Hello!
I was harshly criticized by my playing group for my Fort Drelev encounter. I know that there is much I could do to improve.
A.
What I wonder though is if my situation is unique here in that I have very knowledgeable players and/or my skills as a rules-knowing GM are very terrible (which exacerbates the issue-still, I already know that my players know the game far better than I do). Essentially, I want to vent a little and to try to figure out how typical my situation is?
I feel bad about this encounter at Drelev's because I walked away from the session feeling great! For the first time since they hit level 4 I'd been able to actually CHALLENGE the party! And I did it with an interesting battle- multiple levels of battle (ground, 30 foot staircase, inside a tower, on the battlements), three types of enemies (wizard, archers, hill giants) Re. Challenge: (e.g. 2 players never take damage ever in any session, but in this one, I'd finally been able to present them a little bit of a threat).
But then I was criticized for being too tough by some and for being incompetent by others (They thought I should have TPKed them and must have been fudging dice, or that I must have just been incompetent at preparing encounters).
They have given me a lot of good things to think about to improve. I accept the fact that I constantly let down my group because I don't know the rules well enough :(, but it's frustrating. I really HATE memorizing rules. I play the game because I like the stories. Rules are work, and they are unclear. :(. I do what I can to keep the rules straight though for my players because I know they like them. But the game has become very, very stressful for me-I can sense disapproval from the players with every encounter I make for them.
I had so much fun during this session because I wasn't arguing about the rules with anyone, because I thought I was actually playing the encounter properly, and then I received several page-long email complaints. A few months back I had to take a break from GMing in part because I felt so badly after every game- I was very stressed-out and unhappy. I don't want to be stressed out :(. But I like telling stories and creating them with others.
Still, this thread is aimed at questions about mechanical things rather than confronting my group about this- I already did that and they did try to help... but I'm just not good enough and don't have enough time to get the rules to a perfect level to satisfy them. :(
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B. So I'd like to [share out of frustration and to] know:
1. How well optimized are your players in Kingmaker by book 4? What CR level can they take down?
----In mine, they [group of 4 level 7s +2 level 8s+ 1 level 4 +1 NPC bard who just did a singing buff to give a +1 (Fighter, Witch, Oracle (Fire), Druid with animal, Ranger with large wolf), Wizard, another Fighter (level 4)-Point buy is slightly above what paizo recommends; I believe we used 32 PB.] took down Vordakai from book 3 in 3 rounds even though I placed Vordakai behind a glass wall up 30 feet in the air, raised his level by two and added a CR 7 cyclops to the room. (If I recall properly). So that seemed to be a bit too easy, especially since the adventure recommends CR 9 to fight Vordakai. Is that...if not normal...expected?
The Fighter has a 33 AC I believe, at level 8 now and is immune to arrows (?) He also has a pegasus that flies and if he's not on it, he has fly crafted on his armor. IF he's ever on a charge-line, he gets a 3X damage on all charges if he hits...and he will almost always hit.
The Ranger has AC 28 and 3 attacks, at I believe +14/+14/+9 and +4 v. humans with his bow... he could almost win the Archery competition in Book 5 at his current level.
The others are more normal.
The Fighter and Ranger also claim that their characters should be the weakest in the group and that the others aren't playing optimized enough.... It's hard to scale encounters since everyone else's AC is below 22 except the Druid (who is 26 I think?)
I allowed crafting, but their wealth per level is at level 7 or 8-the appropriate amount. It's not a monty haul campaign. I also did not use the Kingdom-selling magic items rules AND I limited the gold level that they could purchase any magic item to kingdom built buildings- in order to slow down the magic christmas tree effect a bit and to make things more manageable on my end.
2. How did your liberation of Fort Drelev go?
--For Fort Drelev, they beelined there, avoiding all other encounters, at level 8 (nearly level 9-essentially 2 minor encounters would have leveled them all up, and they all leveled after this session). Only 4 players (Fighter, Witch, Druid, Ranger) showed up for this game. Now, Fort Drelev should be approached at CR 11. It should also be a sneaking game and they did meet the refugee who told them that they should sneak in--they didn't trust her and they didn't want to mess around with that, so they demanded an audience with Baron Drelev. He put them up in his fort.
