We aren't complaining about the Rogue because this is a Fighter thread...and at least Rogues get Slippery Mind as an option.
And the skills guy got more hammered in 3.5 then the feat guy. Just look at the capstone for the Rogue vs the ninja.
And psion trait and Iron will are non-fighter, non-combat feats. Ergo, not specific to fighters, fighters can't use class abilities to shore up that weakness at all.
The barbarian, on the other hand, has both rage and superstitious to up his saves, and they are class abilities...and hugely useful ones, too.
I mean, come on, the barb gets Tumble as a class skill, where the Fighter, ideally the class most focused on self-training, does NOT. WTH.
Just so many examples of Fighters Don't Get Nice Things, And Let's Not Talk About The Rogue.
==Aelryinth
I'm experimenting with some new rules. No class skill lists. Yep, the fighter or barb, or wizard can take whatever they want. We all know the skill list doesn't fit for all the concepts we want to make (the court guard who doesn't have sense motive on his skill list by default, the caravan watching swordsman without perception on his skill list) so I just stopped that entirely. Players can take the skills they want and put what they want where they want and can afford. Not everyone has the same skill list so far in trying out this change. No +3 for class skill, instead skills as 3.5 but with no cross class skills. So can put ranks in to your level +3.
I stuck with the perception skill, and the stealth skill but I broke arcrobatics into jump, tumble and balance. So everyone can take what they want (wizards can take tumble, yayyy), but being brilliant at those three things is not given through one. They are close at times sure, but I've come to dislike them being one, tumbling and rolling is not the same as leaping a great jump.
Linguistics I broke into decipher script+another language, and forgery, which is separate.
QUoting Shallowsoul:
The fighter can't have everything.
RE: You're Right. The fighter never gets any MAGIC OR SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES...unlike EVERY OTHER CLASS. Even Rogues.
Do you truly understand that?
RE: Yeah, I do. You don't seem to.
Traits are a part of character creation so there is nothing wrong with using that to help fill in anything that may need a little help. What you are asking is that the fighter class have everything built into it and that's not going to happen.
RE: I am asking nothing of the kind. But relying on things that are not part of the Fighter class to say the Fighter class is awesome is clearly dysfunctional.
There are a lot of things that are non-class abilities, traits, items etc that classes use to give themselves an advantage and the fighter is no different nor should you give it any flak for doing so. The reason I used the rogue is because it has weak Will saves as well but you can't hold that against the class nor can you the fighter. The Wizard has weak Fortitude and reflex saves so where's the uproar about that?
RE: As has been noted, the Wizard has MAGIC. And using class abilities can cover his weaknesses with those.
Who gives a rip about Tumble? A fighter is usually a heavily armored class so tumble doesn't fit with the concept. There is actually nothing stopping you from making a dex based fighter and putting points in Tumble. All you will be missing is a +3 so it's not big deal. It's not about the height of your score but whether or not you are able to hit those DC's with no problem and I can promise you that a +3 is not going make you or break you on that Tumble DC. Also with Tumble, the fighter would actually be really good at it because he would be able to wear his armor and still be able to Tumble great because of the lack of armor check penalty that he would have. Sure the barbarian may get tumble but if he's wearing armor then he will be getting a minus so it actually evens out.
RE:IF it's not a big deal then the Fighter should have Tumble. Acrobatics are a highly civilized art form, it takes tremendous discipline to be a good acrobat. Why does the Barb have it?
Ergo, it must be a big deal, because the Fighter doesn't.
And armor penalties with Mithral are basically 0, when did you ever see a barb in anything heavier then a Mithral BP?
Let's also talk about all the nice things the fighter does get. Some of you seem to conveniently turn a blind all to all the nice things the fighter does get. He has one of the best ACs in the game, he has some of the best to hit in the game, he can auto crit at high levels, he is arguably the best switch hitter in the game, he gets to lose the armor check penalties, he can move full speed in armor, he does continuous damage, the class is capable of handling almost any feat tree, he can swap out feats, he gets a crap ton of feats, etc.....
