Except I don't want to go killing innocent people, only deities that deserve destruction and their faiths (and organizations etc. that share that kind of view). The people therein don't need to die, only change their view. Or hell, even not change their view, simply not be allowed to spread it and be given no authority.
Frankly, the best outcome would be to stage a deific assassination and pass Erastil's power and domains on to someone who's not a sexist jackass, and then the new god/dess could simply smack their followers with the divine hand of "don't be an ass".
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Except I don't want to go killing innocent people, only deities that deserve destruction and their faiths (and organizations etc. that share that kind of view). The people therein don't need to die, only change their view. Or hell, even not change their view, simply not be allowed to spread it and be given no authority.
Frankly, the best outcome would be to stage a deific assassination and pass Erastil's power and domains on to someone who's not a sexist jackass, and then the new god/dess could simply smack their followers with the divine hand of "don't be an ass".
I think it has to be asked: What exactly has Erastil done to you, or anyone else, that warrants you murdering him? By daring to have a differing opinion on gender politics?
How about this idea: Convince Erastil that on certain points, he is incorrect. You know, like people do in real life?
OR, and this is just an idea: live and let live. There are few enough good deities in the Pathfinder Universe. There is little to be gained and far too much to be lost with another bulwark of goodness and virtue annihilated. And by the way, remember what happened when Aroden died? The Worldwound opened up and the Eye of Abendego appeared. And it did not really help matters that Iomedae took over Aroden's domain. And you are willing to risk this for what? Just to eliminate a being whose only crime is happening to hold slightly different views than yours? Do let us be serious.
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What exactly has Erastil done to you, or anyone else, that warrants you murdering him? By daring to have a differing opinion on gender politics?How about this idea: Convince Erastil that on certain points, he is incorrect. You know, like people do in real life?
OR, and this is just an idea: live and let live. There are few enough good deities in the Pathfinder Universe. There is little to be gained and far too much to be lost with another bulwark of goodness and virtue annihilated. And by the way, remember what happened when Aroden died? The Worldwound opened up and the Eye of Abendego appeared. And it did not really help matters that Iomedae took over Aroden's domain. And you are willing to risk this for what? Just to eliminate a being whose only crime is happening to hold slightly different views than yours? Do let us be serious.
Uh...for starters, actively pushed down my gender and apparently convinced a lot of people that that's somehow the "right" way? That's enough in and of itself. And if Erastil isn't convinced already, when Iomedae and Sarenrae and the like are massive proof that he's wrong, there's not going to be any convincing.
Also, live and let live? Are you serious? Yeah, let's just let the guy who, again, is actively pushing down who knows how many women and trying to force them to be subservient to men live and keep spreading his poison. Sorry, but no - he deserves to be put down.
Yes, I'm absolutely willing to risk it. He doesn't hold a "slightly" different view, he holds a patently damaging, cancerous viewpoint - it needs to be snuffed out, utterly and swiftly.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Has anyone even read my post where I quoted the very writer of the Erastil entry in Kingmaker?
Here is the highlight:
Erastil isn't saying women are weak.
Erastil isn't saying women are inferior.He is saying that a woman's role is to be wife and mother... just as a man's role is to be husband and father. Yet he's not insisting that everyone get married at the start of puberty and start cranking out children just because they can.
If his attitudes about women are sexist, then so are his attitudes about men. Erastil would consider me (an unmarried, almost-40, childfree man with no land) very "unmanly." If I lived in a world where Erastil was real, would that prevent me from praying to him for prosperity in my farming or hunting? No. Compared to the gods, we are all inferior and inadequate.
Also, as a Lawful Good god, he would not put up with anyone abusing, harming, coercing, or neglecting anyone. I would dare say that he would be even more wrathful on someone who harmed a woman. A husband's duty over his wife is to provide and protect her and any children they have.
Sure, he thinks a "strong-willed" woman needs to be "tamed" but he isn't endorsing abuse, harm, or coercion. I like to think he is hoping for something like in "Princess Bride," where a strong-willed woman is tamed by the quiet "As you wish," love that Wesly gave to Buttercup. The strong patience and careful diplomacy that slowly softens a heart and makes it malleable to the loving will of a partner. And just like Sean mentioned, there isn't anything preventing the two from working together in a harmonious partnership to become a "power couple."
Now, would that be understood and properly taught and practiced by all followers of Erastil? Nope. In fact, the majority of them would go about it all wrong. Just like how the majority of any religion fail to properly follow the doctrine of their faith. In that, I can see husbands abusing power and women becoming second-class citizens in small, remote communities.
