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Wasn't dueling to the death over matters of honor pretty common in such societies? Surely no one thinks that's appropriate on game night?!Yeah, and I think they also had some rather odd notions about equality, too. All that proper etiquette certainly didn't extend to a pretty large portion of the general population.
Yeah, our modern society is much superior...
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While I agree that hosting a game at your house is not quite the same as entertaining guests. a reaction like that on a reasnable and polite question would be enough to let me reconsider wanting to game with you.
Seriously, there are better ways to make your point than uncalled rudeness.
There you go...my simple reaction would be enough to illuminate that we shouldn't game together. :)
I was being cheeky of course.
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Yeah, our modern society is much superior...Wasn't dueling to the death over matters of honor pretty common in such societies? Surely no one thinks that's appropriate on game night?!Yeah, and I think they also had some rather odd notions about equality, too. All that proper etiquette certainly didn't extend to a pretty large portion of the general population.
You've got most of the population going without in both eras, sure.
But when someone doesn't get invited back to an RPG session and can only think of their wanton milk guzzling and profane speech as the reason, medieval guest etiquette isn't very relevant to the question. Yes, if you're living the pre-industrial countryside, several days travel from any settlement, you pretty well have to feed and clothe anyone who shows up at your doorstep. When they leave, you're expected to give them enough food to travel with. The thing is, I just play D&D, I don't actually live in the Forgotten Realms, so a different standard applies.
The milk sounds like a ridiculous reason to ban someone from your house, and opinions vary on the swearing (I myself cuss like a sailor, but treat gamers, even in my own house, as polite company. Twelve year olds show up from time to time, and when they do I like to have ...fiddlesticks! be the F-word in use at the table), but we've only heard one side of the story here. Knowing nothing of the situation, I'm willing to bet that the milk was the straw that broke the camel's back rather than the seminal incident.
Let's say a new player shows up for game night, uses profanity, and is asked not to. Over the course of that night and the next two, she swears and swears without pause, well in excess of the ten times Gran set as a standard. When the host doesn't extend an invitation for a fourth time, the guest is so totally clueless that she gets on the internet and says, "All I ever did was drink some milk!"
well in excess of the ten times Gran set as a standard.
Aww man, that's me isn't it? I was just called Gran wasn't I? ^.^
"Sit down for some of Gran's home-made porridge, deary! I can feel a storm calling in these ol' bones o' mine."
When the host doesn't extend an invitation for a fourth time, the guest is so totally clueless that she gets on the internet and says, "All I ever did was drink some milk!"
Another fine reason to make it clear why a guest is no longer welcome, instead of passive aggressively letting the GM deliver the message without understanding.
If we host a gaming group, we offer what we think the guests would want. Of course, they are free to ask for different stuff, but we take the liberty to deny the wish if, say, it is sunday and we only have a small amount of milk left, just enough for my coffee on monday morning. I do not consider it appropriate behaviour of a guest (no matter if a gaming group or family visit) to go and take things out of the fridge until I tell him to. But then, most folks I game with would not behave like that. If we were to host a game with new gamers and one of them would serve himself like that repeatedly, I would tell him and expect him to respect my wishes. If he did not, I would not invite him again. Chances are, folks who behave like that probably have other habits or a personality that would not be agreeable with me, so that there are probably more reasons to not invite him again.
And if we agree to split the costs for food, I would expect the new guy to pay his due. With good friends, I would have no problem with paying for them, as they will either refund me next time or pay for me next time.
As for cursing - well, I´m using curse words occasionally as well, but if I would have a player using them all the time, when every second word is a curse, I probably would not like that as well.
I´m using male pronouns here on purpose - IME, male gamers most often show behaviour that is - lets say, socially questionable. That is not to say that there aren´t boorish women, but it is IME less common.
Stefan
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To answer the OPs question: In my book, yes. Disregarding the hosts wishes and not keeping the agreements (payment) is the very definition of being a bad guest to me. The way the hosts dealt with it - via proxy - may not have been the most straightforward way, but that is another point entirely and has nothing to do with the original question. Who knows, maybe the host was so irate about it all that he did not want to confront his former guest in person, because that might have resulted in a very impolite exchange.