RE: He gets a good AC if he has the stats to take advantage of it. But every class can get a good AC, you know? Unlike the monk, which automatically gets an AC bonus as they level, the Fighter actually has to invest in massive stats to take advantage of his own class abilities.
The other classes can avoid armor check penalties with Mithral.
A barb moves faster then a fighter can ever do in a Mithral BP. Any other class moves at the same speed.
Every other melee class does 'continuous damage'.
Capable of handling a lot of feat trees which he cannot take is ultimately rather meaningless. Can he handle the Empower-Maximize feat tree?
He can swap out feats 1/4 levels, one feat. A spellcaster can swap out all his spells every day. Only the Rogue and Barb sucketh more in terms of this kind of variance and shifting of capability...and the Barb tends to have more broad utility. Them dem skill points and list and rage powers.
The Fighter gets ten feats which butt head to head with the class abilties of other classes, which often mechanically work out to be almost twice as powerful as a feat. So he gets a bunch of half-strength abilities to their full strength abilities. And unlike most of them, he has to actually QUALIFY TO USE his own class bonus feats. Rich.
Talking about auto confirm crits at 19+ ignores level 1-18.
The Ranger is arguably a better switch hitter, but the Fighter does okay. Unlike the Fighter, the Ranger does get the same bonus with every weapon.
Stop moving the goalposts every time someone debunks your argument with regards to certain things about the fighter. You whine about Will saves, someone shows you that you can bump their will saves then you move those posts to try and justify your argument. I honestly don't think some of you want to proven wrong about the fighter because every time someone does you go on to something else. Who cares if traits don't belong to the actual fighter class? Seriously, who cares?
Then don't talk about the fighter class being awesome because something outside the class almost makes up for a key weakness. It's not a trait of the fighter class. And it pigeonholes every fighter if you MUST take those specific things to cover this glaring weakness, which is exactly the opposite of what the fighter should have.
I mean you and others present arguments as to why you think the fighter isn't good, then people like Bob Loblaw present you with builds that prove you wrong and then you come back with, "Well that race isn't a fighter trait" or "That trait isn't exclusive to fighters" or "You shouldn't have to give up this ability for that one when taking an archtype."
Bob won't argue with anything of what I've said above, because those are facts. Fighters have a poor will save. You can't cover that weakness with Fighter skills...you must go elsewhere. Bob will argue that skills are not a major weakness of fighters, because relative demands are fairly light. Bob can easily make functional fighters in a given area. Is it the BEST option in that area is highly debateable, and he will also acknowledge that.
I've never ONCE said that fighters cannot be effective members of a party at what they do. You're putting words in my mouth. I like fighters, but liking them and being able to see the glaring holes in them are not contradictory. Given a gut choice, I'd prefer to play a fighter as a melee. From a mechanical view, I acknowledge it's the worst of the 4 main choices.
There are things that I believe all fighters should have and have access to. The archetype argument is saying the other 95% of fighters cannot have those things. The skills argument is saying the fighters can't be good at non-magical learning, despite not being distracted by learning magic. That makes no sense to me.
The proof to these arguments has been presented and has facts and builds to back them up so to keep arguing, about the same old thing, is pretty pointless.
So, why are you bringing them up?
==Aelryinth
My improved sunder does not run out of uses per day (only the number of things to smash runs out). My dodge is useful in every combat. My grapple feats renders foes weak putty in my arms. My power attack with weapon spec attracts the envy of weaker and less damaging adventurers! RAAAARRR fighters are awesome.
We aren't complaining about the Rogue because this is a Fighter thread...and at least Rogues get Slippery Mind as an option.
And the skills guy got more hammered in 3.5 then the feat guy. Just look at the capstone for the Rogue vs the ninja.
And psion trait and Iron will are non-fighter, non-combat feats. Ergo, not specific to fighters, fighters can't use class abilities to shore up that weakness at all.
The barbarian, on the other hand, has both rage and superstitious to up his saves, and they are class abilities...and hugely useful ones, too.
I mean, come on, the barb gets Tumble as a class skill, where the Fighter, ideally the class most focused on self-training, does NOT. WTH.
Just so many examples of Fighters Don't Get Nice Things, And Let's Not Talk About The Rogue.