Edit: Not to mention that this all just a game and we are all able to change it to our liking. You don't like his views on women? Change them, house rule it, and move on to the next issue.
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Has anyone even read my post where I quoted the very writer of the Erastil entry in Kingmaker?
Here is the highlight:
Erastil isn't saying women are weak.
Erastil isn't saying women are inferior.He is saying that a woman's role is to be wife and mother... just as a man's role is to be husband and father. Yet he's not insisting that everyone get married at the start of puberty and start cranking out children just because they can.
If his attitudes about women are sexist, then so are his attitudes about men. Erastil would consider me (an unmarried, almost-40, childfree man with no land) very "unmanly." If I lived in a world where Erastil was real, would that prevent me from praying to him for prosperity in my farming or hunting? No. Compared to the gods, we are all inferior and inadequate.
Also, as a Lawful Good god, he would not put up with anyone abusing, harming, coercing, or neglecting anyone. I would dare say that he would be even more wrathful on someone who harmed a woman. A husband's duty over his wife is to provide and protect her and any children they have.
Sure, he thinks a "strong-willed" woman needs to be "tamed" but he isn't endorsing abuse, harm, or coercion. I like to think he is hoping for something like in "Princess Bride," where a strong-willed woman is tamed by the quiet "As you wish," love that Wesly gave to Buttercup. The strong patience and careful diplomacy that slowly softens a heart and makes it malleable to the loving will of a partner. And just like Sean mentioned, there isn't anything preventing the two from working together in a harmonious partnership to become a "power couple."
Now, would that be understood and properly taught and practiced by all followers of Erastil? Nope. In fact, the majority of them would go about it all wrong. Just like how the majority of any religion fail to properly follow the doctrine of their faith. In that, I can see husbands abusing power and women becoming second-class citizens in small, remote communities.
Edit: Not to mention that this all just a game and we are all able to change it to our liking. You don't like his views on women? Change them, house rule it, and move on to the next issue.
Oh, I read it, but here's the thing - the actual writeup for Erastil doesn't just say that women should be wife and mother and men should be husband and father, it says men should be in charge. And his attitudes about men are sexist, too, but he favors them over women, clearly. You just, in fact, said all that needs to be said - "a husband's duty over his wife". Bam, that right there, sexist and worthy of condemnation.
I'm not saying he supports abuse, but he does support coercion. "Taming" is, by its very nature, coercive - you're trying to coax someone into being someone they're not so that they fit who you want them to be more. And sure, a couple could work together, and I'm sure many of them do...but Erastil, by what has been written about him, still wants the husband to be in charge. That is, frankly, unacceptable to me. When I say that, know that I don't mean it in an "Erastil shouldn't exist/OMG Sean's sexist!" sense, I mean that by my values, my beliefs, Erastil is worthy of nothing but scorn and destruction, and I take a special kind of glee in partaking in that destruction in-world.
Ask yourself this...if Erastil's writeup said, instead:
Old Deadeye is set in his ways and doesn’t take well to those who challenge his opinions or upset how things work. He believes the strength of a caucasian’s (or whatever the Golarion equivalent of that is) will makes him the center of a household, and while Garundi can be strong, they should defer to and support the caucasians, as their role is to look after the house and raise strong children (consequently, there are few Garundi priests in his church). Independent-minded Garundi, he believes, can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry them off quickly so their duties as servant command their attention.
would you defend them? I highly doubt it.
And yes, I don't like his views on women. In fact, to say I despise his views on women would be to grossly underrepresent them. To say I despise him for his views on women would likewise be a gross underrepresentation. But I don't begrudge having him in the setting - he serves a purpose, namely to show that just because something has a good alignment doesn't mean it deserves to exist or you should work with it, for it may well be more worthy of annihilation than the monsters you're used to facing.
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Uh...for starters, actively pushed down my gender and apparently convinced a lot of people that that's somehow the "right" way? That's enough in and of itself. And if Erastil isn't convinced already, when Iomedae and Sarenrae and the like are massive proof that he's wrong, there's not going to be any convincing.
Wrong about what exactly? It is stated in canon that Erastil is on good terms with all the gods of goodness, and they, in turn, are on good terms with him. Last time I checked, the majority of these gods are goddesses. And each of them have managed to see past some of his failings, and see that he is a force of goodness and benevolence in the world, not because of his rather backwards views, but in spite of them. So I really think you are over-stating the negativity of Erastil's actual views.
Also, live and let live? Are you serious? Yeah, let's just let the guy who, again, is actively pushing down who knows how many women and trying to force them to be subservient to men live and keep spreading his poison. Sorry, but no - he deserves to be put down.
