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Because presumably if you're in a dungeon or otherwise monster-occupied area, you are invading and if they find you they'll try to kill you, capture you, or drive you out.
Monsters presumably patrol their lairs, or have minions/troops who do so, especially if groups in the area got in combat earlier. The enemies presumably talk to each other, spread the word of invading opponents. It makes perfect sense for them to be looking for the PCs. Again, they're intruders.
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Society play also puts people in this mind set. You all set off fresh, have 2 or 3 encounters and one big one at the end. This tends to make people who play martial characters hate on the casters since they no longer have to really ration thier abilities.
To stop this, give your characters a reason to have a sense of urgency.They are being chased by a large search party, they have to get to point A in X amount of time or _ happens.
Because presumably if you're in a dungeon or otherwise monster-occupied area, you are invading and if they find you they'll try to kill you, capture you, or drive you out.
Monsters presumably patrol their lairs, or have minions/troops who do so, especially if groups in the area got in combat earlier. The enemies presumably talk to each other, spread the word of invading opponents. It makes perfect sense for them to be looking for the PCs. Again, they're intruders.
But that's not really reflected by wandering monsters.
That would be, the orc patrol comes along, spots the pcs, either sneaks away to come back with the full strength of the tribe or, if spotted, blows horns or other signals to summon help.
For the more intelligent types, sure. For the more brutish/stupid, charging the party for the chance of a free meal, to be "the one who got the humans dead", or similar intents would perfectly justify a roving group attacking the party rather than going back for aid/more troops.
I should probably preface this: I've almost never had problems with the "15 minute adventuring day" in my games. The few times I have was when the players dove in at something well over their heads (either due to their poor judgement or my mistake balancing encounters, usually), and those events have been few and far between. So I can't speak from experience for a lot of DMs who have this problem with their players.
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Why not?
Sometimes the PCs have that advantage.
The GM has all sorts of tools for limiting the rest available to the party... soft timers, hard timers, reactive NPCs...
But if there's always such a constraint on everything the PCs do, then the players will start to feel that the world is contrived against them. So, like all aspects of GMing, the thing to do is include everything sometimes. Keep it dynamic and unpredictable.
Once in a while, throw the players up against a challenge that is best surmounted with patience and rest as part of the plan. Make it so hard they need a 15 minute adventuring day to beat it. Then laugh hysterically if they bite off more than they can chew because they imagined their own timers and limitations.
Don't always steal the spell book, but sometimes steal the spell book. Don't always use a hostage to imply a timer, but sometimes do it. Don't always allow mid-dungeon rest without consequence, but at least once is okay.
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Because not everyone plays D&D exactly as you do.
Because sometimes it makes sense, given the circumstances.
Because some of us find it tiring to play a constant metagame of keep-away [from the 5 MWD] with our players.
Take your pick. Relax. Widen your mind. :)
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That would be, the orc patrol comes along, spots the pcs, either sneaks away to come back with the full strength of the tribe or, if spotted, blows horns or other signals to summon help.Welcome to my game.
Yeah, it's a random ENCOUNTER, not a random ATTACK. If a lone Kobold encounters a sleeping party of five adventurers, he's not going to attack them himself. He's gonna go get his buddies...or possibly even some of the more dangerous monsters in the dungeon.
Yeah, it's a random ENCOUNTER, not a random ATTACK. If a lone Kobold encounters a sleeping party of five adventurers, he's not going to attack them himself. He's gonna go get his buddies...or possibly even some of the more dangerous monsters in the dungeon.That would be, the orc patrol comes along, spots the pcs, either sneaks away to come back with the full strength of the tribe or, if spotted, blows horns or other signals to summon help.Welcome to my game.
Or merely get spotted by the players and flee, forever convincing them that a local tribe of kobolds has some effect on the plot.
Or perhaps he makes his stealth check, and only one player comes even close and so he "hears something in the bushes" but silence ever after.
After a few sessions of this behavior, players learn to take everything in stride and to act like the game is a living, breathing world instead of a single-player computer RPG.
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Back on the issue of the 15 minute adventuring day, I should say that I really dislike when this is the presumed tactic of the PCs. It's okay once in a while, but by and large it is the GM's job to challenge the players, and letting them run out the clock every session is a failure of that mission.
In my experience, if you have multiple casters in the party, or even one caster played by a player who "knows casters", then the GM needs to know his timers every bit as well as he knows any other part of the story — the BBEG's name, the adventure hook, all that.
So the real answer to the OP's question may well be: Ignorance of timers, both their importance and means of execution.
Maybe in previous games, the casters didn't learn good resource management, and now you're the one teaching them?
Or maybe they've gotten hit so hard, so often, they are trying to turtle?
