I searched the boards and found several, but didn't find an answer to these questions:
1) Assume I am a sorcerer of a bloodline that grants me a natural armor bonus, and I cast Alter Self.
Do I lose my natural armor bonus?
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious,
Well this is not obvious, not to me anyway.
My natural armor bonus was a class feature that was very much part of my old form... but did not depend on it as such. I think. However that class feature wasn't one that "allowed me to add" a feature. It just flat added one.
I think the intention here is that I retain my natural armor?
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2) I use Alter Self to turn from my natural Elven state into a Gnome (perverse, I know).
Is my speed reduced to 20'?
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Speed is conspicuously absent, both from this paragraph and the spell description.
However the Enlarge and Reduce Person spells (which, I note, are not of the Polymorph subschool) explicitly state that they do not change the target's speed. I wonder: Do they do so because they break the general rule, or is it because they are "newbie" spells, and reiterate the rule to help new players along?
I think that the intention is that Alter Person leaves my speed unchanged?
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Just read the alter self spell. It tells you what it does.
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: dark vision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
You do not lose any of your abilities. Your base travel speed remains the same. You do not lose any natural armor. You only gain stuff. I know we have all been taught to be rule lawyers but you can take some things at face value.
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To further clear this up there are small creatures with 40 base land speeds. There are small creatures with natural armor. There are medium creatures with 20 movement speed. so when "altering yourself" you are just taking on aspects of another form for the purpose of garnering additional abilities since this is a magical effect and you can curtail it to accomplish whatever you like inside the scope of the spell just assume you take the form of a quick gnome with a tough hide.
I searched the boards and found several, but didn't find an answer to these questions:
1) Assume I am a sorcerer of a bloodline that grants me a natural armor bonus, and I cast Alter Self.
Do I lose my natural armor bonus?
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious,Well this is not obvious, not to me anyway.
My natural armor bonus was a class feature that was very much part of my old form... but did not depend on it as such. I think. However that class feature wasn't one that "allowed me to add" a feature. It just flat added one.
I think the intention here is that I retain my natural armor?
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2) I use Alter Self to turn from my natural Elven state into a Gnome (perverse, I know).
Is my speed reduced to 20'?
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.Speed is conspicuously absent, both from this paragraph and the spell description.
However the Enlarge and Reduce Person spells (which, I note, are not of the Polymorph subschool) explicitly state that they do not change the target's speed. I wonder: Do they do so because they break the general rule, or is it because they are "newbie" spells, and reiterate the rule to help new players along?
I think that the intention is that Alter Person leaves my speed unchanged?
You answered your own question in your Post..
All Natural Armor Bonuses from the Sorcerer's Bloodline have (EX) next to them (extraordinary)... and you lose that when you Polymorph..IF you WANT to... you could just change into a tougher skinned version of any creature.
As for the 2nd Question...Alter Self Spell... its pretty clear.. you lose any Movement TYPES but not MOVEMENT SPEED..
So if you were a Gnome Sorcerer you would not gain any SPEED with this Spell.. unless >>although you could get a new movement type (Swim 30) if you Altered yourself to an Aquatic Elf.
If you are a Human Sorcerer and you changed into a Gnome.. you would still have a 30 movement rate because the spell does not say you gain or lose movement rate (unless its Swim)..
Note that you could just change into a Kobold.. and get Darkvision instead of the lightvision the Gnome Gets... plus Kobolds move at 30 feet anyways
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Just read the alter self spell.
What, you think I haven't? Please don't insult me.
You do not lose any of your abilities.
That's flat out wrong, the polymorph subschool clearly states I lose all ex and su abilities dependent on form, and also all class features dependent on form.
Your base travel speed remains the same.
That was my assumption, but I would really like to see some argumentation or evidence for this beyond what I have already provided.
You do not lose any natural armor.
Again, that was my assumption, but I think it is debatable, and your assertion without argumentation is not really helping me.
The "obvious" text is referring to situations where you lose your arms or legs as an example. If the the class feature would depend on arms or legs then that class feature would be lost.
Enlarge person is from a different school and is not breaking any rules related to polymorph
Speed is not called out I do wish it had been, but most GM's would give you the land speed of whatever race you changed into. <--There are no rules I can find to support this statement.
I would also say you keep your natural armor bonus if it came from a class. It is dependent upon you having skin, not skin of a certain race.
Note that you could just change into a Kobold.. and get Darkvision instead of the lightvision the Gnome Gets... plus Kobolds move at 30 feet anyways
I said it was perverse 8-)
Speed is not called out I do wish it had been, but most GM's would give you the land speed of whatever race you changed into. <--There are no rules I can find to support this statement.
There is this rule:
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
I was right. I just missed the rule even though I read the paragraph. :)
There is this rule:
*facepalm*
*sigh*I must've read that paragraph a hundred times...
Thank you, Are.
There is this rule:
*facepalm*
*sigh*I must've read that paragraph a hundred times...
Thank you, Are.
Yah same here... Thanks Are