greater teleport, instant summons, limited wish
6th (5/day) -- contingency, disintegrate (DC 24), ice crystal teleport (DC 21), legend lore, true seeing
5th (6/day) -- baleful polymorph (DC 23), beast shape III, dominate person (DC 20), overland flight, telekinesis (DC 23)
4th (6/day) -- dimension door, locate creature, minor creation, resilient sphere (DC 19), scrying (DC 19), wall of fire
3rd (6/day) -- dispel magic, hold person (DC 18), suggestion (DC 18), tongues, wind wall
2nd (6/day) -- bull’s strength, fire breath (DC 17), invisibility, resist energy, scorching ray, touch of idiocy
1st (6/day) -- burning hands (DC 16), identify, mage armor, obscuring mist, unseen servant, vocal alteration (DC 19)
0 (at will)-- dancing lights, daze (DC 15), detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound (DC 15), mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue (DC 15)
Statistics
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 20
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 27
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Alertness (from Iago), Arcane Blast, Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Toughness, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Still Spell
Skills Bluff +24, Disguise +21, Perception +16 (+20 with Iago), Spellcraft +20
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ Arcane Bond (familiar), Human Traits, Metamagic Adept (4/day), New Arcana (Ice Crystal Teleport, Locate Creature), School Power (Transmutation)
Combat Gear amulet of natural armor +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +3, potions of cure serious wounds [4]
Other Gear +1 dagger, staff of charming, contingency focus, scrying focus, limited wish materials (2), other possessions, parrot familiar (Iago)
Iago
N Tiny Magical Beast
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +27
Defense
AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 20
(+2 Dex, +8 natural, +2 size)
hp 42
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +12
SR 21
Offense
Speed 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee bite +12 (1d3-4)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Statistics
Str 2, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +8; CMD 14
Feats Skill Focus (Perceptiont), Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +11, Disguise +11, Fly +5, Perception +27, Spellcraft +17
Languages Common
SQ Alertness (to master), improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, spell resistance, scry on familiar
I did quite a few Disney conversions here.
Nice, Kain, but how did you go about stating these conversions? Your Jafar doesn't have any class levels and his ability scores look fairly high; did you stat him as a monster or something?
You're absolutely right, Mergy. Deciding what level to make a character is probably the most difficult part. I used another sorcerer as a template for Jafar and chose to leave the level that high.
Beast shape II only allows up to large animals; in the movie, Jafar turns into maybe a gargantuan snake. I thought huge would be close enough. I could see dialing him down to maybe 11th level so he could still have both beast shape III and baleful polymorph but be a bit more in line with the movie.
I really wanted to give him a staff of enchantment as an arcane bond, but I felt Iago was more important.
Beast shape II only allows up to large animals; in the movie, Jafar turns into maybe a gargantuan snake. I thought huge would be close enough. I could see dialing him down to maybe 11th level so he could still have both beast shape III and baleful polymorph but be a bit more in line with the movie.I really wanted to give him a staff of enchantment as an arcane bond, but I felt Iago was more important.
Huge can be anywhere from 20 to 40ft in height, and most likely more in the case of length.
I did quite a few Disney conversions here.
That...that doesn't seem to follow any rules I'm familiar with...
Where are the spell-like abilities coming from? I don't see anything resembling a class level (which is kind of required as humans don't have racial hit dice).
That...that doesn't seem to follow any rules I'm familiar with...I did quite a few Disney conversions here.
Yeah, I've checked that site out. I was under the impression that they follow their own set of rules for the most part.
I do, for most d20 inspired stats. I use HD and simply assign whatever abilities reflect those of the character in question rather than try to shoehorn them into a class. The Disney ones use exactly the same ruleset as PF. If you can run a pit fiend, you can run Jafar.
So I redid Jafar at 11th level, but there is no way he could afford any kind of staff at that level. His staff was kind of a big deal in the movie, so I'd like to have something at least similar in this conversion. Any ideas?
Huge can be anywhere from 20 to 40ft in height, and most likely more in the case of length.
I'm sorry, what are you suggesting? Do you think beast shape III is about right or not?
I use HD and simply assign whatever abilities reflect those of the character in question rather than try to shoehorn them into a class. The Disney ones use exactly the same ruleset as PF. If you can run a pit fiend, you can run Jafar.
While that's all well and good, I think it's more fun to consider what classes and abilities these conversions would have within the Pathfinder system.
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I do, for most d20 inspired stats. I use HD and simply assign whatever abilities reflect those of the character in question rather than try to shoehorn them into a class. The Disney ones use exactly the same ruleset as PF. If you can run a pit fiend, you can run Jafar.