They spent a night and then were escorted into a courtyard where they were jumped by 4 archers (lvl 4) on the walls, 4 hill giants at the courtyard exit. And the Wizard was located in a tower 30 feet up, shooting out a small near-murder-hole window that gave him 3/4 cover. I used the 6-player conversion for the wizard, but all that really added was 2 extra level 7 spells... and he failed at using Forcecage on the first round.
The party managed to flee, flying out to safety after barely managing to disable the Wizard.
One player was upset because the hill giants knocked the player down to 0 hp in 2 rounds and that player was not a front line fighter. My explanation was that the particular player was the closest to the enemies...
The fighter was disappointed in the session because in his opinion, the Wizard was played incompetently :(. He said if I had played right, I should have TPKed them since the encounter was CR 14 and they were only 4 PCs at level 8.
He followed that up by stating that he was annoyed that the CR was so inappropriately high and that it's not a fun challenge to fight something far above their expected challenge level. I'm not as worried about that because story-wise, the CR WAS appropriate given that they didn't slink around and decided to face things with guns blazing.
--I opened with Force Cage on the Druid- who the wizard figured
probably had been the big monster in the sea, so he didn't want him
changing forms. (This was a 6-player group spell list)
Surprise Round.
--I followed with disintegrate on the Ranger (Paizo's spell list)
Players finally locate what's hitting them. Roll initiative. Wizard wins.
--I followed with chain lightning centered on the Fighter (Paizo's spell list)
Then the players FINALLY got an action.
--Then I was going to use empowered lightning bolt, but the Fighter was out of sightrange, so I used Enervation on the Druid??. (both in paizo's list)
-Then the Fighter got inside (squeezed in the window) and the Wizard activated his staff for a fire wall. (in paizo's character sheet)
The fighter has the wall centered on him, so he just walks forward (takes no damage) and knocks the wizard to 20 hp. So, the wizard steps 5 ft back and casts his escape spell.
I was told that I "picked the WORST targets for your spells. [I should have] Chain Lightning the Witch. Disintegrate the Druid. Force Cage the Fighter. Target our worst saves, not our strongest." and that the Wizard who they were fighting should have had a potion of greater invisibility and he should have prepared more area of effect spells :(
Need to stop the Ranger? Windwall.
Need to stop the Casters? Cast Silence on a rock and throw it at their feet.
Need to stop the Fighter? Any Enchantment spell should do the trick.
I really had thought what I did made the most sense... Force Cage the guy who can change his form to be like the lake monster and the Ranger, Disintegrate the guy who can shoot me full of arrows, chain lightning centered on the fighter to get him down a little. On re-reading the stat block admittedly it seems that the wizard's tactics were to focus on people one-by-one... I misread that. I also didn't see his special ability to give +6 damage per spell...
-So the players' current opinion (In their LG nation] is to round up all their army and all the PCs and NPC allies, and destroy the fort of Fort Drelev...which is fine and still valid, but I can't say I've seen anyone take that tact on the boards. That's not a problem- that's more of an interesting point.
3. So Question 3- If you have very powerful characters and almost NO time to prepare for the Rules part of the game; how do you run things? My players don't trust me to know the rules properly so they don't trust me when I say "GM says so." They just say that I'm being unfair because we "follow the rules all the other times."
===I don't know what to do any more. I can't challenge the party AT ALL with CR-appropriate encounters, and when I challenge them, I am criticized for being unfair or incompetent. CR14 v. only 4 of them was a bit too much- but STORYWISE it was very appropriate given that the Fort had an entire day to prepare for an ambush- I actually think I went light on them- I could have sent all the hill giants and all the guards-- and that would have been justified since they had approached the city on a flying pegasus and as a polymorphed druid as a sea monster who looked like Lil Hooktongue (!) [Suffice to say, panic levels in the city and liberation points are well in the negatives].
