In space, no one can hear you bang your head against the wall.Dude, we had a whole thread about it; at this point I'm keeping quiet cause I got tired of banging my head against that particular wall.
Still hurts though; silent but deadly...
Lilith, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if you can't see why pantheism is a religious category rather than a religion, no one will ever be able to answer that question to your satisfaction.
The Weyland Corporation is coming for all of you!!!
Someone without religious belief wouldn't turn a thread about a statement made by a Mainline Protestant leader into an opportunity to evangelize atheism. They'd just shrug their shoulders, says "that's cool", give a thumbs up about a guy working for equality, and move on.
And, I'm sure that if this thread hadn't been started by Citizen Duck, that's exactly what would have happened.
If you are unfamiliar with the background, well, the "Sometimes I agree with BNW" thread is still active...
So, what magical thinking is an intrinsic component of pantheism or taoism?
That the Tao defies definition?
Just stop responding to him/her/it. LT is just a troll. Nothing more.
The Tao, in a lot of ways, is comparable to Philo's concept of the Forms. Even as an atheist, I find a lot of Eastern Philosophy to be fascinating and yet perplexing in the same breath. The Daodejing, as condensed as it is compared to other vast religious tomes, can impart so much with so little versus a whole Alexandrian library to have so much resources and nary as much to impart.
Of course, it didn't help much when the orthodoxy burned it down, but I digress.
Dude, we had a whole thread about it; at this point I'm keeping quiet cause I got tired of banging my head against that particular wall.Lack of religious belief = religious belief. Logic fail.I've got no problem with non-religious atheists (ie. the people who claim that they take the position of 'no god' on faith because they can't prove it, they've chosen to take that position on faith because they believe that it leads to a better society or, at least, makes themselves better people in their own personal life). Similarly, I've got no problem with honest atheists who acknowledge that atheism is a religion that they've chosen to take.
As with all religions, its the fanatic atheists who believe that their way is the one true path to enlightenment and the only rational choice that scare the hell out of me.I agree that lack of religious belief != religious belief.
Many atheists, however, have religious belief in the absence of God.Someone without religious belief wouldn't turn a thread about a statement made by a Mainline Protestant leader into an opportunity to evangelize atheism. They'd just shrug their shoulders, says "that's cool", give a thumbs up about a guy working for equality, and move on.
What do you consider evangelizing atheism exactly? I'm really asking you to clarify that statement, not being snarky. From what I've read on these boards, none of the atheists here try to convince people of faith to agree with us, but rather ask them to look at the behavior of religious entities without bias.
I don't understand why you can't be anti religious establishment without being anti-religion. And how is pointing out religious people OR religious organizations OWN BEHAVIOR being anti-religion anyway?
It's like saying that anyone who doesn't say Merry Christmas is making WAR ON CHRISTMAS!
It's absurd.
I don't understand why you can't be anti religious establishment without being anti-religion. And how is pointing out religious people OR religious organizations OWN BEHAVIOR being anti-religion anyway?
It's like saying that anyone who doesn't say Merry Christmas is making WAR ON CHRISTMAS!
It's absurd.
Happy holidays! :)
(I'm going to hell.)
Lillithsthrall,
I mean this in earnest.
Either you're brilliant and just messing with us (again) or you really have no idea what you're talking about (again).
Regardless, you've lost all credibility. Please go educate yourself before further filling the boards with total nonsense.
Thank you.
stuff
You asked about Daoism, now the Daodejing. As many Daoists are illiterate I have to imagine, by your standards, they can't be counted as Daoists having not read the official literature.
No religion is MERELY its doctrine, especially religions that are not doctrinal (like Daoism). What matters are practices, and ancestral veneration is extremely common. I wouldn't say its intrinsic, any more than veneration of the saints is intrinsic to Catholicism, but to deny it is there and part of the practice is being willfully ignorant.
Again, it's like saying that, since there are people who identify as Christian that don't believe in god, that belief in god isn't intrinsic to christianity. I guess no religions have intrinsic properties. Everything is ether.
But, as I've said, I only nominally consider Daoism a religion.
As for definitions of religion, Geertz's serves.