Stefan
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Odysseus had some things to say about guests helping themselves too freely to his things, didn't he?If your definition of "guests" is "guys who have laid siege to my household and want to ball my wife," then I suspect the disagreement here is deeper than just whether a guy can have a glass of milk...
I think it had less to do with the wife and as much, or more, to do with helping themselves immoderately to his house and goods. Not that it had nothing to do with Penelope, of course - but the fact that they were helping themselves to someone else's household* and ignoring the interim host when he tried to stop them** seems to be the failing more often emphasized in the poem.
(*/** - see quotes below)So while it may have been more than a glass of milk... it had everything to do with helping themselves to the host's food and drink regardless of his wishes ;)
Listen to me,
bold suitors, who've been ravaging this home
with your incessant need for food and drink*,
since my husband's now been so long absent.
The only story you could offer up
as an excuse is that you all desire
to marry me and take me as your wife.
"Here I am, my friend.
Stop! And tell your father to restrain himself,
in case, as he exults in his great power,
he slaughters me with that sharp bronze of his,
in his fury with the suitors, those men
who consumed his goods here in his own hall,
those fools who did not honour you at all**."
Some people are mentally ill for real. You just have to ask them to
leave, and ignore them forever after that.
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Some people are mentally ill for real. You just have to ask them to
leave, and ignore them forever after that..
If someone is mentally ill, that's all the more reason to be understanding and patient.
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There's a line, like most things.
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Given that OP jumped ship on page one, can we just assume he was posessed by a milk-hungry demon and move on? :P
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Yeah, there's a point where you have to just protect yourself and your family and home.
What's more, there's a line waaaay before that where you need to look at whether or not people are worth investing in. A person who has issues does not necessarily deserve your time just because they have issues.
I've spent a long time locked in some pretty terrible situations by trying to give people second chances because they had serious issues. In the end, I still think they need help, just not from me.
In the current context, I will dust off the old chestnut: "Never game with people you would not otherwise want to spend an evening with."
This includes people with social disorders... if you have history with them, or they're family, or you have some connection, it can be worth it. But the bonds of playership alone are and should be very loose, socially.
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::kicks horse::
It's not dead yet!
*stabs it*
And now?
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Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure
Where the hell is Bishop?!
There's a line, like most things.
I know all to well about that line, but I feel that most people draw that line prematurely. They don't take the time to see if the person can be helped. They spend too much time worrying about their own. Sometimes all it takes is a little compassion. My experience has taught me to not shun the social rejects. I've ended up with some of the best friends ever by showing kindness to someone who the world would shun away.
There's a line, like most things.I know all to well about that line, but I feel that most people draw that line prematurely. They don't take the time to see if the person can be helped. They spend too much time worrying about their own. Sometimes all it takes is a little compassion. My experience has taught me to not shun the social rejects. I've ended up with some of the best friends ever by showing kindness to someone who the world would shun away.
Take, for instance, a pathological liar. Maybe they only lie about silly things, and they are so outlandish that no real harm is done.
I am not going to befriend this person, and they are not going to join my game, even though what they have is a social disorder they need help with. If asked why I'm shutting them out, I'll tell them it is because of the lies.
Unless I have some prior connection to that person, it simply isn't worth it. They may have a beautiful mind, but these games take a lot of effort and trust which is not to be wasted on people who violate that trust.
Likewise, Asperger's is a real thing, albeit over-diagnosed. But those who claim to suffer from the mild end of that spectrum have to learn how to function in social situations, or at least take ownership of errors they have made. In my own life, I've seen such people offend others seriously and then use their diagnosis as a shield to avoid having to apologize or make amends. That's not Aspergers, that's being a dick. They may well also have Aspergers as a separate thing, and I am in no way implying that this behavior is universal among those afflicted.