--
Essentially, I'm so nervous that I'm unhappy to run games for my group any more. I don't have time or the interest in the rules to do things right enough regarding the rules. But I love the story and I'm really looking forward to finishing it.
My group has given me the best advice they can; I've taken what I can. And I'm just very sad. Can a GM like myself, who values a deep and involved story and who doesn't have the inclination to memorize rules or the time to study the rules extensively before every session, run a game on the fly while satisfying players that he is doing his absolute best to be fair? *sigh*. I really just play the game to try to relax and I cannot relax. It's frustrating.
I will need time to read all of this, but I see issues already by just skimming. I will write a detailed response and post it.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
I feel bad about this encounter at Drelev's because I walked away from the session feeling great! For the first time since they hit level 4 I'd been able to actually CHALLENGE the party! And I did it with an interesting battle- multiple levels of battle (ground, 30 foot staircase, inside a tower, on the battlements), three types of enemies (wizard, archers, hill giants) Re. Challenge: (e.g. 2 players never take damage ever in any session, but in this one, I'd finally been able to present them a little bit of a threat).
But then I was criticized for being too tough by some and for being incompetent by others (They thought I should have TPKed them and must have been fudging dice, or that I must have just been incompetent at preparing encounters).
Depending on the level of the wizards and archers they probably should have been TPK'd. As for someone saying you were incompetent, and others saying you were too tough, those comments are not useful, but it does show a divide in the group as to what is acceptable.
They have given me a lot of good things to think about to improve. I accept the fact that I constantly let down my group because I don't know the rules well enough :(, but it's frustrating. I really HATE memorizing rules. I play the game because I like the stories. Rules are work, and they are unclear. :(. I do what I can to keep the rules straight though for my players because I know they like them. But the game has become very, very stressful for me-I can sense disapproval from the players with every encounter I make for them.
Rules take time to learn. I have been playing since 3.5 so about 8 years, and I still get rules wrong at times. They do impact the game greatly though so if you are to GM for a rules-heavy group they need to be learned.
I had so much fun during this session because I wasn't arguing about the rules with anyone, because I thought I was actually playing the encounter properly, and then I received several page-long email complaints. A few months back I had to take a break from GMing in part because I felt so badly after every game- I was very stressed-out and unhappy. I don't want to be stressed out :(. But I like telling stories and creating them with others.
The best GM's make the rule and stories work together. It seems you are more of a narrative GM. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does not work for everyone. Some people like myself enjoy consistency.
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----In mine, they [group of 4 level 7s +2 level 8s+ 1 level 4 +1 NPC bard who just did a singing buff to give a +1 (Fighter, Witch, Oracle (Fire), Druid with animal, Ranger with large wolf), Wizard, another Fighter (level 4)-Point buy is slightly above what paizo recommends; I believe we used 32 PB.] took down Vordakai from book 3 in 3 rounds even though I placed Vordakai behind a glass wall up 30 feet in the air, raised his level by two and added a CR 7 cyclops to the room. (If I recall properly). So that seemed to be a bit too easy, especially since the adventure recommends CR 9 to fight Vordakai. Is that...if not normal...expected?
32 point buy is 3.5 and I would not have allowed it for Pathfinder, especially with experienced players. 20 is more than enough. You also have a large group, and giving him more backup would have been more effective than raising his level too much. When I ran him I changed all his spells out.
The Fighter has a 33 AC I believe, at level 8 now and is immune to arrows (?) He also has a pegasus that flies and if he's not on it, he has fly crafted on his armor. IF he's ever on a charge-line, he gets a 3X damage on all charges if he hits...and he will almost always hit.
That AC of 33 is probably from the high point buy, but the AP's assume a point buy of 15 is used. Most groups dont use above 20. He should not have a pegasus either. I take that back. I won't say what another group should or should not do, but it seems you are way to generous with point buy, and everything else. The wizard is probably crafting which also help to explain the high AC. It seems the fighter took the mounted charging feats. Kill the pegasus, and give him a horse. Life will be a lot easier for you. He is also not immune to arrows, not by PF rules anyway.