Or perhaps they're not translating well from video games to tabletop RPGs?
Or maybe no one wants to convert their 12th level wizard into an equivalent level commoner for however long it is before they get a proper night's rest?
1. Some people don't play for game for the challenge. The only care about the story or socializing.
2. Some just never think about how a place would be guarded, and that not noticing missing guards(monsters) is not likely. <filed under tactics>
3. Some have worlds that run on the PC's time instead of worlds where things happen no matter what the PC's do.
4.Other reason that other people can come up with.
I don't necessarily support 1-3, but I have seen them all presented before.
A more usual question is how you prevent the constant resting. There are lots of spells like Hide Campsite that make resting safe, and at higher levels things like Teleport let you avoid any encounter you don't want to participate in and get to your destination in no time.
You can get around it to some extent by giving the PCs strict time limits and bad consequences if they're late, but that has negative side effects too; it makes it impossible to engage in side quests, hang out at the inn, or craft magical items.
The 15 minute day can be fun as well - you just have to make sure all the battles are against such deadly foes that the party wouldn't dream of holding back on using their strongest powers.
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Some days it is 15 minutes, other days it can be a bunch of hours.
There are a lot of reasons/ways the 15 minute day wont cut it, the trick to pacing is to not let the party 100% know what they are in for; if things get 'way out of hand' from time to time they start self-pacing quite a lot.
The BBEG's don't run to the party timetable, they have their own times and agendas.
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Why not?
Sometimes the PCs have that advantage.
The GM has all sorts of tools for limiting the rest available to the party... soft timers, hard timers, reactive NPCs...
But if there's always such a constraint on everything the PCs do, then the players will start to feel that the world is contrived against them. So, like all aspects of GMing, the thing to do is include everything sometimes. Keep it dynamic and unpredictable.
Once in a while, throw the players up against a challenge that is best surmounted with patience and rest as part of the plan. Make it so hard they need a 15 minute adventuring day to beat it. Then laugh hysterically if they bite off more than they can chew because they imagined their own timers and limitations.
Don't always steal the spell book, but sometimes steal the spell book. Don't always use a hostage to imply a timer, but sometimes do it. Don't always allow mid-dungeon rest without consequence, but at least once is okay.
So many good suggestions for in-game solutions.
Another good one is the "X will happen in Y days". This applies more to story campaigns than hex or dungeon crawls. As a player, I've had very satisfying TPKs where the party knew 100% that doing that last encounter would probably cost us our lives, but we did it anyway because we weren't sure how much time we had left before the BBEG's scheme came to fruition. Being a hero is hard, otherwise we would call them commoners.
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Maybe in previous games, the casters didn't learn good resource management, and now you're the one teaching them?
Or maybe they've gotten hit so hard, so often, they are trying to turtle?
Or perhaps they're not translating well from video games to tabletop RPGs?
Or maybe no one wants to convert their 12th level wizard into an equivalent level commoner for however long it is before they get a proper night's rest?
How's a 15 minute adventuring day going to teach anyone good resource management?
Well, if they are not translating well, 15 minute adventuring day isn't going to help anybody at all.
If a 12th level wizard blows through his most powerful spells on a random encounter or two, even though he knows that a dangerous foe or a dungeon or something like that is nearby, he deserves to have his butt handed to him for poor planing.
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Different groups play with different styles -- different Players want to play different ways. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a 15 minute day just like there's nothing intrinsically wrong with a long day.
For me, I prefer "nearly" 15 minute day (but more like, er, 25 minutes?) to a long, long day.
The "13 Encounter Day" makes it harder to design accurate encounters whereas if they're going for the short day I know exactly what they're gonna do so I can more accurately prepare. With the long day some of the fights WILL be way too easy and that's not fun AND there's a really good chance that near the end any fight will be too much for them.
Also, the "13 Encounter Day" makes it harder for me to put the BBEG where I want him. In a "4 Encounter Day" This becomes much easier.
.... But I certainly try not to become too predictable. Occasionally I'll stretch a 3 or 4 encounter day to maybe 8 or 9 encounters.
Maybe in previous games, the casters didn't learn good resource management, and now you're the one teaching them?
Or maybe they've gotten hit so hard, so often, they are trying to turtle?
Or perhaps they're not translating well from video games to tabletop RPGs?
Or maybe no one wants to convert their 12th level wizard into an equivalent level commoner for however long it is before they get a proper night's rest?
Be fair now, a 12th level commoner has fewer weapon proficiencies, can't cast at-will cantrips, and doesn't have an arcane bond or school benefits (if I see a 12th level commoner teleport away with dimensional steps or have innate elemental resistance, I'd be concerned). :)
Also, it'd take AWHILE before a 12th level wizard ran out of spells and had nothing left--if a single fight took every spell a 12th level wizard had to resolve it, I'd say the PCs deserved a rest after that one! ;p
As to the OP's question:
Why do DMs allow a 15-minute Adventuring Day?