I've lost so much time to people I was trying to help before realizing that they need to seek help, and that effort would not lead them to me. The best I can do these days is redirect them to someone qualified as fast as possible and stay the hell out of their lives.
As I said above, our fridge was open to guests. Including gamer guests.
I wouldn't tell a hungry person 'tough luck'.
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I read the first page, saw 8 more, and skipped to page 9. Forgive me if this has come up already.
Reading this has made me realize that I have socially inept tendencies myself. I think the OP was in the wrong, but I can also see myself easily falling into something similar. I was particularly struck by an early on post that said "you're either completely inept or you have a social disorder."
Well hey, I game with a group. I'd prefer to not look like I have a social disorder. So here's a question: What resources are available to allow me to know all those unspoken rules of conduct that I would be silently judged by but never informed of because I should already know them?
If gamers have a reputation for being socially awkward/inept, are there any gamers here who have self-helped themselves into polite society? What resources did you use to do it?
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I read the first page, saw 8 more, and skipped to page 9. Forgive me if this has come up already.
Reading this has made me realize that I have socially inept tendencies myself. I think the OP was in the wrong, but I can also see myself easily falling into something similar. I was particularly struck by an early on post that said "you're either completely inept or you have a social disorder."
Well hey, I game with a group. I'd prefer to not look like I have a social disorder. So here's a question: What resources are available to allow me to know all those unspoken rules of conduct that I would be silently judged by but never informed of because I should already know them?
If gamers have a reputation for being socially awkward/inept, are there any gamers here who have self-helped themselves into polite society? What resources did you use to do it?
I'd disagree that the guy has a disorder but mainly:
1) if you owe money, pay it. Excuse don't really do much but annoy people
2) someone allowing you into their fridge is their choice. if they place a restriction on it- abide by it. No exceptions.
3) whether you agree with the hosts rules on language- abide by them or leave. Most folks will usually not mind the occasional slip or two but just running rough shod when they've asked you to hold your tongue usually isn't the best way to get asked back.
In short-
Be nice. Don't be a jerk. Follow the rules of the host. If you have a fear you are being a jerk- send your DM an e-mail and ask about it.
I've done this before even over something as simple as a comment that i was later afraid might have been taken the wrong way.
-S
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I didn't mean to imply that the OP had a disorder. I simply meant that to the people responding to him from the first page, some of the people said that he LOOKED that way judging by his behavior. Also that I myself do not wish to look that way to anyone I game with (or anyone else, for that matter).
I think the particular infractions have been clarified pretty well. But more generally, how do you know when you're being a good guest? Or even what polite behavior across a game shop table is?
Sure, a lot of it is empathy and common sense. Treat others as you want to be treated. But sometimes how you want to be treated is an aberration. That's why I was hoping for a book/website/whatever that says "hey you! This is how common people are expected to behave. This is all that stuff your mother was trying to tell you when you were young."
I could go track down whatever the latest edition of Ms. Manners is, but I'm trying for something more practical than 'how to serve a formal tea.' That's why I thought someone in the community might be able to share something that they have found helpful.
Behave in a way that would keep you from getting fired from a normal job is generally a pretty good thing to keep in mind. So for example, if you are having a meeting with your boss in their office, you probably shouldn't be passing gas and burping. Not doing that at the game table would probably be a good idea. Etc.
I didn't mean to imply that the OP had a disorder. I simply meant that to the people responding to him from the first page, some of the people said that he LOOKED that way judging by his behavior. Also that I myself do not wish to look that way to anyone I game with (or anyone else, for that matter).
I think the particular infractions have been clarified pretty well. But more generally, how do you know when you're being a good guest? Or even what polite behavior across a game shop table is?
Sure, a lot of it is empathy and common sense. Treat others as you want to be treated. But sometimes how you want to be treated is an aberration. That's why I was hoping for a book/website/whatever that says "hey you! This is how common people are expected to behave. This is all that stuff your mother was trying to tell you when you were young."