Yes, I am quite serious. I rarely play characters who go around killing people just because they have different ideologies than me. I prefer to punish actions, not thoughts.
And as you asked, who knows how many women he has kept subservient to men? Do you know? Because I certainly do not know of any. Perhaps you can come up with some actual in-canon examples. Last I checked, there is a difference between encouraging a way of life, and forcing a way of life onto others. And since Erastil is a Lawful Good god, one of the quickest ways to lose his favor would be to force a way of life onto another person against their will.
Yes, I'm absolutely willing to risk it. He doesn't hold a "slightly" different view, he holds a patently damaging, cancerous viewpoint - it needs to be snuffed out, utterly and swiftly.
Fair enough, as long as you are consistent in your hatred of sexism, and say that you are also for killing Sarenrae for her support of the sexist matriarchal culture of the Keleshite Empire. ;)
But let us get to the point. If you seriously wish to pursue such a course of action in-game, knowing full well the possibility of what could result, then your character would have gone beyond the Pale into the category of the well-intentioned fanatic who cares more about ideology than she does about people.
At that point, it would be plainly obvious that you do not care about your fellow women, at least not in any real form of in-universe solidarity. Because by doing this, you will be sentencing countless tens of thousands of families to death by pestilence and famine in the unholy blight that will inevitably follow the death of the Lawful Good God of Farming and Hunting. But hey, you cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, can you? At least you will have gotten rid of a slightly sexist God.
Unfortunately, the only sister goddesses who will laud your actions and give you a loud "You go, sister!" would be Lamashtu and Urguaotha. And you will inevitably have every remaining gods and goddess of good gunning for you in order to bring you to justice, including Iomedae and Sarenrae, who will be enraged at having seen their friend and ally murdered and seeing the chaos wreaked upon the mortal world as a result of it.
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Just throwing this out there, but Erastil, while known as being old and set in his ways, is actually the god that has changed the most in their recorded history, after Zon-Kuthon of course.
IIRC it was in Gods and Magic where Fandarra, a neutral ancient giant goddess, is described as being an old contemporary of Erastil's. It's pointed out that unlike Erastil, Fandarra never changed with the times, and is still the sort that calls for blood sacrifice.
Erastil used to be a much bloodier god than what he is currently. Who is to say that he won't continue to evolve? Or that it isn't happening right now?
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Just throwing this out there, but Erastil, while known as being old and set in his ways, is actually the god that has changed the most in their recorded history, after Zon-Kuthon of course.
IIRC it was in Gods and Magic where Fandarra, a neutral ancient giant goddess, is described as being an old contemporary of Erastil's. It's pointed out that unlike Erastil, Fandarra never changed with the times, and is still the sort that calls for blood sacrifice.
Erastil used to be a much bloodier god than what he is currently. Who is to say that he won't continue to evolve? Or that it isn't happening right now?
*Laughs*
Actually, yeah. Erastil does strike me as the kind of God who would say that if a gay couple were shacking up together that they ought to get married to each other immediately and start a family. All the other gods would probably give him a surprised, quizzical look and he would then say "What are you looking at me like that for? At least I'm consistent."
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The only thing that bugs me about Erastil is that he's a big ol' hypocrite. 'Settle down and get married, son! Have lots of kids!' he says, and here he is, going on his tenth millenia of being stag and childless.
If anyone should be a traditionalist LG god of marriage and family and community, it should be Torag. He's got a wife, siblings and an entire sub-pantheon worth of kids.
Erastil, as god of family, makes less sense, aesthetically, than Paladins of Asmodeus.
I do like the 'Horned Hunter' concept, and taking him away from LG a bit and making him more of a nature / fertility / hunt god, and just doing away with Gozreh entirely. I suspect that Curchanos was the god for that sort of thing, 'though, and he's all dead and stuff.
Set never disappoints with this stuff.
The only thing that bugs me about Erastil is that he's a big ol' hypocrite. 'Settle down and get married, son! Have lots of kids!' he says, and here he is, going on his tenth millenia of being stag and childless.
If anyone should be a traditionalist LG god of marriage and family and community, it should be Torag. He's got a wife, siblings and an entire sub-pantheon worth of kids.
Erastil, as god of family, makes less sense, aesthetically, than Paladins of Asmodeus.
I do like the 'Horned Hunter' concept, and taking him away from LG a bit and making him more of a nature / fertility / hunt god, and just doing away with Gozreh entirely. I suspect that Curchanos was the god for that sort of thing, 'though, and he's all dead and stuff.
*begins researching an epic spell to pull Curchanos' essence out of the aether and replace Erastil's with it?*
Lamashtu ate Curchanus' essence, so no dice on that I'm afraid.
