In the table top you can play monsters like goblins. If you can play
monsters, you shud hath fun being a monster like if you play a minator
you shud be stronger thin a humemin but gards cost more goled.
Well if i had my way it whud tack more time to make armor and wepons and more gowld if you by. So i whud play a minator or
a goblin.
Goblin Squad Member
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Well if i had my way it whud tack more time to make armor and wepons and more gowld if you by. So i whud play a minator or
a goblin.
Meaningless penalties if you play a character who doesn't craft. The bonuses for minotaurs are all about combat, so why are the only penalties you suggested completely unrelated to combat?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Meaningless penalties if you play a character who doesn't craft. The bonuses for minotaurs are all about combat, so why are the only penalties you suggested completely unrelated to combat?Well if i had my way it whud tack more time to make armor and wepons and more gowld if you by. So i whud play a minator or
a goblin.
Seconded, considering when it comes to crafting/combat both of those are classes that on their own will always be better when a crafter and a combatant ally together and focus on their specialization. A pure crafter who always crafts, and a combatant who goes out and brings back the shiny stuff to bring back to the crafter will always be a better combatant.
As far as money, that never balances anything, Once guilds have large infrastructures, guilds etc... Money becomes less and less of a factor.
Slower skill training? Limited/harder to craft weapon and armor choices? Specific counters against creatures not of the humanoid type?
The specific counters part could work, IMO slower skill training will still have less and less impact the longer the game goes on, considering GW does not intend for a 20/20/20 to be stronger than a single 20 (only more versatile), that means that 2.5 years in, the pro's will absolutely outweigh the cons, unless the racial advantage is not even slightly significant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did anyone ever play LOTRO? I never did much, but as I understand it they had a system were players could play orc/goblins etc... but only as opposition to other players in PVP.
I have seen some stuff on LARPing systems, where new people can play for free as long as they play the random monsters, while others have to pay to play persistent heroes.
The point being, I wonder if GW could implement a similar but slightly more in-depth system where a player could choose to play 'monster' races, but they would spawn at monster camp locations and would be opposed to all other players. Possibly even give those players more control over what the monster camps would do.
I know it would be very hard to balance, and comes with its own slew of problems (greifing galore, using monsters to attack your enemies without consequences), but it could satisfy some player's desire to play monster races and produce more/higher quality random sandbox material.
Besides that I am not too sure how you would balance having powerful races mixed in with the 'normal' ones, though the ideas above are good. Just like in a certain tabletop game that is similar to pathfinder, some races are more powerful so choosing ones causes you to level slower.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Besides that I am not too sure how you would balance having powerful races mixed in with the 'normal' ones, though the ideas above are good. Just like in a certain tabletop game that is similar to pathfinder, some races are more powerful so choosing ones causes you to level slower.
True... which also was regarded as highly unbalanced, resulted in far more problems than benefits overall, which is why the concept was one of the first things scrapped from pathfinder. Leveling slower is only fixable via a level cap... which then breaks it again in reverse. For the purpose of PFO you have to immediately think ahead to 4-5 years down the road. You do not want people to think oh crap I would be way better now if I had made a Minotaur 5 years ago... now no matter what I will never be as strong as Jim...
Now to some the hurt early be better later is a fair trade, IE rewards planning etc... In the end that idea also kills the immersion of the game, because if the majority were smart enough to plan we'd also wind up with a world with a majority of civilized minotaurs, LG tiefling sorcerers, hundreds of ogre paladins etc....
The compensation would be to put a cap, IE their abilities start out stronger, but then have a lower cap... which results in the opposite issue. Monstrous races are a huge ever-changing balancing act that requires massive adjustments that change every level.
peneltys, longer time to lern or chrane a skill
as i was saing race, MINOTAUR
penlties, -4int, -2cha, more iron and time is neaddid to make armor
and wepons,
advantiges, gore(horns) more info later, +8 str, +4con, can not be
lost or flat footed,
I came up with the anser you start with better stats but you take 2 times
as long in 3 skills or chang how the hath-orc lucks for the minators.
all my eggzampells are Minotaurs.
Don't overlook the obvious. Is the player looking to obtain some advantage? Is the player ok with the 'skinning' of a minotaur but with the stats of a standard race?
For example. Player X wants to play a minotaur. He begs and pleads with the GM, offering to take penalties to, say charisma or wisdom. slow or less skills, etc. GM gives in, and Player X gets Minotaur character.