Dunno. Never seen it happen in real life.
And never seen players insist on it either, in a way that the GM has to resist it. Hell, I think I've recalled at least two instances of players really wanting to push on and me-as-GM trying to hint that they really could use some downtime about now...
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By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.
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I've never run into the 15-minute adventure day at my tables or those where I've played. The 15 minute day, at least to me, is a game where the GM maybe doesn't have a decent enough grasp of what's challenging for the group.
Besides, any fight where the 12th level Wizard is using their most potent magic has companions that are quite handy with there weapons, ALL OF WHOM ARE CONTRIBUTING TO MAKING A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE CLAMOROUS RACKET!! - Fireballs/Lightning Bolts/Cone of Cold/Ice Storm/Shout are NOT quiet; swords and axes slamming into other weapons/shield/armor are NOT quiet; People who fight in mundane ways are NOT quiet in combat. It's bound to draw attention for other things in the area with just the noise, the smell of blood will draw other predators, not necessarily monsters. Also, if the PCs are showing themselves to be a threat to the BBEGs plans, they will either allow them to come to them in there well defended and PREPARED LAIR or they will move against the PCs themselves striking when they're at their most vulnerable - after they've been softened up by an encounter and undoubtedly have some way to prevent the PCs from fleeing or have the ability to pursue.
Now, unless a fight is occuring within the confines of a Silence effect, something is bound to notice what is going on, IF anything else is in the area.
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Random encounters tend to be non-sensical. For me, they break immersion, unless they are planned well enough to make sense with the locale. And if they're that planned out, they aren't really random, are they?
It doesn't make sense for a party to get ambushed by three different bands of orc in the night, only to move a mile down the road in the morning and find a human village.
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By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.
Of course, if the random encounter is with something intelligent, they might just decide to ambush the adventurers coming out of the rope trick. After all, a rope hanging out of a small portal in the air is a pretty good sign that there's someone hanging out in there...and probably with some fancy equipment / treasure.
Random encounters tend to be non-sensical. For me, they break immersion, unless they are planned well enough to make sense with the locale. And if they're that planned out, they aren't really random, are they?
It doesn't make sense for a party to get ambushed by three different bands of orc in the night, only to move a mile down the road in the morning and find a human village.
On the flip side, TOZ, they can be a great way for GMs to include consistent flora and fauna in a setting. I think Kingmaker stands as a really good example of this.
I do rather wish that the random "encounters" in most products were something a bit more nuanced than random monsters only... but the GMG tables are the cure for that.
With all that said in defense of random encounters, I think they're probably the single weakest tool to use against the 15 minute adventuring day. At the point in a campaign where you seriously have to worry about maintaining pressure on the party, teleportation is the problem. That thwarts random and planned encounters alike.
By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.
The rope can not be hidden* meaning that in most situations the bad guys can use it also to clime into the extradimensional area.
*I am sure there are ways around this or ways to make the rope nigh inaccessible, but the spell is not the freebie it once was.
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By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.Of course, if the random encounter is with something intelligent, they might just decide to ambush the adventurers coming out of the rope trick. After all, a rope hanging out of a small portal in the air is a pretty good sign that there's someone hanging out in there...and probably with some fancy equipment / treasure.
Not if you pay for an invisible rope, by having permeantancy and invisible.
I think random encounters can be done, they just have to be limited, and not all of them have to be hostile.
3 bands of orcs is too much. 1 band is not so bad, as long as it does not happen every time the PC's travel.
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On the flip side, TOZ, they can be a great way for GMs to include consistent...Consistent. As in, not random.
Reading the rest, I think we agree.
Hoo boy, if you think consistency and randomness at odds, they might have a seat for you in congress...
I'm of two minds on the issue, honestly. Mechanics that keep even the GM guessing can be great, but there's a specific kind of campaign that needs such a rule...
But just because it's randomized doesn't mean it is a total non-sequitor! It just means that if you spend time in that particular place, neither you nor the the GM knows for certain what's going to come at you. Kinda cool. Should it be mandatory? Hell no. Does it solve the problem of resting-on-demand that we're discussing... maybe there's a narrow sliver of level/party-makeup combinations for which it does.
But if you are really having this problem, you need to get acquainted with the big three timers:
- soft timers (they have a hostage, so we can't tarry)
- hard timers (the ritual will be complete on the sunset of the third day! we can't be crafting items now!)