==Aelryinth
I'm experimenting with some new rules. No class skill lists. Yep, the fighter or barb, or wizard can take whatever they want. We all know the skill list doesn't fit for all the concepts we want to make (the court guard who doesn't have sense motive on his skill list by default, the caravan watching swordsman without perception on his skill list) so I just stopped that entirely. Players can take the skills they want and put what they want where they want and can afford. Not everyone has the same skill list so far in trying out this change. No +3 for class skill, instead skills as 3.5 but with no cross class skills. So can put ranks in to your level +3.
I stuck with the perception skill, and the stealth skill but I broke arcrobatics into jump, tumble and balance. So everyone can take what they want (wizards can take tumble, yayyy), but being brilliant at those three things is not given through one. They are close at times sure, but I've come to dislike them being one, tumbling and rolling is not the same as leaping a great jump.
Linguistics I broke into decipher script+another language, and forgery, which is separate.
That's a useful compromise.
For the Fighter skills, I'd personally just give the Fighter 4 skill points and the ability to add any 2 skills to his list at level 1/Character creation.
But I tend to take character creation pretty seriously. For instance, I don't give armor/weapon/shield profs for entering any class except at level 1. That suddenly makes those profs extremely valuable. One of the old advantages of fighters in 1/2E was they actually were proficient in a decent number of weapons.
I'd also give the Rogues the ability to pick any 2 skills for their list, and then give them elevating competence bonuses on a skill every 4 levels or so. I.e. Pick a skill every 4 levels, you get a competence bonus on them equal to rogue level/2.
Sure, it's a bonus that can be subbed with magic...but the rogue doesn't have to pay for it and it never gets shut down. he's always just that awesome.
And I'm a big believer in skill Ranks should be important, not just bonuses and DC's.Bards who invest in music skills to double up skill bonuses should not be as good at Diplomacy as someone who actually takes the Ranks. That's a bit harder to implement, however...you need to actually state what someone can do at each level of learning/ranks.
==Aelryinth
You using the Moment of Alacrity trick that Tempest likes to talk about on the WoTC boards, TOZ?
Basically, delay your action until everyone else is done, use Adaptive Style, then Moment of Alacrity to set yourself in front of everyone else, and basically go first / go again immediately?
==Aelryinth
I think that's the manuver name. it's the one that lets you reset yourself in the initiatve order so you go first. Basically, it buys off the penalty of Adaptive Style, and lets you perfectly adjust your manuver set for each and every fight without a real penalty except going last in the first round of fighting.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, Tempest said he'd use it to control the manuvers he had 'on tap' for any specific encounter, be it saves needed or multiple strikes or whatever, even AoE's if need be. He always had it on Swordsages, and it was even useful on Warblades via a magic item. You always had it in your default set, and then would Adaptive it away once you used it, clearing the way for the real manuvers you wanted.
==Aelryinth
Fey foundling from inner sea world guide but it has to be taken at first level. fey foundling featPaladin can lay on hands and get +2HP per die...How?
Very nice feat for a pally. Can't see it being worth it for any other class.
Maybe.
Makes lay on hands freakishly good. I generally take feats that don't rely on other chars to work.
Good for a Holy Vindicator as well.
Incidently.
What does the group prefer?
IF you had to pick between
+2 Will and a 1/day reroll or +4will?
Reroll and +2. But I am quite the fan of the 3.5 luck feats from scoundrel.
A "reroll" that has to be used without any knowledge of the roll, and is not influenced by the previous roll? Assuming we are taking about the Improved Save Feats and I do not misunderstand the terminology, they are completely useless TRAPS. It does not make a difference whether you roll once or roll again before you know the result an take the second result, as you actually only did one roll. The only difference is that the latter takes a bit more time and costs you a feat.
So +4, obviously, or an real reroll, i.e. you decide which result you take or at least you can decide to use it based on its actual result.
statistically, the +2 and reroll is always better then the +4...for the roll that you fail.
If you're subjected to multiple rolls over the course of the day, the +4 is better.