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*begins researching an epic spell to pull Curchanos' essence out of the aether and replace Erastil's with it?*The only thing that bugs me about Erastil is that he's a big ol' hypocrite. 'Settle down and get married, son! Have lots of kids!' he says, and here he is, going on his tenth millenia of being stag and childless.
If anyone should be a traditionalist LG god of marriage and family and community, it should be Torag. He's got a wife, siblings and an entire sub-pantheon worth of kids.
Erastil, as god of family, makes less sense, aesthetically, than Paladins of Asmodeus.
I do like the 'Horned Hunter' concept, and taking him away from LG a bit and making him more of a nature / fertility / hunt god, and just doing away with Gozreh entirely. I suspect that Curchanos was the god for that sort of thing, 'though, and he's all dead and stuff.
Plus we don't know if Curchanus' view on women was any more enlightened than Erastil's.
Ultimately though it's a game, and Roleplaying gives people an outlet to explore ideas that might not mesh with the current world. Also, and this is a big thing: Erastil is only as sexist as you make him, that write up is only as canon as the GM who runs the game.
At my table for example there are some who don't like Erastil's chauvanistic attitudes, because they're old fashioned and stuffy. At the same time though they are trying to change the church from within because it does a lot of good (I'm running Kingmaker).
Later on I intend to have the church clash a little with the state when it starts conscripting armies, because the Erastilian church doesn't want women on the front lines. Not because women aren't capable warriors (Sarynn the barbarian would put-to to that), but because if you send both men and women to the front line who is going to stay home and raise the children, and keep the country running?
It's an interesting philosophical question and makes the game more interesting.
I think you're better off trying to change the church of Erastil than to let it burn down, because Erastil's influence is a net positive. He watches for small communities in a way other gods don't.
Iomedae: Is a goddess of war - her concern is seeing evil vanquished not humble things like seeing a child grow up.
Sarenrae: Too concerned with stopping the great evils of the world either through redemption or flame.
Torag: Are you a Dwarf? Y/N. If N: Stop.
Desna: She watches out for travellers not farmers.
Shelyn: Cares about beauty, and poetry and songs, and is not the goddess to pray to when you're elbow deep in a cow trying to calve.
Abadar: Is concerned about coin, not family.
Calistria: Revenge and Lust don't make a happy family.
Cayden Caillean: Drunks and heroes don't make very good dads.
Pharasma: She cares about you when you go in, and when you go out, during that long bit in the middle you're on your own.
Gozreh: Does not care about farms and families, he cares about preserving nature, the open sky and air.
Nethys: Only cares about magic.
Asmodeus: THE DEVIL.
Erastil has a father's concern, and a father's love for his followers and indeed all of the world. He thinks he knows best, and like many fathers is right about some things wrong about others. He's stubborn, but can be swayed. I'll be honest, man or woman if I was your average peasant farmer I'd be praying to Erastil to see to the crops grow, or that my brother came back safe from the hunt, or to watch over my house to make sure it's not attacked by goblins while I'm away.
Divorce your personal politics from a game world for a second and you'd see that painting Erastil's attitude as monstrous and vile is a little to extreme the other way.
Is it only me, or has somebody else noticed the avatar name DrowVampyre?
Sorry, but you're preaching "down with the old sexist and his backwards, misogynic views" and chose the name of the most sexist stereotypical society in D&D-related RPG for your avatar? Go figure.
Carefully reading SKR's post reveals that Erastil's "sexism" goes both ways and actually includes everybody of you (as players) since he has also a strong dislike about adventurers upsetting order.
In addition: books #3 #4 there are two female priests of Erastil portrayed.
Oh and to add to the hypocrisy around here the general assumption going around, killing other humanoids due to race, faith and what not is perfectly fine, because... well, because.
Brilliant.
I agree with da Dude - sit down, relax and play the game.
Ruyan.
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Anyone else finding it ironic that some people are going on a rant about how oppresive this god is when his church actually seems to be more open than a lot of religions today (Example despite his views you can have female clergy, you wont automaticly be excomunicated for not following his beliefs to the letter etc.)
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I was going to post here, but the violence and intolerance displayed by DV has put me off.
There is no profit in having any form of discourse with a person who preaches equality by denying people their rights to freedom of thought, freedom of association and freedom of belief.
Is it only me, or has somebody else noticed the avatar name DrowVampyre?
Sorry, but you're preaching "down with the old sexist and his backwards, misogynic views" and chose the name of the most sexist stereotypical society in D&D-related RPG for your avatar? Go figure.Carefully reading SKR's post reveals that Erastil's "sexism" goes both ways and actually includes everybody of you (as players) since he has also a strong dislike about adventurers upsetting order.
