Hello all here in Paizo!
A long, long time ago in a galaxy not so very far away, I created my very first character, which was a Monk/Druid hybrid. Honestly, I thought that it was a good synthesis, since both rely on WIS as a positive stat and Dex + STR are nice icings to the cake. However, I made this person during the times when I had Core and Core alone. When APG came out as well, I was easily able to make the character a bit more diverse, and planning her skills as to what her character would use. But with UM and UC out and about, I feel like I don't know exactly what to do now, and what would seem to help her the most in both story and in optimization.
So this is the part where I ask you guys for help. I'll post her stats at Level 1, her lvl build and ratio, and what I want her role in battle to be. You guys critique and help fill in the blanks, especially with feats. It seems that my feats when I first wrote her up seem a bit...lackluster.
Level 1 Human Monk (20 point buy)
STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 15
CHA: 7
Monk of the Four Winds Archetype
Nature Bond (Druid): Plant Domain - Growth Subdomain
Level Build:
1: Monk
2: Druid
3: Monk
4: Druid
5: Monk
6: Monk
7: Druid
Build continues onward with a 2:1 ratio. Ending at lvl 20 with 12 Monk/ 8 Druid
Her battle style is one that is quick and ferocious, yet smart to not go into battle right from the get-go. She stays behind for the first two or three rounds, casting buffs on herself, increasing her AC, her STR or other things before rushing in and punching the foes out madly. She does wield weapons when her fists don't do the job, mostly a Temple Sword and some Shuriken, but heavily relies on her fists and Flurry of Blows to take opponents down. When needed, she'll jump out of fray to either heal herself, or heal others when if a bulkier fighter is needing it more, or if they are easily able to hold them off for a minute while the monk goes to aid her allies.
I'm eager to hear your advice and critique.
Edit: Oh yes, I almost forgot a few more things. Firstly, I'd like some recommendations to Spells that she could use, alongside any feats, items, and the like that will make her shine without being completely broken.
Also, I'm limiting all recommendations of spells, feats, items, etc. to only the 4 main books; Core, APG, UM, and UC. I'd like to just work with what material I have in person. Thanks again!
I've played a character like this. Are you familiar with the beastlord class from the Everquest MMO?
I've played a character like this. Are you familiar with the beastlord class from the Everquest MMO?
Nope. Unfortunately, I don't know anything when it comes to MMO's aside from the fact that WOW has the chance of stealing your soul... which it really didn't do with me. Did a trial version run of it and it did not appease me.
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I would probably look at one of the Shaman Druid types to pick a different domain. The other benefit would be that you can get totem transformation.
Serpent for the Trickery domain and climb or swim speed.
Wolf for the Travel domain.
I'd do monk, Druid, Druid, or druid, monk,druid for the first 3 levels to get transformation early.
I think there could be some pretty tough combat builds in there if you're diligent about it.
Qinggong monk for having barkskin instead of using the druid spell. Also you might like the Tactics inquisition that lets you add your wisdom bonus to your initiative and to that of your allies.
I would probably look at one of the Shaman Druid types to pick a different domain. The other benefit would be that you can get totem transformation.
Serpent for the Trickery domain and climb or swim speed.
Wolf for the Travel domain.I'd do monk, Druid, Druid, or druid, monk,druid for the first 3 levels to get transformation early.
I think there could be some pretty tough combat builds in there if you're diligent about it.
I took a look at the Shaman Druid types, and honestly, they seem like a double-edged sword to me. Granted, you are allowed some rather nice bonuses, plus with the Wolf Domain, one of the better Cleric Domains, it prevents all the neat things you could do with your Wild Shape ability, alongside with having some rather lackluster bonus feats.
Plant Domain gives me a decent enough boost, too, especially with the Growth Subdomain. Give myself the Enlarge Person spell as a swift action AND I can do it 5 times a day (3 + WIS modifier) gives me plenty of wallop at a small level. When I get the Barkskin spell, it'll reduce that AC penalty to almost nothing. Plus, it doesn't do anything funny with my Wild Shape ability, which although I DON'T know if FoB and WS can work together simultaneously, I do know that the normal WS ability has gotten me out of jams before.
Qinggong monk for having barkskin instead of using the druid spell. Also you might like the Tactics inquisition that lets you add your wisdom bonus to your initiative and to that of your allies.
I'd pick Qinggong if it gave me more. The spells and abilities listed are, for the most part, stuff that I think could be used for better objects or reasons to use your Ki.