The Ranger has AC 28 and 3 attacks, at I believe +14/+14/+9 and +4 v. humans with his bow... he could almost win the Archery competition in Book 5 at his current level.
That is about right if humans are his favored enemies, but he can't use that human bonus against the targets in book 5.
The Fighter and Ranger also claim that their characters should be the weakest in the group and that the others aren't playing optimized enough.... It's hard to scale encounters since everyone else's AC is below 22 except the Druid (who is 26 I think?)
If everyone was equal the others would be better than them, most likely, but if you have really good players or ones that like to optimize the the classes don't matter as much.
I allowed crafting, but their wealth per level is at level 7 or 8-the appropriate amount. It's not a monty haul campaign. I also did not use the Kingdom-selling magic items rules AND I limited the gold level that they could purchase any magic item to kingdom built buildings- in order to slow down the magic christmas tree effect a bit and to make things more manageable on my end.
How did the fighter get an AC of 33? Monty haul does not just refer to magic items. High PB and allowing the players to get mostly anything they want is also a factor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------One player was upset because the hill giants knocked the player down to 0 hp in 2 rounds and that player was not a front line fighter. My explanation was that the particular player was the closest to the enemies...
You did things correctly. If he did not want to be target he should have stayed away.
The fighter was disappointed in the session because in his opinion, the Wizard was played incompetently :(. He said if I had played right, I should have TPKed them since the encounter was CR 14 and they were only 4 PCs at level 8.
They also have very powerful PC's for their level. They also have NPC backup. If he wants to die by an appropriate encounter I am sure the posters on the forum can make it happen. I will be glad to help. :)
--I followed with disintegrate on the Ranger (Paizo's spell list)
This spell is over rated. I like it, but I don't use it that much. If I do use it then I use it against casters. :)
Always kill the casters first.Players finally locate what's hitting them. Roll initiative. Wizard wins.
--I followed with chain lightning centered on the Fighter (Paizo's spell list)
You should have buffed the other NPC's or debuffed the party depending on what other NPC's you had.
-Then the Fighter got inside (squeezed in the window) and the Wizard activated his staff for a fire wall. (in paizo's character sheet)
Wall of Stone would have been better or Wall of Ice.
The fighter has the wall centered on him, so he just walks forward (takes no damage) and knocks the wizard to 20 hp. So, the wizard steps 5 ft back and casts his escape spell.I was told that I "picked the WORST targets for your spells. [I should have] Chain Lightning the Witch. Disintegrate the Druid. Force Cage the Fighter. Target our worst saves, not our strongest." and that the Wizard who they were fighting should have had a potion of greater invisibility and he should have prepared more area of effect spells :(
As for targeting certain saves some think that is metagaming, but if your group is ok with it then druids have good fort saves so that is a bad idea. Disintegrate on the party wizard is a better idea. I don't really bother with AoE damage spells that much unless I am going to use the Dazing spell metamagic feat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------I read the adventure when I first get it, and I read it again the night before the game. If you are short on prep time then come to the boards and see if you can get help here.
===I don't know what to do any more. I can't challenge the party AT ALL with CR-appropriate encounters, and when I challenge them, I am criticized for being unfair or incompetent. CR14 v. only 4 of them was a bit too much- but STORYWISE it was very appropriate given that the Fort had an entire day to prepare for an ambush- I actually think I went light on them- I could have sent all the hill giants and all the guards-- and that would have been justified since they had approached the city on a flying pegasus and as a polymorphed druid as a sea monster who looked like Lil Hooktongue (!) [Suffice to say, panic levels in the city and liberation points are well in the negatives].
CR appropriate encounters don't work because they have too much stuff. Storywise is a defense if those resources were availible. If they approached like that then I don't think they are really all that good at playing, and I would have sent a lot of people at them.
