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I was never really christian on the inside, so it won't bring me back. However, assuming this becomes the norm, it will go a long way to changing my very negative views on the religion as a whole.Deep faith may resonate in our position, but it is the ethic of love that forces us to prayerfully reexamine our position.Talk like this could bring me back to Christianity.
It already is the norm among mainline Protestant clergy according to a recent poll the majority of mainline Protestant clergy mirror this position and, incidentally, support gay adoption as well.
But, please, don't get confused. Their Christian, so they MUST be hate mongers! Ignore everything they say and do, it must be a ploy!
Do you have a source you could link? As I mentioned I'm skeptical.
Edit: Also, I never said all christians were hate mongers. I just said the hate mongers were the loudest.
And of course, you push the strawman againTheir Christian, so they MUST be hate mongers! Ignore everything they say and do, it must be a ploy!
What's with that? It's a very tiresome approach. No one has suggested anything like that, LillithsThrall.
Relax. People are far more likely to listen to what you have to say if you don't say it like that.
Um, Athiests aren't saying that christians are anti-gay. Christians are doing that all by themselves. They're really quite loud about it.
The problem is that most people usually judge a group by its loudest members, which are usually those in a small fringe group. I know all atheists aren't Christian-bashing intellectual snobs who think anyone with faith is either stupid or crazy, but those are usually the ones you encounter.
Since we are playing the No True Scotsman game here, one can be an atheist without being a Christ-hater.
Just sayin'.
The problem is that most people usually judge a group by its loudest members, which are usually those in a small fringe group. I know all atheists aren't Christian-bashing intellectual snobs who think anyone with faith is either stupid or crazy, but those are usually the ones you encounter.
Um, Athiests aren't saying that christians are anti-gay. Christians are doing that all by themselves. They're really quite loud about it.
I, like many athiests, have an issue with blind faith. It's not a concept I respect. Unfortunately all religions are based on blind faith.
That being said I can respect specific religious people, but that respect is based on their behavior. Assuming behavior is f both parties are willing to not talk about religion we get along just fine. This is the relationship I have with my brother and it's quite good.
Yes, they can. But as long as we're judging groups by their loudest members, all atheists must be Christ-haters.Since we are playing the No True Scotsman game here, one can be an atheist without being a Christ-hater.
Just sayin'.
Well he does still owe me twenty bucks.
Yes, they can. But as long as we're judging groups by their loudest members, all atheists must be Christ-haters.Since we are playing the No True Scotsman game here, one can be an atheist without being a Christ-hater.
Just sayin'.
Again, that's incorrect. Athiests believe that blind faith is a bad thing. i could use harsher and more accurate terms, but I'm trying to be polite.
Athiests don't like religion. Christianity isn't special in that regard.
Yes, they can. But as long as we're judging groups by their loudest members, all atheists must be Christ-haters.Since we are playing the No True Scotsman game here, one can be an atheist without being a Christ-hater.
Just sayin'.
I do hate most religions roughly equally. Though I doubt I'm particularly loud about it.
Christianity isn't special in that regard.I didn't say that it was.
How do you consider Taoism, for example, or Pantheism, as another example, to be based on blind faith?
They're all based on principles that can't be proven. "Magical thinking" as it were.
The problem is that most people usually judge a group by its loudest members, which are usually those in a small fringe group. I know all atheists aren't Christian-bashing intellectual snobs who think anyone with faith is either stupid or crazy, but those are usually the ones you encounter.
Um, Athiests aren't saying that christians are anti-gay. Christians are doing that all by themselves. They're really quite loud about it.
I, like many athiests, have an issue with blind faith. It's not a concept I respect. Unfortunately all religions are based on blind faith.
That being said I can respect specific religious people, but that respect is based on their behavior. Assuming behavior is f both parties are willing to not talk about religion we get along just fine. This is the relationship I have with my brother and it's quite good.
Pfft. Most of human life is based on blind faith. And I know many religious folks whose faith isn't as blind as you'd like to think. Again, you're making assumptions based on a few.
Having an issue and making an issue are two separate things. I think a lot of the problem is people on both sides of the issue walking around with chips on their shoulders waiting for the other side to say the wrong thing. The internet was made for those kinds of people.
In 2011, majorities of most religious groups favored allowing gay and lesbian couple to marry legally, illustrating that the old narrative of battle lines between secular supporters and religious opponents no longer serves as an accurate characterization of the landscape of the same-sex marriage debate. In the general population, 2011 was also the first year on record in which supporting same-sex marriage was not a minority position. In May, several surveys (all asking slightly different versions of the same question) found that a majority of the public supported allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry. PRRI’s May survey found that 51% of Americans were in favor, and 43% were opposed.
Five religious groups favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally, compared to three groups who are opposed.
http://publicreligion.org/research/2012/01/research-note-beyond-secular-vs- religious-religious-divides-in-support-for-same-sex-marriage/
Source: Public Religion Research Institute, Combined datasets from Millennials, Religion, and Gay & Lesbian Issues Survey (July 14-30, 2011) and Pluralism, Immigration, Civic Integration Survey (August 1-14, 2011), Total Sample = 5,450.
