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I just got the PDF for the second book tonight. I know a lot of people don't have it yet (I'm shocked that I do!)
I haven't had time to read all of it, but there is an item in the book called "Zul", a magical trident, which seems hideously overpowered.
There's really no save on the dex damage? How can that be right? This thing could slay most dragons in a few hits.
I just got the PDF for the second book tonight. I know a lot of people don't have it yet (I'm shocked that I do!)
I haven't had time to read all of it, but there is an item in the book called "Zul", a magical trident, which seems hideously overpowered.
There's really no save on the dex damage? How can that be right? This thing could slay most dragons in a few hits.
Yep. Zul is getting houseruled in my game for this reason. I've already had one climactic fight with a dragon ended because the PCs used Touch of Gracelessness and Polar Ray to drop its Dex to 0 and drop it paralyzed out of the sky, and I'm never having it happen again because it's narratively worthless.
I guess the only saving grace is that it's an immediate action, so it's only once per round.
Still though, I'm pretty sure I will house-rule the Dex damage down to 1 point on a successful save.
Are you going to disallow the 4th level spell 'Calicific Touch' from the APG then as well? (it's the same effect)
If an enemy of the party survives 7 rounds of all out combat with Zul's wielder, I don't think it's dying to Dex damage...
Are you going to disallow the 4th level spell 'Calicific Touch' from the APG then as well? (it's the same effect)
If an enemy of the party survives 7 rounds of all out combat with Zul's wielder, I don't think it's dying to Dex damage...
The problem is when a BBEG-- not just an enemy of the party, but a named villain with two pages of backstory and a significant part in the story-- gets tagged in the surprise round and then tagged again and gets turned to stone because d4s should just be called 'drop 4s' because of how they sometimes refuse to roll no matter how hard you shake them before you drop them.
I don't care if it's a shark or some mook. I just don't like ancient beings of immeasurable power getting punked.
And my group purposefully avoids spells like that. We call them 'Fun Ruiners' because nothing is less fun than just screwing over a BBEG who the GM was looking forward to play and in turn making your night more dull. I once had a barbarian with a big, re-written backstory that I was really excited to run against the party get scry-and-die teleported on, surprised, and hit with sirroco. He was automatically exhausted or something, no save, because the party went twice and I rolled low on initiative. After wiping the floor with the guy with no problems whatsoever (he couldn't do anything except feebly attack and kept being knocked prone because of exhaustion penalties), the party took sirroco off of their spell lists because it just made the encounter boring. It didn't make his 150 hp go down any faster-- it just made it as interesting as watching paint dry to fight him because he couldn't use his powers and couldn't even get up to fight them.
Rant off!
Are you going to disallow the 4th level spell 'Calicific Touch' from the APG then as well? (it's the same effect)
If an enemy of the party survives 7 rounds of all out combat with Zul's wielder, I don't think it's dying to Dex damage...
Calicific Touch isnt quite the same. That spell requires an arcane spellcaster to get dangerously close to something, and then manage to land touch attacks. Even using spectral hand it's not that bad, cause it means the caster is not using other spells in the meantime.
The issue I have with this weapon is that it's already very powerful without this ability, and the weilder can go about his normal fighting routine without the opponent having any real defense against it.
I don't really mind when the BBEG gets toasted like that. It means either he was woefully unprepared or the party used a great tactic, and should be rewarded. This weapon does not require such tactics however, and it's virtually impossible to prepare for.
Just change the seven times a day useage to 3 and I think it's fine.
It's a "seven times day" at any time weapon. AFTER having struck. Right.
With a permanent, no save effect. At 18k gp ?
Most people would take two... Especially since if it is ingame, someone will be able to copy it...
Even changing it down to 3/day will kill quite a number of opponents. Ancient Blue Dragon (CR 18 ) ? Fire Giant, Frost Giant, Hill giant ? Right
Would you mind posting the full stat block for those of us who won't see a copy for another week?
Would you mind posting the full stat block for those of us who won't see a copy for another week?
Sure.
Slot none; Price 18,395 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
Zul is a +1 human bane trident that has been passed
down from chieftain to chieftain in Krelloort’s tribe for
generations. Zul’s three-pronged head is crafted of magically
strengthened seashells, and its haft is composed of rough,
twisted coral that deals 1 point of damage each time it is
grasped, unless the wielder has a natural armor bonus or is
wearing gauntlets.
As an immediate action after a successful melee attack
with the trident, Zul’s wielder can transmute the substance
of the target creature into rigid coral. This attack deals 1d4
points of Dexterity damage and slows the target (as the
spell) for 1 round as its flesh calcifies. A DC 16 Fortitude save
negates the slow effect but not the ability damage. A target
reduced to 0 Dexterity is permanently petrified, transformed
into inert, mindless coral. Break enchantment or restoration
reverses all of the effects of this calcification. This ability can
be used up to 7 times per day.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, calcific touch
(Advanced Players Guide 208), summon monster I; Cost
9,355 gp
For context, in the hands of its CR7 weilder, it looks like this:
bite +11 (1d4+5), 4 claws +11 (1d4+5)
Ranged Zul +10 (1d8+8)
plus a smidge more if he Blood Frenzies or Power Attacks
Though the debate is not if this is too powerful in the BBEG's hands, but too powerful in the PCs' hands once they nab it from him.