- reactive NPCs (the enemy wizard knows we attacked his fort — scry sensors spotted every day, he's gonna hit us at the worst possible time, let's hit him first.)
I try to use each of these some of the time to keep it from getting predictable. Sometimes use more than one. Very occasionally, use none, and let the players go nova, retreat, rest, repeat. Honestly, it can be fun to see just how hard they can hit one encounter.
You need to keep some kind of pressure on to get the rules functioning in line with the original (somewhat silly) design assumptions and CR. Optionally, you can pitch the CR assumptions out the window and eyeball everything... this is harder for new GMs to do, but the result is WAY more fun.
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Of course, if the random encounter is with something intelligent, they might just decide to ambush the adventurers coming out of the rope trick. After all, a rope hanging out of a small portal in the air is a pretty good sign that there's someone hanging out in there...and probably with some fancy equipment / treasure.
Not if you pay for an invisible rope, by having permeantancy and invisible.
The rope can not be hidden* meaning that in most situations the bad guys can use it also to clime into the extradimensional area.
What he said.
By 7th or 8th level, a smart party can no longer be threatened with the prospect of random encounters in the middle of the night while they sleep, thanks to reliable access to Rope Trick. Heck, if you memorize it twice you can be immune by level 3 or 4.
*Upon seeing the rope hanging from the air, Nic-Nak the Kobold[or other level appropreate intelligent social creature] scout returns to his tribe, and describes the strange hanging rope to their shaman. He being knowledgable for a kobold, gathers up all the warriors he can and returns to the site of the rope trick and quickly build up a large bonfire under the rope. The shaman and several and several non-warrior members of the tribe stand ready to light the fire with magic and alchemist fire. When the adventures poke their heads out the Kobolds cheer, lighting the fire, and shooting at the emerging adventurers. Ofcause its a large bonfire, so the adventures must either try and escape from on high or deal with the vast number of spread out kobolds, and the less than ideal fighting conditions, or fall into the fire when the spell comes to an end.*
Such a utterly stupid and dangerous(to it's users) spell. I don't think I have ever played a character stupid enough to climb up into one of those death traps. Those characters would wouldn't think to worry about such things have usually not trusted magic enough to climb up into such a pocket.
Fortunately, I don't think I have actually ever seen a rope trick used in actual play, so its never become an issue.
Geez, what an annoying line.
'So does that mean I can't cast the spell in a dark room'?
I've never understood the nerf that was installed on Rope Trick. I'm assuming that it was an attempt to prevent the "nova then rest" scenario. It's a failure I think in that regard since there are so many other spells that do the same thing or create an equivalent effect.
The "invisible magical rope", bypass is funny. It's not RAI buts it's a legitimate loophole.
On the 15 minute day; it's a myth. Rather it's a misconstruction of theorycrafters on the forums. It's a fallacy put forward by players (not true dedicated GMs) who only view the game in a tactical simulationist setting.
Taken literally a "15 minute day" is 150 rounds of combat, that's more actual combat than most 8 encounter per day games.
Now a single combat day, that I can believe in. I use them all the time, with almost no negative impact on either challenge or fun. Good players in a 4+ man group will never let even a tough encounter hit 10 rounds. So resource management is a dull argument.
To put my perspective on it, in a single combat day, the full casters will never get to "blow their wads" but they MIGHT run out of hit points. The Martials however will probably get to use their main feats, some of their supplemental feats and at least 1 if not 2 of their primary class features. The hybrid classes will get to do some cool stuff, but they don't get to go nova either.
That sounds like it's the casters who are getting the short stick here.
Single combat days are pretty common in urban settings and in trackless wildernesses. Both of which have their own internal logic.
In town: If the PCs get into a major donnybrook, word will spread like wildfire after the
fact. While it's possible that some "Evil Guy" would take advantage of a weakened party, that's a reactive strategy. Big Bad Guys are generally proactive.
Casters get the shaft in town. While the PCs can get away with a little justified homicide every now and then, they may not get away with Fireballs and Summoned Monsters inside of the city limits. There are laws against that sort of thing virtually everywhere.
In town, it's the social encounters that can really screw a party up anyway.
In the Boondocks: Seriously, If their is a mated pair of Wyverns living in a specific area, how many large creatures or organized groups will coexist in the same general area? Chances are pretty good that the apex predators have seriously made this a tough neighborhood to randomly attack armed groups.
Now the "dungeon", that's a different deal. Most are contrived death traps, but that is sort of the game. Stopping to take a nap in a dungeon is dumb.
I don't hate random encounters, but I think they leave a great deal to be desired. One of the things that's always bugged me about D&D is the sheer ubiquity of lethal apex predators that are seemingly concentrated in a small area with nothing better to do than attack a group of dangerous looking people. That's fantasy.