Recently in the thread "Warning: The Eve Way" I saw so much attention given over to the mechanics of Combat and wanted to draw more attention toward the other aspects of game play. So in the spirt of that I ask this question:
What aspects of the game in general would make your ideal MMO RPG?
I will post what I posted in the other thread for frame of reference. I guess it can also serve as an introductory post for myself as well. *Smiles*
"I would like to start off that I do not know about Pathfinder, other then that it is based off of 3.5 DnD and is a continuation of that rule set, to the best of my knowledge. I am very familiar with DnD and the 3.5 system in general. I just found out about this project from kickstart.com and I am debating on if I should support it or not.
I have read almost all 6 pages of this tread, (The first five, and then a quick gloss over the 6th) and it amazes me that, out of the entire depth of complexity that goes into a game of this nature; it is the PvP and Combat that are focused on almost exclusively. And on both camps, I hear very few constructive positive solutions.
I played EVE Online for 3 years, EVE had many positive and negative elements; for the sake of the developers let me focus on the positive elements that I actually liked about the game.
One of the primary draws of EVE Online, IS its player driven sandbox style of play. It draws people to it, who want to feel like their actions have impact, that they can grow with and shape the world with their growing. That they can construct empires, influence politics, actually make something, breathing life into until it starts to take off on its own. They are addicted to their Investment, to the idea that they can someday create this sprawling empire if things align just right, if they just get the people to support them; or, they see themselves one day playing part in a decisive battle that will change the course of the game in some lasting way.
My biggest criticism of EVE, is mostly that they are shallow. They didn't find a way to effectively allow the player to become a free radical in their world, AND tie them in to the story, the environment. Their is no Co-Creation, and the only RPG elements of the game, are mostly found outside of the game itself, in the blogs that lead up to major game changes, and a few in game events. It leaves a disenchanted feel overall, and the only thing you are actually getting out of the game IS your investment, and being the small dog on the block, it makes it increasingly difficult for new players to see those grand dreams becoming reality. So it initially generates a RABIDLY loyal user base, built around their various interests, their various investments. But as with most games, eventually you are going to feel capped and stagnant, like many people do in real life, even in a sandbox player driven world, where the people are constantly every day writing their history on those digital pages.
Writing their history they are too, I think their are more news stories about the internal politics of EVE, with more of a user base following those stories, that history, then in any other game. Because the players matter. That is the primary draw of EVE.
When they finally announced that CCP was going to do World of Darkness Online in partnership with White Wolf? OMG I did a little happy dance JIG. I love eve's immersive game play if you can get over how shallow its content is and focus on the player driven aspect of it. I am not really a fan of Space Games (One of the primary reasons I left EVE, it just couldn't hold my attention or desire since I wasn't a mover and shaker and the actually game play was hollow.) But put that same player driven concepts into a fantasy setting or an urban fantasy setting... You have me frothing at the mouth hook line and sinker. A sand box style MMO, built with the partnership of table top storytelling masters, with the promise of having both and Immersive player driven game world, and game play; with the feel that you were taking part in something majestic, something greater. EVE's skill based system where the older you are the more powerful you become makes PERFECT sense in that setting also. It is those dynamics that make the game take on a life of its own, that bring a whole new level of politics and social community that is the GLUE to games like this. Pillars of the community, so to speak. And while a group of novices should be able to bring one of these pillars down, shaking up the status quo. It should still feel like something special.
No one should be untouchable, like in WoW, where you could have 1000 lvl 1's beating on a lvl 85, and he could fart and kill half of them. But those who have put their blood sweat and tears into becoming those pillars, leaders, the glue of nations. They shouldn't be trivialized either.
That being said, if the Dev's want it to be both player driven, but risk free (no permadeath/sever death penalties) Then this sandbox style RPG is going to need STRONG RPG elements where the players feel like they are co creating a story, and a damn good one; or the politics isn't going to be anywhere near as stable or epic in scope. It is that element of risk that draws people together and creates communities, and it is communities that make most sandbox style games fun, communities that keep people coming back. If I hadn't been in my Corp, working toward a common goal, I would have left EVE alot sooner then I did, alot sooner. It was only when the Corp fell apart after some betrayals and hard times that I actually left the game for good, and if it had been set in a fantasy setting, or had an immersive single player draw where I could still feel like my actions mattered, and I could still take place in the co creation of the history that scares and marks the world of EVE, I would have stayed.