==Aelryinth
But in the case of the Improved Save Feats, which I assumed to be the base of this, you do not reroll a failed roll, or take the better of two, but you have to announce it "before the results are revealed" and "must take the second roll, even if it is worse." So you did not actually reroll, but rolled once, just with the meaningless difference that there was a roll before that was totally ignored.
I think I can develope this into a addition that we have to differenciate about several types of rerolls:
- Use before revealing, take the second result- which does nothing.
- Roll twice, take better/choose result.
- Roll again after failing (or revelation).
- Get an additional save later (like the Dual Mind Advanced Mutagen)
Just Fiddling to see the Max to Hit and Damage I can get.
Concept: TWF switch hitter with High Will save.
20pt buy
Race:Half elf (Ancestral Arms: Doublesword)
Ability Scores
Str 15 level bump to 18
Dex 16 (+2racial bonus), level bump to 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14, level bump to 15
Traits: Birthmark (+2 Will vs Mind Affecting)
Skills per level:4(class)+1(Favored)= 5 per level (Max UMD, Perception, and 10 ranks in Knowledge-Religion, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes covers most enemies for Know thy enemy)
At 1st level has +2 Will and +6vs Mind Affecting (-1Wis Mod)
Class: Lore Warden
1- TWFIron Will
2- Combat Expertise, Power Attack
3- +2 Maneuvers, Weapon Fcs: Doublesword
4- Weapon Specialisation
5- Weapon Training 1: Heavy BladesQuickdraw
6- Deadly Aim
7- +4 Maneuvers, Know thy EnemySkill Fcs: Survival
8- Gtr Weapon Focus: Doublesword, Retrain Wpn Spl for ITWF
9- Weapon Training 2: Bows, Eldritch Heritage: Orc
10-Wpn Spl: Scim
11- Hairs Breath, +6 ManeuversQuicken SLA: Touch of Rage
12-Dazing Assault,
13- Weapon Training 3: Close weaponsImproved Eldritch Heritage: Str of Beast
14-Know thy Enemy-Swift, Gtr Weapon Spl
15- TWRend
16- Retrain Dazing Assault for Stunning Assault,, Blindfight
17-Moonlight Stalker
18- GTWF
19- Gtr Eldritch Heritage
20- Big Game Hunter
Relies on Items to boost wis for Blindfight/Moonlight Stalker and UMD wand of Blur
Also wand of PFrm Evil to help will save
Looking at (when blur active)
+2 Gloves
+4 Wpn Train
+2 Gtr Wpn Fcs
+2 Know Thy Enemy
+2 Moonlight Stalker
+1 if vs Large or bigger
So TWF Doublesword has +12 to hit, +14 damage (+13/+15 if large)
8 attacks with a Speed Weapon
With a Bow
+9 to hit and damage(+10/+12 if large)
can quickdraw Bow for ranged so basically full attacks at all times
Only requiring a level 2 wand self buff.
Add 18 Str, +6 Belt of Perfection, +6 Inhereant (Imp Eldritch Heritage), +5 Double lomgsword
BAB of 20= Total mod of 47 to hit-6PA-2TWF =+39/39/39/34/34/29/29/25
Now throw on Touch of Rage for 1d4+1 rounds (+10 Attack/Damage/Will save)
49/49/49/45/45/39/39/35 TWF attack routine with power attack on.
-5 Stunning Assault/-6 Combat Exp.
Those are some MASSIVE numbers there.
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Just Fiddling to see the Max to Hit and Damage I can get.