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Your puny human religions matter not, for soon* the stars shall come right, and the Dread Lord of R'lyeh shall rise from his tomb to resume his rule over this paltry orb.
*Disclaimer: The value of soon may vary for your local space-time continuum, your species' life expectancy, and the exact configuration of your local galaxy.
Your puny human religions matter not, for soon* the stars shall come right, and the Dread Lord of R'lyeh shall rise from his tomb to resume his rule over this paltry orb.
*Disclaimer: The value of soon may vary for your local space-time continuum, your species' life expectancy, and the exact configuration of your local galaxy.
That too.
I'm not denying that its there. But my still unanswered question is what magical thinking is intrinsic to Taoism or Pantheism?
Fine. None in Taoism, though there almost always is. When there isn't mysticism present it's not a religion.
Pantheism, as we've already stated, is NOT a religion. Just like atheism isn't.
You keep asking me these questions about an assertion I didn't make.
I'm not denying that its there. But my still unanswered question is what magical thinking is intrinsic to Taoism or Pantheism?Fine. None in Taoism, though there almost always is. When there isn't mysticism present it's not a religion.
Pantheism, as we've already stated, is NOT a religion. Just like atheism isn't.
You keep asking me these questions about an assertion I didn't make.
It was my assertion, which I standby. Its why I stated that lil was wrong and it wasnt my job to educate him. It makes for a much shorter and less irritating conversation.
pan·the·ism/ˈpanTHēˌizəm/
Noun:
A doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
Belief in a supernatural overlord (aka God) is magical thinking.
It was my assertion, which I standby. Its why I stated that lil was wrong and it wasnt my job to educate him. It makes for a much shorter and less irritating conversation.
I'm not denying that its there. But my still unanswered question is what magical thinking is intrinsic to Taoism or Pantheism?Fine. None in Taoism, though there almost always is. When there isn't mysticism present it's not a religion.
Pantheism, as we've already stated, is NOT a religion. Just like atheism isn't.
You keep asking me these questions about an assertion I didn't make.
Yes, he stands by it, even though he can't identify any actual magical thinking intrinsic to Taoism.
How is his position any different from the fundamentalist Christian who espouses that Jesus is the won twu wai?
He did actually. You were too busy "being right" to pay attention.
How about we get past "Christian vs. Atheist" and start treating each other's faith with a little respect? Nobody's perfect, but as long as we keep striving to be, how about we treat each other decent? Seriously, whatever happened to respecting diversity?
Whatever happened to condemning intolerance? I mean regardless of religious preference. If there's one institution in the first world thats blocking gay marriage, its the Vatican, and they're, y'know, slightly religious in their world view. If you've got a problem with me saying that, take it up with the Pope.
If, on the other hand, you feel that I'm attacking you when I talk about the Vatican's political agenda, all I can say is, don't be so sensitive. I you don't agree with them, I wasn't talking to you.
Lil,
Has anyone ever been able to correct you or are you as omniscient as you present yourself to be? I've never seen it here on the boards. That alone should tell you something. Though I doubt you'll get it.
Yet again I get sucked into your troll trap. I really should know better by now than to engage. Enjoy your delusion.
"God" as defined in Pantheism is not a supernatural overlord.pan·the·ism/ˈpanTHēˌizəm/
Noun:
A doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.Belief in a supernatural overlord (aka God) is magical thinking.
Oh. So now you speak for every single pantheist world-wide?
My mother is a pantheist, or "neo-pagan" and she believes that the universe has some level of consciousness, which we can all tap into on some spiritual level. She believes that the gods believed fervently in all religions are a manifestation of a subconscious realization that we are all connected through this "cosmic consciousness".
Her beliefs have no basis in empirical data, despite her being a researcher and scientist herself, and I don't prod her too much about it because it gives her comfort.
How about we get past "Christian vs. Atheist" and start treating each other's faith with a little respect? Nobody's perfect, but as long as we keep striving to be, how about we treat each other decent? Seriously, whatever happened to respecting diversity?Whatever happened to condemning intolerance? I mean regardless of religious preference. If there's one institution in the first world thats blocking gay marriage, its the Vatican, and they're, y'know, slightly religious in their world view. If you've got a problem with me saying that, take it up with the Pope.