Now the player just whips up a minotaur Barbarian, minmaxes the stats, and effectively never suffers from the supposed 'penalties' he took, because what he wanted out of a minotaur, he got. I as a player or gm would have a problem with this, since he's not really looking to play in a group, he's looking to outshine them in, oh say, sheer slaughter.
Instead, if the player would like to roll up a half orc, and roleplay it as a minotaur, I'd be alot more willing to let fly. they're not imbalancing existing rules, and the player's bringing major possibilities in with the character.
I kind of liked the old 3.5 solution of + race levels, but even that's abused.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I just wouldn't like to see player controlled minotaur, trolls, and ogres. I would far rather just have races like goblins and kobolds that don't need a level modifier.
Characters with level modifiers seem like they would be weaker early on in the game but incredibly powerful once they hit capstone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I just wouldn't like to see player controlled minotaur, trolls, and ogres. I would far rather just have races like goblins and kobolds that don't need a level modifier.
Characters with level modifiers seem like they would be weaker early on in the game but incredibly powerful once they hit capstone.
Even those to some extent in an MMO wind up a bit annoying. Mainly just because a significantly disproportionate amount of people wind up with the oddball rarities. Having 1-2 LG paladin goblins in the area at a time, pretty cool. Seeing 25% of the population as LG kobolds/goblins/drow/tieflings = murder on the setting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you were to simply convert the level penalty to skills, then it would be that it takes a little longer to train ALL skills, not just a few.
And that is balanced after they reach capstone how?
Even those to some extent in an MMO wind up a bit annoying. Mainly just because a significantly disproportionate amount of people wind up with the oddball rarities. Having 1-2 LG paladin goblins in the area at a time, pretty cool. Seeing 25% of the population as LG kobolds/goblins/drow/tieflings = murder on the setting.Personally I just wouldn't like to see player controlled minotaur, trolls, and ogres. I would far rather just have races like goblins and kobolds that don't need a level modifier.
Characters with level modifiers seem like they would be weaker early on in the game but incredibly powerful once they hit capstone.
True, but that is just a problem you will run into in any game. People are trying so hard not to conform or be cliche that your standard and sensible characters that would be "the norm" become the exception to the rule.
It's an unfortunate downside of roleplay we'll just have to live with like armies of LG Half-Orcs and fighters with Int, wis, and cha dumped to the minimum possible level but somehow can construct sentences, have decent looking characters, and are coming up with plans for the party to execute.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did anyone ever play LOTRO? I never did much, but as I understand it they had a system were players could play orc/goblins etc... but only as opposition to other players in PVP.
I have seen some stuff on LARPing systems, where new people can play for free as long as they play the random monsters, while others have to pay to play persistent heroes.
Not surprising, since you were effectively volunteering to get boffed on the head.
The point being, I wonder if GW could implement a similar but slightly more in-depth system where a player could choose to play 'monster' races, but they would spawn at monster camp locations and would be opposed to all other players. Possibly even give those players more control over what the monster camps would do.
I know it would be very hard to balance, and comes with its own slew of problems (greifing galore, using monsters to attack your enemies without consequences), but it could satisfy some player's desire to play monster races and produce more/higher quality random sandbox material.
That could solve a lot of issues with monster AI.
Players will start getting lazy, metagaming what they expect the typical orc/goblin response will be, expecting to bunch them up for a fireball, kite them, or draw aggro to a PC that can't be hit.
It'll shake them up, if they start encountering enemies who act with half a brain.
"He ran past the tank! He's hacking the wizard! What's going on?
I'm taunting him, but he's just giving me the finger! This ain't right! It's all going wrong! Flee! FLEE!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you were to simply convert the level penalty to skills, then it would be that it takes a little longer to train ALL skills, not just a few.And that is balanced after they reach capstone how?
Well, it's not like most characters will stop training when they hit capstone.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of being able to distribute our skill training points among a wide variety of expenditures, including accomplishing certain things (like stockpiling scrolls) while offline. I think that reducing that pool of training points is the closest thing you can get to an XP/Leveling penalty. If those training points can also be used to accomplish things other than actual skill training, then the penalty is still a penalty even after the character decides to quit training skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you were to simply convert the level penalty to skills, then it would be that it takes a little longer to train ALL skills, not just a few.And that is balanced after they reach capstone how?Well, it's not like most characters will stop training when they hit capstone.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of being able to distribute our skill training points among a wide variety of expenditures, including accomplishing certain things (like stockpiling scrolls) while offline. I think that reducing that pool of training points is the closest thing you can get to an XP/Leveling penalty. If those training points can also be used to accomplish things other than actual skill training, then the penalty is still a penalty even after the character decides to quit training skills.