Kain, you've just nearly convinced me that NPCs should use different rules than PCs. I will have to ponder this some more.
That was one of the things about 4E that I loathed--that you could have dragonborn NPCs that had wings and could fly but PC dragonborns could never have the same.
I understand that monsters will need certain rules for themselves, but a classed PC of a given race should potentially be able to do anything that a classed NPC of the same race and class can do and vice versa. I'll not likely play a game that doesn't strive for that on some level, as it totally breaks verisimilitude for me.
Should they be able to do anything an unclassed NPC can do, RD?
Assuming they are not dramatically different (a core race versus a monster), than quite simply, yes. Anything that is within reach of an NPC in the gaming world, should potentially also be within reach of a PC character within the gaming world, period.
Otherwise, I just can't relate as it doesn't reflect reality at all (don't laugh, I know it's a fantasy game). Not everyone in the world can be an Einstein or Schwarzenegger, but everyone in the world has the potential to be.
Here's the thing though. I completely respect what Leaping Gnome enjoys doing, and in fact, have done similarly (my Riptor from Killer Instinct in that same forum is done purely by the rules, savage fighter on top of a raptor).
However, d20 stats aren't simply gaming tools. That was their intent, but they can be utilized in other ways. In this case, it is similar to painting a picture. Rather than create 'Disney d20' or 'Mortal Kombat d20' with new classes, spells, abilities and whatnot that more perfectly capture the concept, I simply write in what they need. It is more of a snapshot of who a character is/what they did than a gaming tool. That said, it functions perfectly well within an actual game.
There are other NPCs who have always best functioned being built from HD rather than specific class levels. Demon lords and archdevils come immediately to mind. Given that players don't need to see "Sorcerer 16" on a character anymore than they need to see "Humanoid 14" who happens to use a sorcerer's bab and Will save, I don't see what the big deal is.
What I didn't care for about 4e (in this instance) is that those statblocks didn't really show me the same things as a d20 statblock did. It was like using a different medium to paint in that one doesn't care for...functional, but not the sort of art I wanted to create.
I get what RD is complaining about...it is irksome to see a dragonborn that can do things you can't do even if you are a dragonborn. But the fact is, if you are encountering Jafar from Disney in your game...you aren't going to be able to do what Jafar does. He's unique, and he's the villain, so he's going to have all sorts of special stuff that you do not. See above, where Gnome feels compelled to stick within NPC/PC limits for his gear, or choose between the iconic staff and the iconic familiar. That's not an issue when you're just painting a d20 picture of Jafar.
So any PC Ninja should be able to learn the NPC Ninja's bone-shaping technique?
If they jumped through the same hoops to learn the technique, than yes.
Here's the thing though. I completely respect what Leaping Gnome enjoys doing, and in fact, have done similarly (my Riptor from Killer Instinct in that same forum is done purely by the rules, savage fighter on top of a raptor).
However, d20 stats aren't simply gaming tools. That was their intent, but they can be utilized in other ways. In this case, it is similar to painting a picture. Rather than create 'Disney d20' or 'Mortal Kombat d20' with new classes, spells, abilities and whatnot that more perfectly capture the concept, I simply write in what they need. It is more of a snapshot of who a character is/what they did than a gaming tool. That said, it functions perfectly well within an actual game.
There are other NPCs who have always best functioned being built from HD rather than specific class levels. Demon lords and archdevils come immediately to mind. Given that players don't need to see "Sorcerer 16" on a character anymore than they need to see "Humanoid 14" who happens to use a sorcerer's bab and Will save, I don't see what the big deal is.
What I didn't care for about 4e (in this instance) is that those statblocks didn't really show me the same things as a d20 statblock did. It was like using a different medium to paint in that one doesn't care for...functional, but not the sort of art I wanted to create.
I get what RD is complaining about...it is irksome to see a dragonborn that can do things you can't do even if you are a dragonborn. But the fact is, if you are encountering Jafar from Disney in your game...you aren't going to be able to do what Jafar does. He's unique, and he's the villain, so he's going to have all sorts of special stuff that you do not. See above, where Gnome feels compelled to stick within NPC/PC limits for his gear, or choose between the iconic staff and the iconic familiar. That's not an issue when you're just painting a d20 picture of Jafar.
I've always thought comic book characters should be built like monsters.
They usually have specific abilities only, like many monsters do. The common problems I see when people try to make those characters is that they either slap classes on them, over complicate them, and/or try to represent every single thing that the character does and lose sight of the abstract nature of the system (i.e. just because someone caught an arrow mid-flight with their hand once or twice shouldn't always mean they have snatch arrows imo).
