Does the dodge bonus from Offensive Defense apply to the attacls by the target who took the sneak attack damage or to any attacks made that round?
Would Crippling Strike apply multiple times when used with Hunter's Surprise? Would all of the sneak attack add-ons?
Can someone explain how reach works with flanking? Does it at all, can you flank a foe by simply threatening an his space or do you actually have to occupy an adjacent square yourself?
The dodge bonus from offensive defensive last for one round which is just before the rogue's next turn.
All the sneak attack add-ons would work just as they would even if the rogue was flanking.
You do not need to be adjacent to someone to flank them. You just have to threaten them.
Thanks for providing links. :)
The dodge bonus from offensive defensive last for one round which is just before the rogue's next turn.
I got that. Would the defensive bonus be against any attacks made in that time frame or just the attacks made by the victim of your sneak attack? There seems to be some confusion...
All the sneak attack add-ons would work just as they would even if the rogue was flanking.
I got that. The question I'm trying to find out is if they would apply multiple times in the same round, i.e. if you used Hunter's Surprise to attack a foe 3 times and apply Sneak Attack damage all three times, would you be able to use Crippling Strike to reduce the target's strength by -6 instead of -2, could you get multiple, stackable dodge bonuses from Offensive Defense and so on?
You do not need to be adjacent to someone to flank them. You just have to threaten them.
Thanks :)
OD does not specify that it is against one opponent so it should apply against everyone.
As for Crippling Strike RAW it activates every time you land a sneak attack, and since it is ability damage, and not a penalty it should stack so 3 hits should be a -6.
OD does not specify that it is against one opponent so it should apply against everyone.
It does and it doesn't. The link that I showed you certainly lends itself to that interpretation, but then on the Rogue Talent list it does, so I'm not sure which version takes precedence...
Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?
There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.
Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.
So currently your guess is as good as thiers but they are leaning towards: it does not stack with itself and it applies only to the creature you sneak attack.
- Gauss
Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?
There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.
Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.
So currently your guess is as good as thiers but they are leaning towards: it does not stack with itself and it applies only to the creature you sneak attack.
- Gauss
Thank you very much for digging that up...
Of course that 'ruling' then begs the question, what about other sneak attack add-on's like Crippling Strike mentioned above. It seems to suggest that they don't want those add-on's to stack (I can't believe that Offensive Defense would be singled out), even though none of them state that that might be the case.
Why wouldn't they stack? They are completely different effects that do not require the sacrifice of your sneak attack dice. (There are other sneak attack effects that reduce or eliminate the sneak attack dice in order to be effective.) The reason they might not want the dodge bonus to stack with itself is because a rogue would become impossible to hit if they did that. A 9th level rogue has 5d6 sneak attack. If that rogue has 4 attacks (with TWF that is easily possible) his AC goes up by up to 20.
From what I read you have the following:
1/day you may activate Hunter's Surprise. This qualifies you to sneak attack when you would normally not (such as not flanking).
While Sneak attacking you reduce the opponents strength by 2 from your sneak attack. Since this is damage (and it does not say that it does not stack) it stacks with itself.
While sneak attacking you gain a dodge bonus (equal to the number of sneak attack dice) against the target you sneak attack. This does not stack with itself.
All three effects can be used simultaneously. Frankly, Hunter's Surprise isnt that great as the rogue in my group has sneak attack most of the time via the feat Gang Up. The cleric in the group has a long spear, the paladin a greatsword, so most of the time the rogue qualifies as flanking.
- Gauss
Edit: corrected my statement regarding strength damage.
Correction:
Crippling strike is ability damage -- which is why it stacks with itself -- it is damage. If it was a penalty then it probably wouldn't stack with itself.
Good find Gauss. It did not make sense to me that attacking person A makes you good at dodging person B, but the ability did not read as if it made a difference.
Abraham, you are correct. My apologies for the lack of precision.
- Gauss
Why wouldn't they stack?
What I meant was that if they didn't want one individual 'add-on' stacking with itself then they might not want any of the individual add-ons stacking with themselves...
Damage 'stacks' with itself unless specifically stated otherwise. There is nothing I can find that limits Crippling Strike.
- Gauss
Why wouldn't they stack?What I meant was that if they didn't want one individual 'add-on' stacking with itself then they might not want any of the individual add-ons stacking with themselves...
By the general rules ability damage stacks so unless other wise stated it will still work that way.
All three effects can be used simultaneously.
I do not agree with this. Both Offensive Defense and Crippling Strike are both asterisk marked sneak attack effects.
Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.
So those two affects cannot be applied to the same attack as I read them. Of course they can be applied to two different attacks in the same round.
Ooops, my bad on that. I didn't check that list. I was just going by the descriptions. LOL
- Gauss