Link doesnt work. Please try again.
What are those principles?They're all based on principles that can't be proven. "Magical thinking" as it were.Christianity isn't special in that regard.I didn't say that it was.
How do you consider Taoism, for example, or Pantheism, as another example, to be based on blind faith?
Google can answer that for you.
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*nested quote*
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religion zinger.
Booyah!
Atheists on the other hand have essentially no political influence and aren't likely to bother anyone anywhere other than internet political debates.
Um...not quite.
The problem is that most people usually judge a group by its loudest members, which are usually those in a small fringe group. I know all atheists aren't Christian-bashing intellectual snobs who think anyone with faith is either stupid or crazy, but those are usually the ones you encounter.
Um, Athiests aren't saying that christians are anti-gay. Christians are doing that all by themselves. They're really quite loud about it.
I, like many athiests, have an issue with blind faith. It's not a concept I respect. Unfortunately all religions are based on blind faith.
That being said I can respect specific religious people, but that respect is based on their behavior. Assuming behavior is f both parties are willing to not talk about religion we get along just fine. This is the relationship I have with my brother and it's quite good.
Pfft. Most of human life is based on blind faith. And I know many religious folks whose faith isn't as blind as you'd like to think. Again, you're making assumptions based on a few.
Having an issue and making an issue are two separate things. I think a lot of the problem is people on both sides of the issue walking around with chips on their shoulders waiting for the other side to say the wrong thing. The internet was made for those kinds of people.
Blind faith is not the same as educated guesses based on past or present observation.
"I've seen fire burn things before. If I see fire again I am relatively certain it will burn me if I touch it. " VS "The garden is beautiful so there must be fairies living under it."
Yes, it can. The answer is "none".Google can answer that for you.What are those principles?They're all based on principles that can't be proven. "Magical thinking" as it were.Christianity isn't special in that regard.I didn't say that it was.
How do you consider Taoism, for example, or Pantheism, as another example, to be based on blind faith?
You're wrong, but it's not my job to educate you. Best of luck.
*puts troll food away*
Link doesnt work. Please try again.In 2011, majorities of most religious groups favored allowing gay and lesbian couple to marry legally, illustrating that the old narrative of battle lines between secular supporters and religious opponents no longer serves as an accurate characterization of the landscape of the same-sex marriage debate. In the general population, 2011 was also the first year on record in which supporting same-sex marriage was not a minority position. In May, several surveys (all asking slightly different versions of the same question) found that a majority of the public supported allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry. PRRI’s May survey found that 51% of Americans were in favor, and 43% were opposed.
Five religious groups favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally, compared to three groups who are opposed.
http://publicreligion.org/research/2012/01/research-note-beyond-secular-vs- religious-religious-divides-in-support-for-same-sex-marriage/
Source: Public Religion Research Institute, Combined datasets from Millennials, Religion, and Gay & Lesbian Issues Survey (July 14-30, 2011) and Pluralism, Immigration, Civic Integration Survey (August 1-14, 2011), Total Sample = 5,450.
Try this
http://tinyurl.com/83e40my
Much better. It could be accurate, but it's a very small sample size given the population they're trying to represent.
If it is true good for them for not being needlessly hateful. It shows social development.
Yes, it can. The answer is "none".Google can answer that for you.What are those principles?They're all based on principles that can't be proven. "Magical thinking" as it were.Christianity isn't special in that regard.I didn't say that it was.
How do you consider Taoism, for example, or Pantheism, as another example, to be based on blind faith?
Well Pantheism isn't a religion, though it could be described as A school of religious thought. It often ascribes a level of "cosmic consciousness" to the universe itself, an unprovable statement. Daoism historically has included ancestor worship, and the belief that the spirits of one's ancestors can be contacted.
You're welcome.
I've got no problem with non-religious atheists (ie. the people who claim that they take the position of 'no god' on faith because they can't prove it, they've chosen to take that position on faith because they believe that it leads to a better society or, at least, makes themselves better people in their own personal life). Similarly, I've got no problem with honest atheists who acknowledge that atheism is a religion that they've chosen to take.
As with all religions, its the fanatic atheists who believe that their way is the one true path to enlightenment and the only rational choice that scare the hell out of me.
FYI: This statement shows that you don't have a firm grasp on the base concepts.
Yes, it can. The answer is "none".Google can answer that for you.What are those principles?They're all based on principles that can't be proven. "Magical thinking" as it were.Christianity isn't special in that regard.I didn't say that it was.
How do you consider Taoism, for example, or Pantheism, as another example, to be based on blind faith?
Well Pantheism isn't a religion, though it could be described as A school of religious thought. It often ascribes a level of "cosmic consciousness" to the universe itself, an unprovable statement. Daoism historically has included ancestor worship, and the belief that the spirits of one's ancestors can be contacted.
You're welcome.
Cosmic consciousness = magical thinking
Spirits = magical thinkingThank you for proving my point for me.