Creating the perfect storm, of allowing players to feel like their actions matter, that they are taking part in something grand, allowing the flourishing of a player driven economics, with the appropriate understanding of economics to plan for sink holes so money generated doesn't over flood the system. Having a high degree of customization on all levels over the aesthetics and abilities of the characters to increase their overall attachment to their avatar, and increase individualism. Balancing political tension, and the development of factions and communities, and many many more elements, are what could make a promising Sandbox RPG into a truly AMAZING experience.
Combat will play a role in that, and it may even play a very important role as that is how nations shape and change their boarders, but it is no more important then many of the other aspects that could also be discussed. Lets not forget at the rich environment and game play itself and how they are going to introduce the PVP such that it engages and helps this model succeed rather then fail.
The Pefect Storm has more then one element, things truly have to be just right. Over emphasis on one element will throw the entirety of the projects scope off balance."
Just a few off the top of my head:
1. Open-ended advancement. I won't be limited to 51 or 71 or 76 Talent Points that arbitrarily limit what my character can do.
2. Open-ended development. I can learn to do anything in the game; I'm not limited by the developers ideas of what my class should be.
3. Open-ended exploration. I will always have an unexplored frontier just around the corner (the next time they expand the map).
I don't see how you can have every player have the ability to be a free radical and make massive changes to a world mediated by players.
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@Decius How does anyone IRL do anything big? Through lots and lots of work. The system shouldn't have a big red easy button whereby simply jumping on it let's you manipulate the world at whim. Rather, there should be a path of advancement such that anyone with a modicum of skill can do it. However, nothing says it should be fast or easy.
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In Anarchy Online, the devs would occasionally chronicle the server's history by incorporating player events into the game's lore.
For instance, I was a part of a heavy RP Omni-tek Corporation that sold advanced robotic technologies. The guild was fairly well known within the RP community, so eventually, the developers created an item in-game that would occasionally drop from certain robotic NPCs. If you read the item description, you would see that it supposedly came from our guild, and explained what we did briefly.
This is a pretty small thing for the developers to do, but I remember feeling pretty awesome about it. We had become a part of the lore.
Chronicling bigger events poses some challenges. First, there's a lot going on in the game world. Which events are worthy of recognition? Having a small, single server will be beneficial in this respect. Second, how do you maintain player expectations/jealousy? If shaping the lore/world is a core part of the game, how do you prevent folks from feeling like they're being ignored if their contributions aren't incorporated - because realistically, the developers can't chronicle everything that every character does.
For me, I think as long as the RP community maintains a (loose) continuity of server lore, I'm going to be satisfied. I don't necessarily need the developers to recognize everything that occurs in game changing ways, as long as they give us the tools to do it ourselves (i.e. town building, guild wars, resource management, etc.) and don't overwrite the community lore. If that were the case, I'd be totally satisfied with 'fluff' recognition from time to time, like the example I gave above.
So I guess to summarize, my vision of co-creation is to allow the players to create a community lore with the tools given to us by GW, with occasional recognition of that lore by the devs in manageable ways.
I don't see how you can have every player have the ability to be a free radical and make massive changes to a world mediated by players.
I am not necessarily referring to individual player actions, but take WoW for instance. You grid to the top level, you enter their "Epic" end game content, only to be reduced to Grinding the same Bosses over and over again. "Oh yeah, we killed Mag'Maw like 100 times already."
Like some of the other people have said, creating lasting change to your environment isn't an easy task, but when a group of people do something momentous, like take down a world boss, I kinda think it should stay dead, unless it is in its write up that you don't actually kill it or something. The Tarrasque for instance.
I am talking about the development of nations from frontiers, brought forth on the backs of like minded determined individuals. The slow build up of a massive trade empire, crafted by the wit of Merchant Princes.
Not everyone is going to be a central figure, but a common soldier can feel just as important playing his part, as a general organizing the hunt for that dragon that has been terrorizing and razzing the town. It is the sense of community that is important in that regard.