Thanks for posting it Erik.
That is a pretty nasty weapon. However, I don't think that it is going to cause any problems in my campaign. Even though many of my players have high system mastery, they don't go out of their way to abuse the system.
Is it a powerful weapon? Yes, my players will love it.
Is the weapon terribly under priced? Yes, 1d4 dex and potential slow all at the cost of a +1 bonus is silly.
Could it possibly be exploited? Yes, especially if you let players make more of these or they make some ridiculous dex damage build.
But it's not the most powerful or game breaking thing in the game, I'm not going to let the party make more of them, and no one in my group will completely change the direction of their characters at level 5 just to cheese out a dex damaging build.
And while this is a powerful weapon, I think some of you are giving it far too much credit. Yes, by itself it can kill quite a few monsters after 3 or 4 rounds of melee combat. But honestly, if your character is at a level where it can survive 4 rounds in melee, it could probably have been optimized to do enough damage to kill it outright anyway.
Honestly, I am more concerned about my players getting their hands on that Boarding Pike of Repelling. At will, swift action 20 ft reach is absolutely disgusting.
Agreed. I'm concerned about the Boarding pike of repelling in the hands of my groups Ranger with favoured enemy: Human.
Zul is powerful but I don't think its a game breaker for my group. It'll give them a scare when its used against them and then they'll probably sell it because it doesn't fit any of their fighting styles.
In a campaign with a pole-arm fighter I'd be concerned though.
Si, if I apply this property two short-swords and twf it will be pretty awesome.
Also, can you use the ability after each attack? So twice in a round for a full-attacking lvl5 fighter?
It's a swift action to activate, so no more than once a round to use the ability.
You can't use the ability more than once a round, but it lasts an entire round.
This essentially means that if you can 5 foot step, you can full attack anyone within 25 feet.
This also means that you can full attack a guy adjacent to you, and if you drop him while still having more attacks left, you can make the remaining attacks against anyone up to 25 feet away.
And a maneuver specialist with combat reflexes could have an obscene perimeter of battlefield control.
Honestly, I am more concerned about my players getting their hands on that Boarding Pike of Repelling. At will, swift action 20 ft reach is absolutely disgusting.
This is a scary weapon!
Again though, I think a limit of X/day will re-balance it. Probably 5/day will keep the weapon useful but remove any possible abuse.
You can't use the ability more than once a round, but it lasts an entire round.
This essentially means that if you can 5 foot step, you can full attack anyone within 25 feet.
This also means that you can full attack a guy adjacent to you, and if you drop him while still having more attacks left, you can make the remaining attacks against anyone up to 25 feet away.
And a maneuver specialist with combat reflexes could have an obscene perimeter of battlefield control.
Not quite.
While the pike is extended, the wielder does not threaten adjacent creatures or creatures up to 15 feet away.
So, you will need add some "exactly"s into your description above.
@Varthanna and Maezer, I was talking about the Boarding Pike, not Zul. Boarding Pike is a swift action for 20 foot reach that does last an entire round. And because it is a swift action, you can do it in the middle of your full attack.
You can't use the ability more than once a round, but it lasts an entire round.
This essentially means that if you can 5 foot step, you can full attack anyone within 25 feet.
This also means that you can full attack a guy adjacent to you, and if you drop him while still having more attacks left, you can make the remaining attacks against anyone up to 25 feet away.
And a maneuver specialist with combat reflexes could have an obscene perimeter of battlefield control.
Not quite.
While the pike is extended, the wielder does not threaten adjacent creatures or creatures up to 15 feet away.So, you will need add some "exactly"s into your description above.
Not really.
Want to full attack someone 5 feet away from you? 5 foot step backwards, and don't extend the pike.
Want to full attack someone 10 feet away from you? Don't move and attack normally.
Want to full attack someone 15 feet away from you? You can either 5 foot step forward and attack normally, or you can 5 foot step backwards and extend the pike.
Want to full attack someone 20 feet away from you? Extend the pike and attack.
Want to full attack someone 25 feet away from you? 5 foot step forward and extend the pike.
Zul is powerful but I don't think its a game breaker for my group. It'll give them a scare when its used against them and then they'll probably sell it because it doesn't fit any of their fighting styles.
In a campaign with a pole-arm fighter I'd be concerned though.
Why the concern with the trident and a pole-arm fighter. Trident is in the spear weapon group and does not have reach. Or were you talking about the boarding pike?
RE:Zul, what if it was changed so the DC16 Fort save negated the Dex damage but NOT the slowed effect? Would that gimp it too much?