Edit: Thanks Meatrace
Absolutely no difference between your reply and the assertion by other fanatics that "Jesus is obviously the won twu wai".Yes, it can. The answer is "none".Google can answer that for you.What are those principles?They're all based on principles that can't be proven. "Magical thinking" as it were.Christianity isn't special in that regard.I didn't say that it was.
How do you consider Taoism, for example, or Pantheism, as another example, to be based on blind faith?
You're wrong, but it's not my job to educate you. Best of luck.
*puts troll food away*
Sarcasm?
Well Pantheism isn't a religion, though it could be described as A school of religious thought. It often ascribes a level of "cosmic consciousness" to the universe itself, an unprovable statement. Daoism historically has included ancestor worship, and the belief that the spirits of one's ancestors can be contacted.
You're welcome.
Pantheism doesn't intrinsically have a belief in a "cosmic consciousness". Daoism does not intrinsically have a belief in ancestor worship. Your argument is like saying that since many Christians are Republican, "Republicanism" is a part of being Christian.
You're embarasing yourself.
Try this
http://tinyurl.com/83e40my
Ahh yes. There are some serious problems with the survey itself as well as your representation of it.
Of the 'religious' groups represented, the most pro-gay are Jewish (of which there are about 5 million in the US or 2.1%), non-christian and unaffiliated. You're trying to use the fact that secular Jews, non-christians, and the irreligious are largely pro gay marriage as proof that "most religions" are.
Well Pantheism isn't a religion, though it could be described as A school of religious thought. It often ascribes a level of "cosmic consciousness" to the universe itself, an unprovable statement. Daoism historically has included ancestor worship, and the belief that the spirits of one's ancestors can be contacted.
You're welcome.
Pantheism doesn't intrinsically have a belief in a "cosmic consciousness". Daoism does not intrinsically have a belief in ancestor worship. Your argument is like saying that since many Christians are Republican, "Republicanism" is a part of being Christian.
No, it's not. It's like saying that all christians believe in god. It's true that some don't, wacky enough, but it's part of the teachings.
Pantheism isn't a religion, as I've previously said, so whatever we say about it makes no difference to the conversation.
Daoism is, intrinsically, a belief that the universe is a balance of mystical forces. It is, definitionally, a belief in the supernatural.
Though many people, including myself, don't really consider Daoism a religion either. Modern Daoism in the US is very different than Daoism in rural China where, continuing the ancient traditions of various Chinese emperors, it does include ancestor veneration.
The United Church of Christ is a very liberal denomination and as such these comments come as no surprise. It is simply a political agenda dressed up in bad theology.
+
Really? Looked like incredibly sound reasoning and judgment to me. Looked like a means to living well and getting along in a functioning Democracy without what would otherwise be inevitable for a Democracy to work: the end of religion as a whole.
Think a minute on the opposite of what this guy says. Are you really ready to promote chaotic theocracy in the US with hate, segregation, and religious law as the accepted status quo? Because that is what we have in a more mild form already, and it's not working. And Sharia law is pretty much the outcome when a majority choose to arbitrarily and ignorantly dismiss the sort of thing this guy is saying outright.
Did it not occur to you to consider that this man meant what he was saying, honestly? Because his comments reflect my entire position. And there's nothing political about how I feel. It's just human.
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It turns out that we are descended from the stars, not Yahweh. And not to spoiler anything, but it turns out our creator hates us all, gay and straight alike.
In space, no one can hear you pray.
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Lack of religious belief = religious belief. Logic fail.I've got no problem with non-religious atheists (ie. the people who claim that they take the position of 'no god' on faith because they can't prove it, they've chosen to take that position on faith because they believe that it leads to a better society or, at least, makes themselves better people in their own personal life). Similarly, I've got no problem with honest atheists who acknowledge that atheism is a religion that they've chosen to take.
As with all religions, its the fanatic atheists who believe that their way is the one true path to enlightenment and the only rational choice that scare the hell out of me.
Dude, we had a whole thread about it; at this point I'm keeping quiet cause I got tired of banging my head against that particular wall.
My apologies, CJ, but I didn't want, even for a second, to be associated as: a) anti-gay marriage (just anti-marriage, thank you!); or b) accusing him of "pandering".So what does that make me? And answer in another thread, this one is icky ;)
Again, my apologies, CJ. Perhaps I should've redacted your name.
In this post quoted here, I am not trying to indicate anything about you-- the a) and b) were about the exchange on the first page.
It turns out that we are descended from the stars, not Yahweh. And not to spoiler anything, but it turns out our creator hates us all, gay and straight alike.
In space, no one can hear you pray.
Everyone in the goblin kennels prays in their own language. At least, that's what Dicey tells me, so far as i'm concerned they're just babbling.
(Seriously Doodle, that thing nearly killed my brain the first time you linked it.)
Dude, we had a whole thread about it; at this point I'm keeping quiet cause I got tired of banging my head against that particular wall.
In space, no one can hear you bang your head against the wall.