I could go track down whatever the latest edition of Ms. Manners is, but I'm trying for something more practical than 'how to serve a formal tea.' That's why I thought someone in the community might be able to share something that they have found helpful.
hmm its a good question.. i'm not sure how to give a good answer that doesn't revolve around examples on how a person may or may not have been raised. (such as "would your mother let you do that" or whatever)
hmm. hmm hmm hmm.
1) Ask. Few folks will be offended if you ask before doing something. "can I have a glass of milk" or "hey do you have a bowl i can use to put some pretzels into" can go a long way, rather than just assuming they do or that you can, and helping yourself.
2) Watch others. When coming into a new home, look for things like shoes at the door or folks going around rugs. Look for signs of animals and/or little children. Watch what the rest of the group does and act accordingly until you are sure how things run.
3) Listen. Often, folks with uncommon, weird, or strange rules will take time to tell them to you. Listen to them. However stupid you think the rules are *the home owner* clearly disagrees and thinks they are important.
I've been asked before to take off my shoes coming into a house. In fact, i've been asked more than once. (was uncommon enough that I'd forget. I was gently reminded until I remembered.)
4) If you say you'll do something- do it. While 5 bucks for pizza may not sound like a big deal- telling someone you'll bring the cash next time and then not doing so is essentially stealing from 'em. If you are afraid you'll forget, just toss a 5 into your bag at the next opportunity so it'll be there the next time you game. Even if its 2 months away. If you still forget, make a point yourself to get the guy(s) paid back ASAP.
In general its not so much about the 5 bucks for most people, imo. its about being a friend. Your friend loaned you something, you give it back.
If you loaned them a book- wouldn't you expect its return without having to harrass the heck out of them? Yes you probably would. Why would pizza money be any different?
5) Be clean, be prompt, and give as much warning as possible if you can't make a session.
Be clean shouldn't have to be listed- but sadly, it does. Shower. Deodorant. Clean clothes. Prompt. show up on time, or as close to ontime as possible. Sure traffic happens sometimes but that should be the exception not the rule.
If you can't make it- let them know when you know. And let 'em know why.
Funeral? Illness? just not feeling up to hanging out? Whatever the reason- let 'em know when you know. This is especially important now-a-days that folks are often traveling a long way to the game.
(my DM travels about an hour 1 way to our game when we have it, and I've heard some folks on the boards with greater distances than that. a last minute cancellation wastes a ton of time and gas.)
6) Be nice to others regardless of how you want to be treated.
can't think of any others off hand.
-S
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Personally I think "how would I like to be treated" isnt necessarily going to be a fruitful approach for someone who self-identifies as socially inept. Chances are you wont be offended by stuff that other people easily could be. (I'd hazard a guess that this is part of the problem the long-departed OP experienced).
I think the best approach is to err on the side of cautious and try to read how other people are reacting to you. Some people are sticklers, others less so. There isnt really a way to know who is who without either watching them or flat out asking. If you can't tell when people are happy/uncomfortable/grumpy/whatever then the only way to get better at it is by practising. Analysing behaviour and trying to deduce underlying rules in the abstract is unlikely to work, imo.
Most of my friends are fine with me pushing open their front door to announce myself if I'm visiting - with new friends (even if they're in the same social group) I'm much more likely to knock for the first few visits and (eventually) outright ask if they care if people do or dont knock or whether it's cool to just walk in when you're expected anyhow.
Most of my friends are fine with me pushing open their front door to announce myself if I'm visiting - with new friends (even if they're in the same social group) I'm much more likely to knock for the first few visits and (eventually) outright ask if they care if people do or dont knock or whether it's cool to just walk in when you're expected anyhow.
Holy... seriously, what sort of Utopian society do you live in? I wouldn't do that even with a written invitation. Be careful, sincerely!
Mystically Inclined - has there been a problem thus far?
I'm in Australia. I wouldnt say it was universal, but it's pretty common to leave one's doors unlocked and for regular visitors to just let themselves in.
I'm talking about people I've know for years, not just casual acquaintances. Certainly I wouldnt expect my gaming group to knock if we were playing at my house.