Essentially, I'm so nervous that I'm unhappy to run games for my group any more. I don't have time or the interest in the rules to do things right enough regarding the rules. But I love the story and I'm really looking forward to finishing it.My group has given me the best advice they can; I've taken what I can. And I'm just very sad. Can a GM like myself, who values a deep and involved story and who doesn't have the inclination to memorize rules or the time to study the rules extensively before every session, run a game on the fly while satisfying players that he is doing his absolute best to be fair? *sigh*. I really just play the game to try to relax and I cannot relax. It's frustrating.
Maybe you should play for a while first. That is the best way to learn the rules. You don't have to know all the rules, but basic rules should be known. You should also know where to look to find the rules you need such as magic or combat chapter. Other than that not GM'ing for your group might be the way to go as a last resort if you really don't want to learn the rules. If you don't learn the rules and tactics of the game they will never be happy when you GM.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------Games like Exalted are more story oriented. The GM is a storyteller in those games.
PF is a rules heavy system, and tactics are very important. The next time you GM cut back on the point buy, and I would ask questions in the advice area for tactics.
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ouch. I have a similar problem with the guy GMing for our group. it is understood that we would use the rules as written. But our GM seems to not want to learn those rules. he is from 3.5 and tries to use old rules or just makes them up. This week he had the bad guy cast a spell and than cast a quicken MM and ready it to hit the next person to cast. I want to scream at times, or am close to finding a new game. My thoughts are that if he dosnt want to use the rules the rest of us are using than why am I playing. we are into book 5 by the way.
Your tactics will get better as you learn more about the game. I have run almost 40 PFS games and I can tell you there are alot of things I would have done differant if run with what I know now.As GM's we will make terrible mistakes, like forgetting BBEG has improved invis at will. dont beat yourself up on this, it happens. Now I would say just learn from his but it sounds like you dont want to put in the time. Im not saying this to be mean, but stating this with belief it's helpful. Pathfinder is a game of lots of rules, and you have to be willing to invest the time to learn them. If you arent willing to than it might be a good Idea to try a new game. I have a friend that did this. He wasnt willing to invest in all the new books that came out, so he went with Savage Worlds which has alot simpler rules.
I have played with people who play Big story games. These have little rules and awards for in game role-playing. This want for me. I like my rules. I like knowing that I can build a character inwhich A=A,B=B ect...
Not saying that you cant roleplay with pathfinder cause I do alot. But I hate when the rules are different every session. sorry if this didnt help and I just rambled on too much for you.
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Hello!
I was harshly criticized by my playing group for my Fort Drelev encounter. I know that there is much I could do to improve.
A.
What I wonder though is if my situation is unique here in that I have very knowledgeable players and/or my skills as a rules-knowing GM are very terrible (which exacerbates the issue-still, I already know that my players know the game far better than I do). Essentially, I want to vent a little and to try to figure out how typical my situation is?I feel bad about this encounter at Drelev's because I walked away from the session feeling great! For the first time since they hit level 4 I'd been able to actually CHALLENGE the party! And I did it with an interesting battle- multiple levels of battle (ground, 30 foot staircase, inside a tower, on the battlements), three types of enemies (wizard, archers, hill giants) Re. Challenge: (e.g. 2 players never take damage ever in any session, but in this one, I'd finally been able to present them a little bit of a threat).
But then I was criticized for being too tough by some and for being incompetent by others (They thought I should have TPKed them and must have been fudging dice, or that I must have just been incompetent at preparing encounters).
They have given me a lot of good things to think about to improve. I accept the fact that I constantly let down my group because I don't know the rules well enough :(, but it's frustrating. I really HATE memorizing rules. I play the game because I like the stories. Rules are work, and they are unclear. :(. I do what I can to keep the rules straight though for my players because I know they like them. But the game has become very, very stressful for me-I can sense disapproval from the players with every encounter I make for them.
I had so much fun during this session because I wasn't arguing about the rules with anyone, because I thought I was actually playing the encounter properly, and then I received several page-long email complaints. A few months back I had to take a...