If I did the Inquisition, I'd have to take a level in Inquisitor, which I refuse to do. Firstly, I don't like too much dipping. Multiclassing is fine, and when I do multiclass I like to do it on an even ratio, with the only exception of a Barbarian taking a Fighter dip. Secondly, it doesn't seem to fit her as a character.
Do you have UC available? What about UM?
I suggest Menhir Savant Druid 2 / Master of Many Styles Sohei Monk 1 / Menhir Savant Druid X.
Up to you, though.
Do you have UC available? What about UM?
Yes, I have UC and UM available. All four of the main books I have, but none of those other tiny little things.
That build doesn't seem to fit her either. The Master of Many Styles would seem like a fun one, but I'd need to know what would work well for the styles.
Perhaps I should go into a bit of her character...
Pretty much, the background that I have for her monastery is that they are a group that upholds a duty to not just protect nature, but to monitor it and how the progression of time, environment, and people affect the world. Thus, the monks are mapmakers, with many of the disciples traveling across the world, making charts and maps of their (and other, if they survive) world and how things have changed from year to year. They strive to keep a balance of the laws of nature, and the progression of man in tact with each other. None should out progress the other and those who disrupt the balance will be sought out and brought to terms, either peacefully or painfully.
It makes it hard for me to pick many of the archetypes of the Druid class, because they all want to focus on one shape or form of animal or spirit instead of nature in general. Same thing with Monk, which many either seem really bad formula wise or just don't fit the theme of a "Nature Monk" or a "Wild Monk" as well.
Also, any recommendations of Feats and Spells I can use in the other books aside from the Core Rulebook?
Well the Beastlord was a monk with an animal companion basicly. They concentrated on buff spells for themsleves and their pets, de-buffs for opponents, heals for themselves and their pets and melee fighting along side their companion. That's the concept I went with when I played my monk/druid. It was fun! Is this what you're going for?
Well the Beastlord was a monk with an animal companion basicly. They concentrated on buff spells for themsleves and their pets, de-buffs for opponents, heals for themselves and their pets and melee fighting along side their companion. That's the concept I went with when I played my monk/druid. It was fun! Is this what you're going for?
Sounds like fun, to be sure.
Yes and no, I never thought of her getting an animal companion. The strategy sounds like the same, aside from De-buffs since I think I'll get affected as well since I'd be in the fray. However, I never really thought about the animal companion, and honestly that'd be a whole other can of worms.
Suggest to me what you have in mind for a build WITH an animal alongside me, and give me some tasty numbers to go along with it for bonuses, damage, etc.
mmmm, I love me some numbers.
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If you do go with a companion, the boon companion feat will be a necessity to keep her relevant.
Well, I'll vote again for Menhir savant, which is very nature-y.
Look for feats that work well as a Druid or as an animal. I like Power attack and Vital Strike. Wild Speech is also really good.
And at lower levels, flurry + shillelagh is fantastic
I fail to see how going Druid is helping you with the listed progression. You mentioned Wild Shape, but don’t get it until level 10. At that point it’s practically an afterthought.
So my question is, are you going for more of a warrior that does buffs and fights for nature with his fists, or a character that likes to wild shape and claw stuff. If it is the second, then go Monk 1/Druid X. You don’t need much Monk to make a Wild Shape build great.
If you really want to be a Monk with Buffs, then I would say go Cleric with the Monk instead of Druid. Take the Growth and Travel Domains for some nice Domain abilities. Clerics are good buffers and a little more front loaded then Druids, so the slow progression won’t hurt as badly. And you can heal spontaneously if needed.
I just don’t think such a slow Druid progression is doing you any favors.
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I think your best way to end up with a workable character is to:
1) Do a Travel/Trickery/Strength domain totem druid dip (2-4 levels) and the rest monk. - You are a monk that can use totem transformation to be a better monk plus some good synergy in the early level self-buff druid spells and wands.
2) Do a monk dip (1-4 monk levels) and the rest druid. - You are a druid that has much better defence because of the Wis=AC thing plus stunning fist (and maybe evasion, and maybe some speed and AC from levels).
What you are proposing with a 60/40 build will be behind a straight monk for combat ability because the wild shape comes so late and doesn't mesh well with flurry of blows that. Further, you will be so far behind in spell casting that you might as well be a ranger as far as your spell list goes.