I just need to move:)
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Likewise, Asperger's is a real thing, albeit over-diagnosed. But those who claim to suffer from the mild end of that spectrum have to learn how to function in social situations, or at least take ownership of errors they have made. In my own life, I've seen such people offend others seriously and then use their diagnosis as a shield to avoid having to apologize or make amends. That's not Aspergers, that's being a dick. They may well also have Aspergers as a separate thing, and I am in no way implying that this behavior is universal among those afflicted.
I have Aspergers and I agree 100%. You can't use it as an excuse for bad behavior.
I have offended people because of my lack of social skills. But I always apologize and I make sure to never do what I did to offend again, to anyone.
I have told the people I am close with about my AS, so they can understand my quirky behavior. But I don't use it as a get out of jail free card. Its so they understand how I see things. Once they knew about my AS, most would talk more time to explain social behavior, ect..
I'm alot better now at social stuff then I was. Its all learned, and I'll never stop learning.
Sorry for the hijack.
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Likewise, Asperger's is a real thing, albeit over-diagnosed. But those who claim to suffer from the mild end of that spectrum have to learn how to function in social situations, or at least take ownership of errors they have made. In my own life, I've seen such people offend others seriously and then use their diagnosis as a shield to avoid having to apologize or make amends. That's not Aspergers, that's being a dick. They may well also have Aspergers as a separate thing, and I am in no way implying that this behavior is universal among those afflicted.
I have Aspergers and I agree 100%. You can't use it as an excuse for bad behavior.
I have offended people because of my lack of social skills. But I always apologize and I make sure to never do what I did to offend again, to anyone.
I have told the people I am close with about my AS, so they can understand my quirky behavior. But I don't use it as a get out of jail free card. Its so they understand how I see things. Once they knew about my AS, most would talk more time to explain social behavior, ect..
I'm alot better now at social stuff then I was. Its all learned, and I'll never stop learning.
Sorry for the hijack.
No problem. I'm happy that you weren't offended by my post!
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Yep - also Australian and similar experience.I'm in Australia. I wouldnt say it was universal, but it's pretty common to leave one's doors unlocked and for regular visitors to just let themselves in.
I'm talking about people I've know for years, not just casual acquaintances. Certainly I wouldnt expect my gaming group to knock if we were playing at my house.
Eh, that's not uncommon here (I'm in Oregon, USA)
I think we lock doors more often now (and always when leaving), but usually, when I'm at home, my front door is unlocked.
Regular guests have been given permission to knock/announce/enter without waiting for someone to come to the door, it's not a big deal. Several friends I visit operate the same way.
If, for whatever reason, that's going to create an issue, I can lock the door, and then, obviously, they'll have to wait.
There you go J Christopher - moving to Oregon is probably easier for you than Australia. :)
I'm in Texas, and I wouldn't say we routinely leave our doors unlocked here.
But on game night, the door is usually unlocked. A "knock and announce" as onee's walking through the door isn't uncommon as long as the lights are on and folks are milling about inside.
If I were to go to his house on another day though I'd assume I'd knock, wait, and all that. For us- its mostly a game night convenience than a "door's always open just wander on in".
-S
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Texas too. After almost a year of a regular game at a fellow gamer's house, I arrived and saw another of the regular players was already there, and the door was unlocked, so I walked in. I then got cussed out by the homeowner, and was rather nonplussed.
I would have knocked and waited to be let in if either:
1. It was not our normal gameday
2. I was the first player to arrive
I am happy to follow homeowner requests, but felt rather abused that instead of the homeowner requesting I not enter without being invited in at any time, I got yelled at. :\
I talked to some other friends to try to determine if I'd committed a major rudeness that is generally understood to be a bad idea, but they seemed shocked at the reaction too, so I don't know.
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I have to say, I'd probably have been slightly bent if someone that I hadn't given prior permission had just walked in.
Myself, I wouldn't have walked in without express permission.