What if the technique required you to be a part of a specific family bloodline? The PC can't just change his family you know.
Such as sorcerer bloodlines? That's what the eldritch heritage feats are for! :P
Turns out you were a relative all along and just didn't know it. ;)
No, I'm talking about Kimimaro's bloodline limit technique from Naruto. It's limited to a single family and not available to anyone outside it. It is definitely not a sorcerer bloodline or it wouldn't be so rare.
So make it an incredibly rare prestige class with the prerequisite "must be a member of the Kimimaro bloodline." Such classes have existed before. Though I don't recall their name, there was just such a prestige class in v3.5 Forgotten Realms for an anti-arcane magic family of psychos.
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Here's the thing though. I completely respect what Leaping Gnome enjoys doing, and in fact, have done similarly (my Riptor from Killer Instinct in that same forum is done purely by the rules, savage fighter on top of a raptor).
However, d20 stats aren't simply gaming tools. That was their intent, but they can be utilized in other ways. In this case, it is similar to painting a picture. Rather than create 'Disney d20' or 'Mortal Kombat d20' with new classes, spells, abilities and whatnot that more perfectly capture the concept, I simply write in what they need. It is more of a snapshot of who a character is/what they did than a gaming tool. That said, it functions perfectly well within an actual game.
There are other NPCs who have always best functioned being built from HD rather than specific class levels. Demon lords and archdevils come immediately to mind. Given that players don't need to see "Sorcerer 16" on a character anymore than they need to see "Humanoid 14" who happens to use a sorcerer's bab and Will save, I don't see what the big deal is.
That's all very well and good, and I'm sure that offers a lot of flexibility with your creations, but when I come up with something I pretend as though I were writing for RPG Superstar (without the word limits and deadlines). Very specific rules must be followed and there is no opportunity to just make up abilities, unless you are designing something specific (such as an archetype, monster, or prestige class).
I'm sure your way works great, but it's not how Pathfinder developers do things. Maybe they should, but they don't.
That's a valid restriction, but inside home campaigns it is no better or worse than just arbitrarily writing out stats that accomplish what you want the monster to do. If the players find out, they might be upset, but players shouldn't be looking at campaign notes anyway.
Well, monsters don't follow the rules of the game like player characters do.
Yeah, I completely disagree with you there, Leaping Gnome.
Statting up "Jafar as he appears in the movie" is a completely different thing than statting up "As close an approximation as you can get to Jafar using the Pathfinder ruleset."
There is no mutual exclusivity. I stat up hundreds if not thousands of 'by the rules' stats for my Pathfinder game. Statting up Jafar using HD and the abilities he displayed on screen hasn't seemed to adversely impact my ability to do so.
And yes. It does give me a great deal of flexibility when I use abilities and HD, rather than employing classes that were made to represent a balanced fantasy PC rather than paint a Disney villain using a statblock.
One can enjoy beef and mutton, you know.
Huge can be anywhere from 20 to 40ft in height, and most likely more in the case of length.I'm sorry, what are you suggesting? Do you think beast shape III is about right or not?
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you responded. It's up to you, I don't know the exact size the snake is, really. Beast III shape is most likely good enough.
Here's an example of a gargantuan monster compared to an average sized humanoid
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/tzitzimitl
So, that's why I was thinking gargantuan might be a little overkill
Also, are we serious about classes and rules? I just relooked at the stats, something I hadn't done in years. Jafar is 14th level and has spells, HD, saves, skills, feats and BaB exactly like a 14th level sorcerer does. Are we seriously so far gone that we can't imagine a sorcerer without a bloodline?
I was thinking I'd done them more like the Heroes d20 stats from the way you guys were reacting.
Peter Pan, rogue (even has a rogue talent). Aladdin, scout (from CAdv). Jafar the Most Powerful Sorcerer, sorcerer with no bloodline. Simba, lion. C'mon.
Why bother with a prestige class when you can just make it a racial ability? We don't make trolls take a prestige class to get regeneration.
What exactly is the difference between giving an NPC racial hit dice and giving them a prestige class?
Because it's not a racial ability. perhaps? A racial ability is something inherent to all members of a given race.
The example family bloodline above is EXTREMELY specific, which better fits the model of many existing prestige classes, not races.
I'm not saying you HAVE to do it that way, it's just the method that would make most sense to me.
Yeah, I completely disagree with you there, Leaping Gnome.
Statting up "Jafar as he appears in the movie" is a completely different thing than statting up "As close an approximation as you can get to Jafar using the Pathfinder ruleset."