If, on the other hand, you feel that I'm attacking you when I talk about the Vatican's political agenda, all I can say is, don't be so sensitive. I you don't agree with them, I wasn't talking to you.
If people are determined to be intolerant, then they aren't striving to be perfect.
I've got no problem with you attacking the Vatican's political agenda. I've done it myself more than once. But, there's a difference between attacking the Vatican's political agenda and attacking Catholics in general - many of which are (for reasons I honestly don't understand, but do try to accept) remaining Catholic while sincerely fighting for tolerance.
The thing is, the Pope is head of state in the Vatican, and the head of all big-c Catholic churches ever. I drink Jameson's, but I don't think the church and state should be the same thing, like ever. Remaining within the Catholic Church invalidates your fight for tolerance, IMO.
Fine. None in Taoism, though there almost always is. When there isn't mysticism present it's not a religion.
Pantheism, as we've already stated, is NOT a religion. Just like atheism isn't.
You keep asking me these questions about an assertion I didn't make.
Bolded for emphasis.
Confucianism might want to have something to invalidate there.
BTW, what does any of this has to do with the UCC's position on gay marriage? I don't think the Rev. Moss had much to say on the intrinsics of pantheism, atheism, and taoism.
Or maybe I didn't read something?
Winning the Internet based on strawman semantics can wait another day. Enjoy the sun before you lose sight of it.
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In space, no one can hear you enjoy the sun.
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To the abyss with you, Sartre.
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LilithsThrall jumped in and attacked atheists for attacking religion. If you didn't read it already, I'd advise closing the thread and walking away slowly.BTW, what does any of this has to do with the UUC's position on gay marriage? I don't think the Rev. Moss had much to say on the intrinsics of pantheism, atheism, and taoism.
Or maybe I didn't read something?
Winning the Internet based on strawman semantics can wait another day. Enjoy the sun before you lose sight of it.
I did. I'm an atheist. It's LilithsThrall. That should give compunction as to how much time I invest trying to spend time on it.
Zero.
I find much more value in Comrade Anklebiter's satire.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Nobody's perfect, but as long as we keep striving to be, how about we treat each other decent? Seriously, whatever happened to respecting diversity?
Ack. I think I just contracted irony poisoning.
Seriously though, why can't the rest of you be respectful and decent about diversity and other people's beliefs like LilithsThrall always is?
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Nobody's perfect, but as long as we keep striving to be, how about we treat each other decent?
As a suggestion, if you'd occasionally read your posts in someone else's voice and see how they sound, you might then be able to reword them so as to keep the salient points, but avoid sounding like that snide little know-it-all fat girl in 3rd grade that everyone hated. Addressing others as equals, rather than as if you think they're insufferably inferior beings, might go a long way towards fostering a reciprocal courtesy and respect in those you're addressing.
Lil,
Has anyone ever been able to correct you or are you as omniscient as you present yourself to be? I've never seen it here on the boards. That alone should tell you something. Though I doubt you'll get it.
Yet again I get sucked into your troll trap. I really should know better by now than to engage. Enjoy your delusion.
Since you've got no evidence for your position yet continue to cling to it like a child holding onto his mother's apron strings, the question you raise is one better asked of yourself.
When I've been presented with persuasive evidence, I've changed my position.
Soo in other words, you've never been wrong. Duely noted. All hail Lilly.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As a suggestion, if you'd occasionally read your posts in someone else's voice and see how they sound[...]
I don't know about the rest of you, but I read LT's posts in the voice of Bubbles, from the Powerpuff Girls.
And, for future reference, my posts should be read in Morgan Freeman's voice, which comes the closest to capturing my gravitas. Either that, or in the voice of the Professor, from Futurama, which captures my inhuman genius and ever-increasing senility.
Actually the principles of the free market should allow gay peoople to marry if the marginal benefit of getting married is greater tahn the marginal cost then this improves efficiency. Also another old legal doctrine taht was used to bust unions was the right of contract which if you applied it to gay marriage should also be allowed.