Glass, first of all your players aren't being constructive by telling you that you are horrible. It may take time to learn all the rules and have them show you what page it's on etc. It will slow the game though if you do this but at least everyone is on the 'same page' lol. It's not fair too just complain as pcs it isn't very easy to be a great GM. It is a lot easier being a player. All you have to do is just know what feats allow you to do what you want to do, or spells. It does sound like they absolutely could have been tpked. Roll all rolls in front of everyone. Let the dice be and if they die they die. My group is like this they want to earn absolutely everything if I cheat them by fudging it lessens their accomplishment. Just keep reading up on the rules and ask them for help. My players still teach me things from time to time. You can't know everything.
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First, Pathfinder is no build for groups with people of different levels. Hoe is that you have ended with 2 level 8 characters and 4 level 7?
Second, your group Average party level is around:
4*7+2*8= 7.33
plus
+1 because they are 6
+1 or even +2 thanks to the high point buy
+1 for the NPC in the group (pegasus included), especially if they haven't paid them with the leadership feat (note that the high point buy increase the effect of leadership as non charisma based classes will still get a high charisma and leadership score. What point buy for the NPC? if they too are on a 32 point buy itis really bad)
All the above give us a APL of 10-11, I would call it 11. So a CR 14 encounter is a epic battle but perfectly in range for them.
Second it seem that there is a big disparity on how the character are created and managed. so some character is noticeably less strong that others. Having at least one of the strong players (the fighter9 being level 8 while 4 other players are level 7 will only compound the difference (and I am willing to bet that the other level 8 player si the ranger).
Third, I get the impression that your players are playing on the limits of your knowledge of the rules.
"And the Wizard was located in a tower 30 feet up, shooting out a small near-murder-hole window that gave him 3/4 cover."
"-Then the Fighter got inside (squeezed in the window) and the Wizard activated his staff for a fire wall. (in paizo's character sheet)"
If I get this two piece of text right:
- the fighter, probably in heavy armour), in one round: a) activated the flight property of his armour (standard action); b) flew 30' upward and probably something sideways (moving more than his allowance for a guy in heavy armor) [Fly: The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load.) It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.] and c) then squeezed through a near murder hole window (DC 30 escape artist check that RAW "takes at least 1 minute". [I would allow it as a 1 full round action in this situation])
Fourth: it should have used a greater invisibility potion: small problem, retrieving a potion is a move action and drinking one a standard action, the wizard would have been invisible, but at 5' from the fighter and in a know location. Mirror image from a scroll or memorized would have worked better as a defensive spell. Dimension door (from a scroll or as a memorized spell) way better as an escape plan.
The simple fact that they have suggested a improved invisibility potion, something that was introduced in the game with the summoner spell list give me a bad feeling, as the summoner spell list is broken when you sue it to produce potions or wands (remember, potions are limited to level 3 non personal, targeted, spells and wands to level 4).
On a side note, check what potions they have. If you are hazy on the rules it is possible that you have let them purchase/make potions of personal spells. That can be very problematic, as that kind of spell is not meant to be available to other classes unless they are using UMD on wands or scrolls to cast them.
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"--I opened with Force Cage on the Druid- who the wizard figured
probably had been the big monster in the sea, so he didn't want him
changing forms. (This was a 6-player group spell list)
Surprise Round.
--I followed with disintegrate on the Ranger (Paizo's spell list)"
Here you erred: there is no "free spell from ambush + spell in the surprise round". The wizard has the possibility to cast a spell in the surprise round (plus a quickened spell), with the targets getting a perception check to notice the ambush, not 2.
A brief note on point-buy values: If your group used the 3.5 point buy chart instead of the PF point buy chart, then 32 isn't so bad (32 on the 3.5 chart is about equivalent to 20 on the PF chart). If you used the PF chart, then 32 is very high.
Anyway, if your players are so unhappy about your DM'ing (for whatever reason) that they send you page-long complaint emails after each session, and you are unhappy because they're unhappy, I would strongly consider taking a break from DM'ing for a while.
Perhaps you should ask one of your players to be the DM for a few sessions, and be a player in that game? It might help you learn some of the rules in an easier way (as you'd be focusing on a single character). It might also give you some insight into which kinds of encounters your players prefer.