There is no mutual exclusivity. I stat up hundreds if not thousands of 'by the rules' stats for my Pathfinder game. Statting up Jafar using HD and the abilities he displayed on screen hasn't seemed to adversely impact my ability to do so.
And yes. It does give me a great deal of flexibility when I use abilities and HD, rather than employing classes that were made to represent a balanced fantasy PC rather than paint a Disney villain using a statblock.
One can enjoy beef and mutton, you know.
You're welcome to disagree, but I stand by my assessment that the guys at Paizo don't do things your way. I have never seen a humanoid [human] with racial hit dice in any Pathfinder product. If it was unclear that my conversion tries to follow the Pathfinder system as best it can, then I apologize.
Also, are we serious about classes and rules? I just relooked at the stats, something I hadn't done in years. Jafar is 14th level and has spells, HD, saves, skills, feats and BaB exactly like a 14th level sorcerer does. Are we seriously so far gone that we can't imagine a sorcerer without a bloodline?
I was thinking I'd done them more like the Heroes d20 stats from the way you guys were reacting.
Peter Pan, rogue (even has a rogue talent). Aladdin, scout (from CAdv). Jafar the Most Powerful Sorcerer, sorcerer with no bloodline. Simba, lion. C'mon.
Well... it's kind of clear that Jafar has some-kind of arcane bond (Iago or staff), which would suggest arcane bloodline. (Of course, they did have familiars in 3.5.)
While your statistics might be close, you gave him gear that's waaaaaay too powerful for a 14th level character; I calculate 125,000gp in gear (assuming the +5 staff is just a +5 quarterstaff) when an NPC at his level should only have around 34,800. That would throw the balance off big time, especially when the PCs got their hands on that gear.
Also, how would you go about determining CRs for your conversions?
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The guys at Paizo do things 'my way' every time they stat up a unique devil or demon lord.
The thing you bring up about gear is a perfect point to illustrate the difference between doing 'Jafar as seen in Aladdin' and doing 'Jafar as seen in my campaign, whom the PCs will encounter and fight.' Gear balance is only a thing if you are concerned about treasure acquisition.
Also, it is not 'clear Jafar has some kind of arcane bond'. This is an important thing. Nothing in the movies suggests he was able to use the staff to cast one of his spells known once per day. Nothing suggests Iago was his familiar (and his survival after betraying Jafar strongly would support that.)
Why? Because Disney in 1992 wasn't thinking about arcane bonds when they did Jafar, and Paizo in 2008 wasn't thinking about Jafar when they did the sorcerer class.
Now, if you had to use the classes in Paizo, I think it is absolutely brilliant to envision Iago as Jafar's familiar the way you did. And if you want to just make Iago a trained sentient bird, making that bond with his staff works just as well.
However, Jafar has his powers from Genie's magic. He didn't have real magic before then, just tricks. If you were shackled to the ruleset, you would need to show what Jafar was using for class levels before he got his magic. Presumably expert or aristocrat, though that sort of makes it awkward to explain away his higher BaB or weapon/armor proficiencies.
And then you'll have to explain how a wish spell could give class levels. I mean, that's probably a wish that you'd never grant in game.
So as you can see, different approaches for different goals. I just wanted to paint Jafar from the movie. You want an NPC usable in a real campaign who can closely adhere to what Jafar did. I think you did a great job with it too, even if he doesn't use quite all of those spells that he has. They make sense that he could have had them.
As for CR, I eyeballed all of them at the time. If I was redoing them, I'd go over them and see how they match up with Paizo's CR guidelines.
Looking at Jafar the Vizier, we have low hp, low AC, low damage, low saves, and a slightly high DC for his special abilities. I seem to have overrated him quite a bit, I'd probably drop him down to CR 1.
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Yeah, in the beginning, Jafar had what seemed to be a relatively minor magical staff and a few parlor tricks up his sleeves...
I can see him not being a "classed Sorcerer" (and remaining a non-spell-casting NPC class) after the wish, because his magic at that point came from “genie magic"...
So having him as a unique human with innate "sorcerer-like" magical abilities makes sense to me...
An aristocrat with use magic device, several esoteric knowledge skills, and a magic staff, perhaps?
The guys at Paizo do things 'my way' every time they stat up a unique devil or demon lord.
That's specifically for monsters though, and they follow their own rules to get there.
I think you are mistaking my argument; I am not saying you are wrong, or that your conversions are inappropriate; I'm saying that when Paizo makes up an enemy that is a "base race" they treat it differently than when they make a new monster entirely, and follow the rules from the Core Rulebook. I'm just trying to follow those guidelines.