In addition: books #3 #4 there are two female priests of Erastil portrayed.
Oh and to add to the hypocrisy around here the general assumption going around, killing other humanoids due to race, faith and what not is perfectly fine, because... well, because.
Brilliant.
I agree with da Dude - sit down, relax and play the game.
Ruyan.
Yes, I realize the disconnect with my username - I don't use it because I specifically like drow, believe it or not, I use it because I adore elves, and the thought of living in magical underground cities makes me squee. <_< Though I must admit, the best I've ever heard drow society described is "it's not a matriarchy, it's a psycho-b**chiarchy" (sadly I can't remember who from). Believe it or not, I feel bad for the drow men too.
Also, I never said there were no female priests of Erastil. There are of Asmodeus too - doesn't make him non-sexist, y'know. <_<
Plus we don't know if Curchanus' view on women was any more enlightened than Erastil's.
That's true - it'd be interesting to know more about him.
And as for "as chauvinist as you make him", that's true to a degree - more like "you can make him less chauvinistic". And I'm not arguing that, if people want to do that. Nor , to reiterate, am I arguing that he shouldn't exist in the pantheon (from an IRL sense, I mean, as in "Paizo shouldn't have him in there"), as again, I rather like having a "good" church/deity to oppose and attack.
Divorce your personal politics from a game world for a second and you'd see that painting Erastil's attitude as monstrous and vile is a little to extreme the other way.
On this point, though, I have to disagree - whether we're talking about the real world or the game world, sexism is a disease, and a vile one. Nothing in the game world changes that, just as nothing in our own world's history made it right, just, good, or anything of the sort in ages past.
Anyone else finding it ironic that some people are going on a rant about how oppresive this god is when his church actually seems to be more open than a lot of religions today (Example despite his views you can have female clergy, you wont automaticly be excomunicated for not following his beliefs to the letter etc.)
I'm not gonna go into much here, so as not to insult anyone's faith or anything, only say this: I agree that his church is more open, so you can imagine how I feel about the aforementioned real-world religions.
I was going to post here, but the violence and intolerance displayed by DV has put me off.
There is no profit in having any form of discourse with a person who preaches equality by denying people their rights to freedom of thought, freedom of association and freedom of belief.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I won't apologize for hating sexism, chauvinism, misogyny, or whatever name you want to call it by. I don't deny anyone the right to believe what they will, nor would I if I had unlimited power, only to harm, oppress, or endanger someone for who they were born. Likewise with association - I believe in allowing people to associate however they please, but when they start damaging others with that association, then they no longer deserve that right. And freedom of thought is essentially the same as freedom of belief - think what you will, but try to push someone down just because they're a woman (or a minority race, or homosexual, or whatever) and we have a problem.
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Ok, do you play characters who go around waving at slavers, saying good morning and charing a coffee with them? Or do they oppose them? Do they not deserve to die? What about if they're generally nice people, but that's a failing - do they deserve to live in spite of that? I'm not trying to bait you here - really, is that how your characters are, or do they hold a double standard if the oppressed people happen to have boobs?
Oh, I'll bite. And the answer would be: it depends. Are these people who simply support the idea of slavery? Or are these people who keep slaves, make money off the slave trade and/or actually go out and take slaves?
Because if it is the former, no. I will not go around killing people just for having abhorrent beliefs. However, the moment those beliefs translate into abhorrent actions, as in the latter case, I will not hesitate bringing them to justice if possible or putting them down. As I said before, I care about stopping and punishing wicked acts, not wicked thoughts. I am not a member of the Thought Police, nor do I want to role-play as one.
Likewise, a person could believe in a religion the Holy Book of which commands its followers to "Stone your unruly children to death" or "The penalty for apostasy shall be death," and I would leave them alone. However, the moment they actually tried to kill their unruly children, or murder someone who had the temerity to leave the religion, the gloves are off and I would do everything in my power to stop them.
The only thing that bugs me about Erastil is that he's a big ol' hypocrite. 'Settle down and get married, son! Have lots of kids!' he says, and here he is, going on his tenth millenia of being stag and childless.
Perhaps he has not found the right woman. Or perhaps he realizes the fact that he would not make a good husband.
Divorce your personal politics from a game world for a second and you'd see that painting Erastil's attitude as monstrous and vile is a little to extreme the other way.
On this point, though, I have to disagree - whether we're talking about the real world or the game world, sexism is a disease, and a vile one. Nothing in the game world changes that, just as nothing in our own world's history made it right, just, good, or anything of the sort in ages past.