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Yup. As I said, so did this guy. I personally assume that if I am hosting a long standing weekly engagement, if my door is unlocked the regular members will just walk in. If I don't want them to, I lock the door. Some mutual friends said they would do the same as I. So you try not to offend by avoiding doing things that would bother you, but there are still sometimes missteps.
I would encourage a little tolerance and an effort at communication, in general. Cussing and yelling at me for entering without being let in is very clear, communication-wise, but not very tolerant. I almost left the game over it. As I was GMing, that wouldn't have been good. I do wish he'd just asked me not to do that again instead.
Texas too. After almost a year of a regular game at a fellow gamer's house, I arrived and saw another of the regular players was already there, and the door was unlocked, so I walked in. I then got cussed out by the homeowner, and was rather nonplussed.
I would have knocked and waited to be let in if either:
1. It was not our normal gameday
2. I was the first player to arriveI am happy to follow homeowner requests, but felt rather abused that instead of the homeowner requesting I not enter without being invited in at any time, I got yelled at. :\
I talked to some other friends to try to determine if I'd committed a major rudeness that is generally understood to be a bad idea, but they seemed shocked at the reaction too, so I don't know.
That kinda thing is really weird.
I've been in games not far from here where we all showed up at the door and knocked and waited and didn't enter until they opened the door.Been at other games where it was knock/announce as you walk in.
Not sure I've seen anyone yelled at about it either way though.
-S
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I think it's nice to see people willing to examine themselves objectively in this thread, such as Mystically Inclined above, as well as the OP for the most part, although he has gotten defensive at times.
I myself have a mood disorder (bi-polar) and an unusual set of values and standards, so I have to remember that for me the "Golden Rule" doesn't go far enough. I have to try to treat people the way they want to be treated, not the way I want to be treated.
There's no shame in being different, but sometimes you have to adapt.
I might not mind people making themselves at home if I hosted a game, but it isn't useful for me to tell the OP that, because I am not most people. OP needs to learn what society expects, and hopefully that's what he came here to do, and not just to look for validation for his aberrant behavior.
@Jess: Sounds like you almost walked in on a "private" session based on the described reaction.
Kansas here. During the weekly game time, I fully expect my players to just walk in. A knock before is fine, but I don't want them to ring the doorbell for a couple of reasons. (1)If my wife is taking a nap, it will wake her up. (2)For years we rented and folks from the landlord would ring, knock, and then enter; so our cat associates doorbells with strangers invading the home and runs and hides. We don't like to stress the cat out unnecessarily. But I would never cuss someone out for just walking in during game time or ring the doorbell. I would probably do the following:
Session 1: "You don't need to ring the door bell, just come on in if the door is unlocked."
Session 2: "I left the door unlocked, just come on in. We don't like people ringing the bell."
Session 3: "Please stop ringing the bell."
Session 4: Meets gamer at the door before they can ring the bell, "Nice to see you, come on in."
Session 5: "Really, stop ringing the bell it bothers the family, ok. Thanks."
After that point, I don't know what I'd do as it has never reached past step 3.
On the other hand, during last Christmas season we got a bell that goes on the door knob (ring goes over the door knob and the bell hangs down from it). We discovered we liked it so much that we would know when someone went through that door that we have left it on permanently.
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@Jess: Sounds like you almost walked in on a "private" session based on the described reaction.
I really don't think so, but heck, who knows? I would never, as the first guest to arrive, just walk in without express permission, but as the first guest had already been let in the house, I figured the homeowner wasn't in the shower or on the john or engaged in any sort of private time activity.
Texas here, too, but raised in a family with a lot of cops, military, a couple of violent crime recipients, and hunters. So they're all armed to the teeth, and the cops made everyone else paranoid via osmosis a long time ago. I have had people yell at me to come on in, but I will pretend not to have heard until someone opens the door:) That's my baseline normal, which now seems weird since I sort of assumed that most other people from here experienced a similar vibe.
Well when the first few get to my place, I usually am close by to answer the door and/or say "Come on in!" But if someone gets there 15 minutes or later after everyone, well by that time I am entertaining them in the game room (in the basement) and may or may not here their knock.