And you're right, it would be difficult to replicate a Disney movie within the Pathfinder system.
Gear balance is only a thing if you are concerned about treasure acquisition.
What PC isn't concerned about treasure acquisition?
Also, it is not 'clear Jafar has some kind of arcane bond'. This is an important thing. Nothing in the movies suggests he was able to use the staff to cast one of his spells known once per day. Nothing suggests Iago was his familiar (and his survival after betraying Jafar strongly would support that.)
By that argument there is nothing that suggests his staff is a +5 weapon or that he has a ring of protection +5 or anything like that.
I imagine you gave him that gear just to get his stats close to the monster statistics by CR table from the Bestiary, which I'd honestly say is the best reason to do things your way for NPCs in general; it's incredibly difficult to get stats like that for creatures with class levels (granted, I tend to add caster classes).
However, Jafar has his powers from Genie's magic. He didn't have real magic before then, just tricks. If you were shackled to the ruleset, you would need to show what Jafar was using for class levels before he got his magic. Presumably expert or aristocrat, though that sort of makes it awkward to explain away his higher BaB or weapon/armor proficiencies.
And then you'll have to explain how a wish spell could give class levels. I mean, that's probably a wish that you'd never grant in game.
That all becomes plot/DM territory; sort of a "you need the blue key to open this door" situation.
The wish spell does say it can be used for greater effects than the usual list, "at the GM's discretion" so I wouldn't have any problem letting a DM use it to propel the plot. But no, I wouldn't let a PC use it to become the most powerful sorcerer in all the land. Or maybe I would, so long as that made him a level 2 adapt goblin.
Obviously it's not an exact fit, but then that's the problem with trying to give movie/book characters game stats that were created/written without any game in mind...
Yeah, that seems to be the conclusion I'm coming to. But it's still fun.
What PC isn't concerned about treasure acquisition?
Oh, plenty of us!
Really? In this game?
Wow.
Huh.
I've always thought it was a significant flaw of d20 systems that they are so reliant on gear. It's built into a character's CR after all.
I'm not sure how the game would even work without the magic gear and arbitrary economy.
If anyone has some low gear Pathfinder sources, let me know.
The thing you bring up about gear is a perfect point to illustrate the difference between doing 'Jafar as seen in Aladdin' and doing 'Jafar as seen in my campaign, whom the PCs will encounter and fight.'
Yeah, I wouldn't really do either one. I might start with an idea -- "I want a magic-using villain kind of like Jafar," but would quickly diverge from there.
And I always follow the rules when I stat a villain -- not that I think it's "better" that way, but because it offends my sense of craft not to. Anybody can just throw some arbitrary stats down for what they want and call it good; but it takes some level of skill and creativity in order to do that while staying within an existing set of rules. (Granted, I wrote most of the rules I use, but still...)
The thing you bring up about gear is a perfect point to illustrate the difference between doing 'Jafar as seen in Aladdin' and doing 'Jafar as seen in my campaign, whom the PCs will encounter and fight.'Yeah, I wouldn't really do either one. I might start with an idea -- "I want a magic-using villain kind of like Jafar," but would quickly diverge from there.
And I always follow the rules when I stat a villain -- not that I think it's "better" that way, but because it offends my sense of craft not to. Anybody can just throw some arbitrary stats down for what they want and call it good; but it takes some level of skill and creativity in order to do that while staying within an existing set of rules. (Granted, I wrote most of the rules I use, but still...)
You follow your own rules when writing up a statblock. Exactly as I did with Jafar. There is no divergence from the core rules of d20. He has good saves with a base progression of 2+1/2HD, bad saves with a progression of 1/3 HD, a poor BaB that equates to 1/2 HD, skills equal to 2+Int, gains 1 + 1/2 level in feats, etc etc. When he gains his sorcery spells from Genie, he has 7th level high spells, just as a 14th level sorcerer in Pathfinder. He has the same number of spells as a 14th level sorcerer and uses Intelligence as his casting stat, etc. (Suppose that makes him a sage sorcerer in PF)
You follow your own rules when writing up a statblock. Exactly as I did with Jafar.
Sure; I'd cite my sources (e.g., "Male human sage sorcerer 14; Ultimate Magic"), rather than pretend he's a unique un-buildable monster, but otherwise the approach is quite similar. Here's where we diverge:
I might start with an idea -- "I want a magic-using villain kind of like Jafar," but would quickly diverge from there.
Overall, I have absolutely zero interest in straight retro-cloning a Disney character for D&D.