I actually see DrowVampyre's point here, in regards to sexism, and even more, on rape. An excellent quote reinforces my view.
"In general, you don't know if you're treading on territory that might do more damage for the sake of your "mature" NC-17 roleplaying game to justify you feeling like a big adult. What you lose out of an RPG by eliminating rape is tiny compared to the offense you might inflict. But what the **** do I know. You have to have rape fantasies and **** to feel grown up about your hobbies nowadays."
Sexism is also a big bad, but not to the same level as this. One reason for that is the amount of people who seem to have no problem playing that out, and calling groups that don't "immature" or just plain inferior to them. Sexism is a form of discrimination, and so is calling "badwrong" on how other people play, especially when they're less prone to awakening past traumas among players. But yeah, so as not to stray too much from all this, Erastil still seems worse to me than Fandarra in some ways.
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Grown up people don't talk about sexual violence using f-words.
Sanitizing RPGs from things that happen around us (such as: homosexuality, intolerance, sexism, sexual violence, racism) for sake of having a PG-13 game that won't offend anybody is what corporate cowardice is all about. One of things that made Vampire: The Masquerade such a critically acclaimed hit is that it was the first game that didn't shy away from The Bad Stuff.
I don't feel uneasy with adult stuff in RPGs. I've grown up enough to be able to tell things apart from things, and I don't need somebody to cover my eyes every time a "potentially questionable" content comes up.
1. So he used a swear word, thus his point is invalid? Amazing.
2. So you're gonna risk having some rape victim have a relapse or flashbacks just because you feel the game ain't interesting enough for you? Clever move, right there. And oh so brave too. Lastly, isn't intolerance also related to bullying, a topic that even kids know about? Yeah, logic there as well.
3. There's a difference between "covering your eyes" and "not wanting to potentially get someone back to a mental ward over a past trauma", you know. I've never been a victim of such traumatizing experiences, but I at least try to understand my fellow human beings, while all you seem to care for is having your own fun. For a guy preaching how games should have violence, sex and gore, you sure seem to enjoy living in a peaceful dream land of love and peace in real life.
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1. So he used a swear word, thus his point is invalid? Amazing.
2. So you're gonna risk having some rape victim have a relapse or flashbacks just because you feel the game ain't interesting enough for you? Clever move, right there. And oh so brave too. Lastly, isn't intolerance also related to bullying, a topic that even kids know about? Yeah, logic there as well.
3. There's a difference between "covering your eyes" and "not wanting to potentially get someone back to a mental ward over a past trauma", you know. I've never been a victim of such traumatizing experiences, but I at least try to understand my fellow human beings, while all you seem to care for is having your own fun. For a guy preaching how games should have violence, sex and gore, you sure seem to enjoy living in a peaceful dream land of love and peace in real life.
I do not know what has gone on between you two before, but I do not think it would be a good idea for you two to continue.
The great thing about Pathfinder, and most role-playing games in general, is that unlike other games, you get to craft your own experience. If you do not want to play a game that involves themes of rape or child murder, or something equally traumatic, you do not have to. If you are willing to sit through such horror because you think it makes the gameplay more visceral, you can do that as well.
It's a lot like going into a video rental store; you have your comedy section, your horror section, your adventure section, and drama section, etc. Pick out what you want, and leave behind the stuff that does not agree with you. You are not being forced to solely watch the NC-17 horror movie. And you can set ground rules from the beginning like: I can't stand it when there are rape themes in the game I play. Could we not do that? Or, if you are the GM, you can set those rules from the beginning as well.
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Grown up people don't talk about sexual violence using f-words.
Sanitizing RPGs from things that happen around us (such as: homosexuality, intolerance, sexism, sexual violence, racism) for sake of having a PG-13 game that won't offend anybody is what corporate cowardice is all about. One of things that made Vampire: The Masquerade such a critically acclaimed hit is that it was the first game that didn't shy away from The Bad Stuff.
I don't feel uneasy with adult stuff in RPGs. I've grown up enough to be able to tell things apart from things, and I don't need somebody to cover my eyes every time a "potentially questionable" content comes up.
PAIZO is in the business of making money. Probably the MOST FUN WAY POSSIBLE of making money, but still....money. Pathfinder, at its core, is a "D&D derived game", and D&D players start early (I started at 11). There's nothing logical about saturating their financial model with CR20 Rape-Golems and Neo-Nazi-Neogi. White Wolf was aimed at an older, more "mature" audience, and while it was a hit with critics and a lot of fans (myself included) it wasnt a finanical lodestone.