Concept: TWF switch hitter with High Will save.20pt buy
Race:Half elf (Ancestral Arms: Doublesword)
Ability Scores
Str 15 level bump to 18
Dex 16 (+2racial bonus), level bump to 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14, level bump to 15
Traits: Birthmark (+2 Will vs Mind Affecting)
Skills per level:4(class)+1(Favored)= 5 per level (Max UMD, Perception, and 10 ranks in Knowledge-Religion, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes covers most enemies for Know thy enemy)At 1st level has +2 Will and +6vs Mind Affecting (-1Wis Mod)
Class: Lore Warden1- TWFIron Will
2- Combat Expertise, Power Attack
3- +2 Maneuvers, Weapon Fcs: Doublesword
4- Weapon Specialisation
5- Weapon Training 1: Heavy BladesQuickdraw
6- Deadly Aim
7- +4 Maneuvers, Know thy EnemySkill Fcs: Survival
8- Gtr Weapon Focus: Doublesword, Retrain Wpn Spl for ITWF
9- Weapon Training 2: Bows, Eldritch Heritage: Orc
10-Wpn Spl: Scim
11- Hairs Breath, +6 ManeuversQuicken SLA: Touch of Rage
12-Dazing Assault,
13- Weapon Training 3: Close weaponsImproved Eldritch Heritage: Str of Beast
14-Know thy Enemy-Swift, Gtr Weapon Spl
15- TWRend
16- Retrain Dazing Assault for Stunning Assault,, Blindfight
17-Moonlight Stalker
18- GTWF
19- Gtr Eldritch Heritage
20- Big Game HunterRelies on Items to boost wis for Blindfight/Moonlight Stalker and UMD wand of Blur
Also wand of PFrm Evil to help will saveLooking at (when blur active)
+2 Gloves
+4 Wpn Train
+2 Gtr Wpn Fcs
+2 Know Thy Enemy
+2 Moonlight Stalker
+1 if vs Large or biggerSo TWF Doublesword has +12 to hit, +14 damage (+13/+15 if large)
8 attacks with a Speed WeaponWith a Bow
+9 to hit and damage(+10/+12 if large)
can quickdraw Bow for ranged so basically full attacks at all times
Only requiring a level 2 wand self buff.Add 18 Str, +6 Belt of Perfection, +6...
How did you get Touch of Rage at 1d4 + 1?
Trait Optimistic Gambler makes all Morale affects last 1d4 rounds longer than normal.
Normal duration is one round.
1d4+1
Quicken SLA: Touch of Rage let's you do it as a swift action.
Yep. Pretty sure my math is spot on.
Wonder how many other classes can get thier to hit that high against non specialised opponents.
I'm thinking Barbarians. Maybe Pallies.
Rangers, too. Or have you forgotten Instant Enemy? You just make that enemy your specialized enemy.
I don't actually see the optimistic gambler trait on your build. i see Birthmark...
Once again, the requirement to burn general feats to make the fighter equitable becomes obvious. And general feats any other class can take...
:P
==Aelryinth
No worries.
I don't mind general feats. If I could get all those in a Ranger build, I would. I may try but I'm fairly confident I can't. Too Many to get them all.
Ranger won't synergise well with a 20 point buy.
Str 14 - Melee char. Needs str
Dex 12- can be lowish only med armor but Ignores dex for TWF
Con 14- Melee char needs con
Int 13- Cannot sack Int. Needs it for expertise
Wis 14- Needs for spells
Cha 14- Needs for eldritch heritage.
1- Power Attack, Skill Fcs: Half Elf
2-TWF
3- Combat Exp
5- Blind Fight
6-ITWF
7- Deadly Aim
9- Eldritch Heritage
11- Imp Eldritch
12-TWR
13- Quicken SLA
14-GTWF
15- Moonlight Stalker
17- Dazing Assault
18- Doubleslice
19-Gtr Eldritch
Hmm. No big game hunter. No Quickdraw. No Weapon Focus
i admit better skills+ magic
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Once again, the requirement to burn general feats to make the fighter equitable becomes obvious. And general feats any other class can take...:P
==Aelryinth
I don't see that as valid criticism. Any class can take EWP: Falcatta, but if my 6 STR wizard elects to do so he doesn't get much out of it.
Look at the entire package rather than picking things apart. Otherwise you'll make the 'optimal' sorcerer that is inferior to most sorcerers...
-James
That's because it's not. Some people have a problem unless it's all "fighter only" and can't seem to give the class any credit no matter how well you prove that the class is spot on.
One more thing. Now this is to a certain number of people out there. Now you do realize that the main ability of the fighter is the sheer amount of feat slots that the class gets so no matter what feats you do choose, you are still using the fighter's, and only the fighter's, main class ability.
the EWP: Falcatta is a combat feat, so it can be taken as a fighter feat.