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I'll be frank: Your players have piss-poor attitudes and are acting extremely immature. If I had a player at one of my tables harangue me like that, they would be ejected immediately. Remind them of rule zero: the GM is ALWAYS right when he wishes to be. If they complain, eject them for a session. If they whine about that, kick 'em out. My kingmaker group started with six players and is down to five because of one player's disruptive behavior.
There is a huge difference between bringing up perceived issues with the GM for a polite discussion, and browbeating you alternately for making it "too tough" and "playing incompetently".
Pathfinder is a very complex game, and rules mastery takes years and years of playing to develop, complicated by D&D 3.X baggage that may or may not have been ported over. No GM should be expected to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules. At my table, my players constantly correct me on things, but they do it politely and are usually right. I frequently correct them on things as well. It is important to remember that the GM/player relationship should not be adversarial. This isn't a game with two sides where you play to win. You play to have fun and tell a story.
What I see from your situation is that your players are taking advantage of your limited knowledge of the rules to build horrendously overpowered characters and cheat, then piss and moan about the difficulty of encounters not being right. Well of course the difficulty isn't right! As others have said, the AP assumes four PCs with 15 point buy scores. Throw a 32(!) PB party in there with bullcrap flying horses and non-existent abilities and they expect the power level of their opponents to be perfect? Please!
Additionally, the Kingmaker AP is a sandbox adventure. This means the players aren't railroaded from one encounter to another, carefully designed to be challenging but not impossible. It means "Here is a world, go explore". Here there be dragons - your safety is not guaranteed. Look at the random encounter tables - there's a very real possibility of level one characters encountering a group of FIVE CR 5 TROLLS. There's a reason nobody's been able to tame these lands. They're fraggin' dangerous! If the PCs dive straight at an encounter too tough for them, mess them up badly and TPK if that's what the dice say. In my game, one of the two character deaths was from messing with an encounter that was clearly too tough.
As an aside: there is no way to become immune to arrows. The deflect arrow feat allows you to deflect ONE ranged attack per round, requires you to have a free hand, and has improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite. Your fighter is blatantly cheating and should be called out on it. I would HIGHLY recommend that you ask each player to give you a copy of their character sheet. Post their characters here. We'll beat them back into the shape they should be in.
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I would HIGHLY recommend that you ask each player to give you a copy of their character sheet. Post their characters here. We'll beat them back into the shape they should be in.
This would be a good starting point. The best way to learn the rules is to know how your PCs work.
I'm also curious as to your experience level with D&D in general and 3.5/Pathfinder specifically. How long have you been a DM for such games? Do you play as well? Did you play before you were a DM, and for how long?
I didn't get that your players are abusive, they just have certain expectations and it seems they are at least trying to let you know when you aren't meeting them. It's good to have that level of openness, as long as it isn't whining or abusive.
Finally (and this was mentioned above) you need to make a few things clear for your players:
Campaign Balance
1) Kingmaker has level-appropriate encounters, but also ones way below or above. It's a dynamic environment. The party will have to be prepared for the occasional retreat, or pre-encounter research (the rumor tables in each book are handy for warning off players from certain areas). If they elect to charge in with half the party, the consequences may be dire (and it sounds like they were expecting it once the wizard whipped off a 7th-level spell). Don't be afraid to kill some characters, it sounds like some of them expect it on occasion.
Table Flow and Feedback
2) If you make a ruling at the table, it stands - no interrupting the game for rules discussions unless you ask for clarification (and you should do this minimally). After the game, ask your players for feedback regarding any rules issues in a simple objective point form (ie. page number, relevant rule, summary of rule). Ask them politely to limit feedback to 2 or 3 rules so you have time to adjust.
Spell Tactics
3) Your players do have a point about your tactics, but running casters is the hardest combat element of D&D. These boards can provide loads of advice if you post up a "help with this NPC" thread.