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My take on Erastil is pretty simple: He's not married.
Therefore, his views are completely loopy.
If he was married, had a family, and acted like he told his people to, yeah, he'd be valid...practicing what he preached.
He isn't, he doesn't. He's not a provider, he's just a hunter mouthing words.
If he truly was a LG god of community, he'd reflect his words. Therefore, I believe the view of him as portrayed is completely erroneous...either he has a divine family that hasn't been detailed (unlikely), or someone has a totally screwball interpretation of what a LG bachelor hunting god who wanders the world shooting thing is about.
The write-up on Erastil is a classic 'do as I say, not as I'm doing' justification which would be great if he was NG or CG, but being he's LG, it's totally contradictory and you should just ignore it.
Sorry, Sean.
==Aelryinth
My take on Erastil is pretty simple: He's not married.
Therefore, his views are completely loopy.
If he was married, had a family, and acted like he told his people to, yeah, he'd be valid...practicing what he preached.
He isn't, he doesn't. He's not a provider, he's just a hunter mouthing words.
If he truly was a LG god of community, he'd reflect his words. Therefore, I believe the view of him as portrayed is completely erroneous...either he has a divine family that hasn't been detailed (unlikely), or someone has a totally screwball interpretation of what a LG bachelor hunting god is about.
==Aelryinth
Taking that into account, maybe he's also the god of senility?
Or perhaps he's just Zepar, Asmodeus or some other Lawful Evil deity in disguise?
(Wait, didn't Asmodeus have the Trickery domain?)
Yeah, maybe he's the god of Alzheimer's.
I mean, seriously, he's the god of family. He has NO divine family. He's not even the 'elder grandpa' of the Pantheon.
Come on. Erastil makes NO sense.
==Aelryinth
I'm still suspecting him to be Asmodeus in disguise. That devil even has a caste of minions tempting mortals to "evil atheism"*, so it wouldn't be surprising if he used a Lawful Good faith as a way of tricking people to Hell. I mean, his Paladins used to be PFS legal at one part**!
* = I forgot the name. They appeared in Book of the Damned vol.1 though.
** = Never liked the idea of Paladins being dumb enough to follow him, though.
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You're free to disagree with me, since it's an opinion. But if you ask me (and I write fiction as a hobby, mind you), rape is usually used as a cheap plot device, as it might be in that one example you gave. They never seem to focus on how the rape victim is supposed to recover from the experience, get over it (if even partially so) and get back to normal life (which sadly, doesn't always happen IRL either).
+1 to this. One of my additional duties is to serve as a Victims Advocate for victims of sexual assault on base. I've never seen a fantasy book tackle this the "right" way, and the victims reaction afterwards is never on point with reality, which makes me think the writer did zero research and simply dug into their bag of tricks to get a reaction.
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Yeah, maybe he's the god of Alzheimer's.
I mean, seriously, he's the god of family. He has NO divine family. He's not even the 'elder grandpa' of the Pantheon.
Come on. Erastil makes NO sense.
==Aelryinth
I have to take issue with that. There could be any number of reasons as to why he is not married.
1. Perhaps he has not found a female goddess that he believes is worthy of being his wife. Perhaps no goddesses out there would want to be his wife. After all, there are not that many female goddesses, and none of them (however much they may personally like Erastil) seem to share his views on gender politics.
2. Perhaps, deep down, he realizes that his views are so archaic and he would not make the woman that he loves happy. Thus, he refuses to marry because he would not want to put anybody through the pain of being his wife.
3. Perhaps he is too busy with his responsibilities towards his followers to devote any time to romantic/familial pursuits.
4. Perhaps he did have a mortal or goddess wife at one point, but she either left him or died, and now he devotes himself solely to his work.
5. Perhaps he is sterile. There are stories of gods who were made essentially barren/impotent for any number of reasons.
6. It may be a mix of any of the above.
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Yeah, maybe he's the god of Alzheimer's.
I mean, seriously, he's the god of family. He has NO divine family. He's not even the 'elder grandpa' of the Pantheon.
Come on. Erastil makes NO sense.
==Aelryinth
He's the God of family, but maybe he's also the crazy uncle fresh out of prison for killing a man in Reno (just to watch him die). He's full of family advice, Nam' stories, and sports Hells Angels tattoo's. But he's all about family...
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Removed some posts. Telling somebody that they shouldn't exist because of their views is beyond uncool, and tossing around rape to support your argument is also not cool. Don't do either of these things, and keep this thread about *fictional* religion.
Now, as to further the discussion, what would Erastil's views be towards those that are unable to have children, due to infertility? Personally, I don't think that he would be "You suck, because no babies for you!" rather he would be "You can still support your community! Go forth, adopt, gather, protect!"