I think I'd do:
Human
STR=>WIS>CON>DEX>INT>CHA
1) Monk (Improved Grapple bonus), Power attack, Cleave
2) Wolf Totem Druid (Travel domain)
3) Wolf Totem Druid (Weapon focus on bite because it is a bite/trip)
and then either:
All the rest monk (Weapon focus/Feral Combat Training:Bite for the bite+trip combo that is part of a flurry). Use wands for spells like greater magic fang and barkskin.
or:
All the rest druid (Add natural spell and enjoy a +4/6/7/8/+++ AC compared to other melee druid builds plus stunning fist, improved grapple and all that)
I think your best way to end up with a workable character is to:
Do a Travel/Trickery/Strength domain totem druid dip (2-4 levels) and the rest monk. - You are a monk that can use totem transformation to be a better monk plus some good synergy in the early level self-buff druid spells and wands.
Also, if I could choose the Wolf Shaman, the Liberation Domain could also be available to me. Travel and Liberation are some of the greatest Domains the Clerics can get. Plus, if I do a 16/4 ratio, I'd gain not only the Adamantine bonus to my hits, but a much longer list of delicious feats, abilities, and higher BAB with more of a Monk set. Plus, it doesn't seem so much like dipping to me, since it's more than just one measly level or two and will keep her character. Not only that, it'll also be enough for her to gain at least a few spells, and can easily buy a few wand for the buffs that she'll need more of (I always forget about being able to either have someone make wands, or just buy some in a town.)
Ding Ding, We have a winner!
What you are proposing with a 60/40 build will be behind a straight monk for combat ability because the wild shape comes so late and doesn't mesh well with flurry of blows that. Further, you will be so far behind in spell casting that you might as well be a ranger as far as your spell list goes.
Yes, to be fair, I wasn't really going to use WS in combat either, it was going to be more or less for situation's sake. The Level 8 was there to gain the ability to practically perform beast shape III on myself and get the chance to gain some of the neater mystical creatures. Which has a soft spot in my heart because I won a campaign and my very first Pathfinder game using a Druid's WS ability with this...*sigh* the good times.
Yes, WS was just going to be a utility move, and I'm still granted with it with this decrease, although it's not as MANY as I would like, it's still there, and I believe there'll be times where even just once could help save the day.
Same thing with spells; I knew I'd be piss poor when it came to them, but more of them were there just for the ability to use more of them without having to stop and rest for the day.
1) Monk (Improved Grapple bonus), Power attack, Cleave
2) Wolf Totem Druid (Travel domain)
3) Wolf Totem Druid (Weapon focus on bite because it is a bite/trip)
Unfortunately, Monk's don't get a +1 BAB at level 1, so those two feats are out of the picture for now. Perhaps we could use something else, such as Toughness, Improved Init. or Great Fort. or some other decent feat in the other books as the two bonus feats first, then proceed with Power Atk and Cleave, and then so on.
Speaking of which, what other feats should I also continue to work on? Would Vital Strike also be affected by Flurry? Would Elemental Fist also be a decent choice for just a random feat in the future? Honestly, I like that one for the ability to change elements on the fly but I know it might suck if I don't do the Monk of the Four Winds Archetype.
and then either:
All the rest monk (Weapon focus/Feral Combat Training:Bite for the bite+trip combo that is part of a flurry). Use wands for spells like greater magic fang and barkskin.
Now, explain to me how you could use the bite/trip as part of the Flurry of blows and when you would use it? The CMB mechanics are powerful, but they all confuse me.
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Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
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Now, explain to me how you could use the bite/trip as part of the Flurry of blows and when you would use it? The CMB mechanics are powerful, but they all confuse me.
I take it to mean that you can intersperse your bite as part of a flurry of blows (using the flurry attack progression, adding BAB from druid). I think otherwise, the bite can't be used in the flurry.
The awesome part is that is every bite you do as part of the flurry automatically invokes a free trip attempt.
It might be tough though because your CMB is going to be relatively low with your bite but a free trip is a free trip.
I'd pick Qinggong if it gave me more. The spells and abilities listed are, for the most part, stuff that I think could be used for better objects or reasons to use your Ki.
If I did the Inquisition, I'd have to take a level in Inquisitor, which I refuse to do. Firstly, I don't like too much dipping. Multiclassing is fine, and when I do multiclass I like to do it on an even ratio, with the only exception of a Barbarian taking a Fighter dip. Secondly, it doesn't seem to fit her as a character.
You can take inquisitions as a Druid just have a look here!
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One word: Shillelagh! Monks can flurry with quarterstaves, so why not enhance each end into a +1 greatsword?
Yes, eventually your Monk levels will increase your unarmed damage dice to the point where you don't need to do this, but if you want to do amazing damage right out of the gate, this is a pretty easy way to do it.