Well I believe that the general issue still exists, considering that after capping one archtype your value being gained is more in versatility rather than raw power.
Lets take a hypothetical training example here (obviously totally making up skills since we have no idea of what they are). I am assuming little to no direct stacking of skills because that would completely defy that statement (IE a rogue/ranger/fighter/pali, using a fighters power attack + backstab, on a favored enemy, stacked with smite damage on an evil creature, is obviously insanely powerful, so I am assuming that on any given hit only 1 of those can be applied. Though this character can be more versatile because he could chose which one to apply on any given foe.)
Lets make up a hypothetical ability, barbarian rage smash,
Human barbarian maxing this ability takes 3 months, damage maxed for him will be 100, after that the human spends the next 3 months mastering rogues backstab since his barbarian is maxed now, so say 3 months on backstab, so now he can hit for 125 as long as he can get a shot of the back.
Minotaur barbarian maxing this ability will take 6 months, his maximum damage will be 125, with no regard to conditions (IE no need to hit the back, and works on undeads etc..)
By this hypothetical... the mino's DPS, is still going to be consistantly better than the humans. Basically instead of having the getting more versatile instead of getting more powerful, you've given a loophole to permit people to trade versatility for raw power. Of which in a team MMO, power > Versatility (Having a master of each role, always beats out a team of jack of all trades, because no matter what you are limited by time of casting etc... It's virtually always better to have someone always healing and someone else always damaging, then to have 2 people alternating).
The end result after the first batch of people reach cap and figure this out... Level adjusted monsters will always be the standard. The guides will point this out, and well, we'll have the core non adjusted races, as the minority.
It's an unfortunate downside of roleplay we'll just have to live with like armies of LG Half-Orcs and fighters with Int, wis, and cha dumped to the minimum possible level but somehow can construct sentences, have decent looking characters, and are coming up with plans for the party to execute.
Well yes but most other oddities beyond the races aren't particularly noticeable. Can you give an example of something that is half as in your face as races. Considering this particular example is almost 100% contained just by not making goblin/kobald races for PC. Outside of monsterous races, if a race is 2% better at a certain role, then 75% of people who chose that role will chose that race. Which is expected of the core races.
I really can't see a good argument for monstrous races to be honest. In P&P the point of being a goblin, or kobald adventurer, is to be something rare and unusual in the world. The problem of course is when we are talking player options, once you open it up to the players it is no longer rare or unusual, the entire value of it is completely destroyed by giving it to the players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you were to simply convert the level penalty to skills, then it would be that it takes a little longer to train ALL skills, not just a few.And that is balanced after they reach capstone how?
Who said it was? Are you asking me that because you thought I was saying it's balanced after reaching capstone?
I will say it is a step further in the right direction than simply limiting 3 skills.
You have to have the discussion one point at a time. I was trying to see what reasonable suggestions I could get from the op and then prod him a little further at a time.
But, if you want to read between the lines and put words into my mouth, then I don't see why you bother to read my posts at all. You don't need them to make up stuff for me to say.
Sounds like the discussion you're trying to have with me would be better directed at Nihimun.
If you were to simply convert the level penalty to skills, then it would be that it takes a little longer to train ALL skills, not just a few.And that is balanced after they reach capstone how?Who said it was? Are you asking me that because you thought I was saying it's balanced after reaching capstone?
I will say it is a step further in the right direction than simply limiting 3 skills.
You have to have the discussion one point at a time. I was trying to see what reasonable suggestions I could get from the op and then prod him a little further at a time.
But, if you want to read between the lines and put words into my mouth, then I don't see why you bother to read my posts at all. You don't need them to make up stuff for me to say.
Sounds like the discussion you're trying to have with me would be better directed at Nihimun.
YES YES YES YES YES!
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Goblin Squad Member
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just say no to PC monsters, and even the planar PCs
breaks immersion IMO
now an idea could be to allow customers to play NPC monsters in a non-griefing situation
perhaps, the first couple months for the non4500/9000 that get in, GW could allow them moderated access to the server as goblin/kobold/mite tribes