For me I would like to see an open ability to change the world...build and destroy. But, this should not be something that is easy and/or fast. I hope attempts to change the world are possible, but extremely non-trivial. Even something as simple as a house should take lots of resources (which of course cannot be carried by a single individual).
In addition, I hope for an extremely well developed and meaningful crafting system. I would like near infinite combinations of stat specific options in crafting, as well as the occasional (but consistent) "organic effects" in which particular mixtures of materials provide more "interesting combinations" for better or worse, than is mathematically the sum of parts.
Give me these two things with any standard combat or UI and some pretty but simple graphics and I will sub for life.
A list if I may:
- the ineraction of capstones is a great concern since what will make or break the game for me is the crafting. However, I recall that if you deviate from the path towards your "class" (archetype) capstone, you're boned out of it. If this is true, this torpedoes crafters, even if crafting has its own capstone. Crafting characters should never be alts, such skills should be encouraged as an active component of your character.
- Early in EVE the agents giving you missions would ocassionally warn you about MoO (Masters of Ownage) that was later removed due to exploiting a Concord bug, slaughtering hundreds with impunity in Yulai (then *the* hub system of Empire). Not once since has any group been acknowledged in game. The short version of this is: acknowledge in-game what is going on in the sandbox. Town criers should be doing just that. Wanted posters should be posted. The in-game "world map" should show the fiefs/baronies,etc carved from the hinterlands.
- The sandbox has many players doing things that affect the sand being played with. As the world is afffected there are going to be records kept by the three NPC-ruled cities. We should be able to consult those records in-game.
- As cute as the Golarion calendar is, it is not intuitively named. Use the real world calendar.
- Update things regularly! I cannot emphasis enough how important keeping that feel of a living sandbox is going to be if Good Guy Town / Bad Guy Town / Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy never change. If wars happen, walls and buildings are going to get messed up, bodies litter the streets and so on. Crusaders on pilgramage travel the road to and from the Worldwound. Once in a while you might want to surprise the community by putting on some monster suits and wreaking havoc until the players bring you down. Repairs will happen after wars too - show them happening to give players an idea of how the gathering resources and building processes are going to look like in-game.
- Enchanting items should not be a "mass production" process save for the low-end stuff. Use the 4:1 time ratio in combination with character down time! Player logs on, does his things, logs off in the enchanting facility and resumes the project in elapsed time. A staff of power takes 235 days to enchant - in this case, the enchanting project takes (1,880/4) hours' down time, maximum of say 8 hours per real day, to complete the enchantment - about 60 days active subscription time. Maybe the log-on screen shows that character enchanting in the workshop?
- I appreciate the merit badges, but oft times work is such that I will be lucky to play as often as a few days a month. Presuming a skill queue, *please* let the system be able to handle as long a queue as my account is paid for. When I get back I might need to play for a week to complete the badges, which is fine by me.
I actually hope crafting is complex and developed enough to be the focus of a character. It is up to you if you wish to "multi-archetype".
Although, I would be fine if crafting were one of the neutral development trees, so as not to limit the fun of others who want to craft and play another class...as long as I can spend all of my 2.5 years maxing it out. They can take 5 years to max out crafting and their class.
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I have never played Eve. I played WoW and ToR. Just my thoughts.
I know lots of people like crafting,gathering. I am not one of them.
One of my big issues with WoW is in order to keep up money wise, your toon had to gather and craft. I am playing a larger then life hero, all I want to do is go around, do quests, kill monsters, ect.. I don't want to walk around and pick flowers.
Please don't make gathering/ crafting vital to the games economy.
Why on earth was this moved to video games when it's talking about PFO ?
I have never played Eve. I played WoW and ToR. Just my thoughts.
I know lots of people like crafting,gathering. I am not one of them.
One of my big issues with WoW is in order to keep up money wise, your toon had to gather and craft. I am playing a larger then life hero, all I want to do is go around, do quests, kill monsters, ect.. I don't want to walk around and pick flowers.
Please don't make gathering/ crafting vital to the games economy.
It will be vital inasmuch as crafters will make all the stuff - loot drop should not be any better that crafted gear. It will not be vital in that you NEED to craft to make the kind of coin you need in WoW.