Eldritch Heritage and Quicken SLA cannot. And the wizard benefits quite nicely from those.
So does the barbarian, and the Paladin, if you care to stick them into a build.
Furthermore, all those classes do not have to burn general feats to cover their weaknesses to the extent a fighter does. THAT is the point being made.
As for fighting neutrals damage, the Paladin accomplishes this with weapon bond, and possibly Greater Magic Weapon. An extra +1 to +6 better weapon then the fighter, depending on level, nicely takes care of his Weapon training advantage, if the Paladin builds for it. I did a level by level comparison of the two classes, and it really sucked what the Paladin got over a fighter, level by level.
A ranger doesn't need a 14 Wis for spellcasting until level 12. That's a 10-12 Wis with a booster, if he wants it, and can easily afford it.
Ditto the charisma for Eldritch Heritage. He's no more MAD then the fighter is, really.
=+Aelryinth
Ranger won't synergise well with a 20 point buy.
How does your fighter pick up moonlight stalker with a 10INT?
-James
Because my fighter was a Lore Warden. They get it for free at Level 2 without needing the Int score.
Lore Wardens get Expertise at level 2. Moonlight Stalker isn't mentioned anywhere. He needs the 13 Int.
==Aelryinth
Correction. Gets expertise for free.
Headband for Int 13 at char level 15.
Thinking up a fighter atm, for the jade regent adventure.
No focus or weapon spec. Great fort 2-3 times, toughness, poison resistance, expertise, and goad. Traits on initiative and perception. High con, high dex. Light armour, great shield (enchant that baby up).
Outlast opponents, mock enemies as they tire, endure the elements and travel fatigue, trek for days if need be, stay alert and keep watch.
The first class that came to mind to make this type of character? Fighter. Because fighters are awesome.
A paladin using the human racial FC can take energy resistance. 1 pt of cold resistance renders the paladin immune to the frozen environment of the middle of the quest...and helps resist a lot of oni spells, come to think of it.
Thought of making one if someone local ever starts the game. Who needs the katana that hands it out if you've got it built in?
==Aelryinth
Damage from icy cold environments don't do more than 1 damage in pathfinder?
I remember in 3.5 Frostburn, it would come in lots of 1d6 per ten minutes of extreme cold (p. 10). You would still experience hypothermia and frostbite if you took damage.
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Damage from icy cold environments don't do more than 1 damage in pathfinder?
I remember in 3.5 Frostburn, it would come in lots of 1d6 per ten minutes of extreme cold (p. 10). You would still experience hypothermia and frostbite if you took damage.
I love Frostburn!
Guys, guys.
Cold resistance is per round, per instance.
Cold environments deal per minute, at best.
1 point of cold resistance renders you effectively immune to all but supernatural cold that inflicts damage by the round. The very least interpretation of it is 1 point of Cold Res = Res 10 Cold/Minute, waaaay above environmental damage.
==Aelryinth
Not by Frostburn, but I'm sure pathfinder has its own interpretation. Probably time to find the reference.
If you have 1 cold resist in a setting with the frost rules that's nice, you can still take a max of 5 damage over 10 mins if you roll 6 on a d6 and are in severe cold. There are also other levels of cold.
I read what you are saying, what do the rules say? Is your math, their math? In the past it has been a build-up and then what is your cold resist, can you mitigate it question? Cold resist 5 does really save you, see below. Col res 1 didn't cover it, as stated in page 9-10.
Going through it:
Cold, each hour, fort save or take 1d6 nonlethal.
Severe cold, save every ten minutes, or take 1d6 nonlethal every failed save.
Extreme cold, 1d6 real cold damage no save every ten minutes, and a fort save or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Metal armour is effected as by a chill metal spell.
There are levels of protection to mitigate all or some of this.
Level of protection level 3, is the endure elements spell or resistance of cold 5 or more. So that can really rock. Level 3 protects against extreme cold, there is one level above this, pray you are never in it. This is all on page 9 of frostburn, but my pathfinder knowledge is lacking.
Other problems! If you get wet this can be a real problem, people can suffocate in igloos or be buried in avalanches, fail reflex saves and fall off cliffs etc.