I figure he's probably married to Pharasma. They just don't talk about it much.
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When I GM, Erastil is sterile. This is the driving force behind his fanatacism about the familial structure. He cannot have a family of his own, so he strives to ensure that his followers take advantage of the opportunities that he has been denied.
This makes him a little loopy, but not hypocritical.
But then, that is my take, and no one else's. You won't see it unless you play my campaign, and it is your right as a player to react however you want to it. Of course, the clergy may take it one way or another, as every cleric has there own interpretation. In Erastil's case, I believe that the interpretations are far more vast than others, since his shrines tend to be in smaller communities...
That's my take and I'm sticking to it! :)
Removed some posts. Telling somebody that they shouldn't exist because of their views is beyond uncool, and tossing around rape to support your argument is also not cool. Don't do either of these things, and keep this thread about *fictional* religion.
Now, as to further the discussion, what would Erastil's views be towards those that are unable to have children, due to infertility? Personally, I don't think that he would be "You suck, because no babies for you!" rather he would be "You can still support your community! Go forth, adopt, gather, protect!"
Or maybe these are the best people for throwing out against threats to the community, because it isn't like they are going to have kids.
Yeah, make the sterile people adventurers and foist them off on the rest of the world while the important folk have kids like real people.
;)
==Aelryinth
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Now, as to further the discussion, what would Erastil's views be towards those that are unable to have children, due to infertility?
Tying that into Louis Lyon's speculation that Erastil himself might be infertile, could make for an interesting twist.
He's the old spinster matchmaking aunt of the gods, constantly urging everyone *else* to pair off and start building a family, because he can't himself, and his 'biological clock' is thundering in his head and the only way he can have a family or be a parent is vicariously, through his followers. Because he can't have that life, he's built it up as the end-all be-all of existence, and is frustrated to the point of tears that others are just taking it all for granted and letting it slip away.
Or, hilariously, he's gay as a goose.
Personally, I don't think that he would be, "You suck, because no babies for you!" rather he would be "You can still support your community! Go forth, adopt, gather, protect!"
It would certainly be an interesting bit of characterization if Erastil (or, his church, or perhaps just lay worshippers) regarded infertility or impotence as a sign of Old Deadeye's disfavor. Them what 'can't launch an arrow' are seen as having some sort of moral failing that is the root of their problem (just as, in olden times, physical sickness was occasionally blamed on the patient for having offended the spirits, somehow, and the 'cure' involved acts of propitiation, and a donation to the shaman's beer-and-peyote fund).
Even if Erastil himself doesn't regard infertility as a sign of disfavor (except when it explicitly *is* a sign of his disfavor), superstitious followers don't necessarily have him on speed-dial, and might be prone to attributing infertility to immorality or infidelity or un-community-friendly or un-family-appropriate activities.
It's interesting how much and how little (depending on the specifics) the gods relate to each other based on alignment. Cayden, Desna, Calistria and Sarenrae seem clique-ish, and yet the presentation suggests that Cayden and Desna get along pretty well, and that Calistria gets along well with them, and Sarenrae also gets along well with them, but that Calistria and Sarenrae don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, outside of having some friends in common. Serious pairings between the gods (the couples in the Dragon Empires, both the explicit LG couple and the suggested N couple, for instance) seem to be the exact same alignment. With Iomedae as the only LG goddess of significance, and a relative newcomer to the scene, it's possible that there isn't an appropriate 'wife' for Erastil.
I really liked how Wee Jas (LN) and Norebo (CN) in Greyhawk were a couple, despite their radically different views on alignment. That sort of thing doesn't seem as common in Golarion, as the couples tend to be the same alignment, and even the gods knocking boots (Cayden and Desna, probably Cayden and Calistria) share at least one alignment component.
Opening up that alignment bias a bit could allow for Erastil to have a girlfriend who is non-lawful or non-good, and that might 'loosen him up' a bit, gender-relations-wise. (Or make for a plausible excuse for why he's a bit old-fashioned about gender roles, if he's got a wife / girlfriend / friend-with-benefits that constantly challenges his views and tweaks his nose and refuses to settle down with him and play house and 'act like a proper wife.'
Such a figure might also go unmentioned in general, because Erastil doesn't like to talk about such things, and is sure to express his displeasure to any of his clergy that attempt to nose about his love life. His higher ranking clergy might be well aware that any sort of divination on matters of romance should stay clear of questions or comments about Erastil's *own* romantic life, as either he stops answering, or he starts ranting and you get *way* Too Much Information...