What They Want
4) They also seem to enjoy powergaming (but you may want to ask them this point-blank). They view each encounter as a puzzle, with the best solution being the fastest, surest victory. They also seem to like the spotlight, showing off their characters abilities. Let them do so, don' take it personally when they trash your monsters, it's what they want. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a challenge. Consider increasing the ability scores of all important NPCs in the AP, and change up some of the monsters.
Study
5) Most importantly: STUDY. It's not what you want to hear, but you need to put the time in. It will save you time in the long run. Read the core rules in your downtime. Look through the index for things you do not recognize, and read from start to finish as well. It's not about memorizing the various bonuses and penalties - you can look those up if critical, but it's usually +2/-2. It's about knowing the fundamentals (action types, class features, spells). I've been DMing 3rd Edition since 2000, and I still have to look up some of the conditional effects!
I'll be frank: Your players have piss-poor attitudes and are acting extremely immature. If I had a player at one of my tables harangue me like that, they would be ejected immediately. Remind them of rule zero: the GM is ALWAYS right when he wishes to be. If they complain, eject them for a session. If they whine about that, kick 'em out. My kingmaker group started with six players and is down to five because of one player's disruptive behavior.
The GM is not always right. With that said his players do need better attitudes. They also need to agree on what type of game they need to play. I would sit them down and make them make a decision.
At my table, my players constantly correct me on things, but they do it politely and are usually right. I frequently correct them on things as well. It is important to remember that the GM/player relationship should not be adversarial. This isn't a game with two sides where you play to win.
This gets a +1. Being a jerk is not cool.
Here there be dragons - your safety is not guaranteed.
For KM this is very important. Unlike most adventures you might run into something well beyond your APL if you go to the wrong place. I warned my players about that up front. KM due to its sandbox nature also requires more prep time than most AP's.
I would HIGHLY recommend that you ask each player to give you a copy of their character sheet. Post their characters here. We'll beat them back into the shape they should be in.
This 1000 times.
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I'll be frank: Your players have piss-poor attitudes and are acting extremely immature. If I had a player at one of my tables harangue me like that, they would be ejected immediately. Remind them of rule zero: the GM is ALWAYS right when he wishes to be. If they complain, eject them for a session. If they whine about that, kick 'em out. My kingmaker group started with six players and is down to five because of one player's disruptive behavior.The GM is not always right. With that said his players do need better attitudes. They also need to agree on what type of game they need to play. I would sit them down and make them make a decision.
At my table, my players constantly correct me on things, but they do it politely and are usually right. I frequently correct them on things as well. It is important to remember that the GM/player relationship should not be adversarial. This isn't a game with two sides where you play to win.This gets a +1. Being a jerk is not cool.
Here there be dragons - your safety is not guaranteed.For KM this is very important. Unlike most adventures you might run into something well beyond your APL if you go to the wrong place. I warned my players about that up front. KM due to its sandbox nature also requires more prep time than most AP's.
I would HIGHLY recommend that you ask each player to give you a copy of their character sheet. Post their characters here. We'll beat them back into the shape they should be in.This 1000 times.
+1
Thank you for all the responses.
jjaamm-
I understand your predicament, it sounds very similar to my players' reactions to how I struggle to interpret the rules.
>>"Now I would say just learn from his but it sounds like you dont want to put in the time. Im not saying this to be mean, but stating this with belief it's helpful. Pathfinder is a game of lots of rules, and you have to be willing to invest the time to learn them. If you arent willing to than it might be a good Idea to try a new game."
I agree, and it's frustrating, but it is true. Some people like rules; I like rules in real life- I spend all day reading documents and analyzing them in-depth and making recommendations... I've worked 60-80 hours weeks doing just that for the last 4 months. But I'd like to relax a little and do something different from my work when I'm playing a game.
I actually was trying to use Paizo's adventure paths so that I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time learning rules- I could just plug and play and add some side quest adventures to fill in story... Sadly, the Paizo rules seem to be adding more complications and rules issues than I expected.
In the final spoiler box I noted that I tried Call of Cthulu- a rules lite game... and sadly, my group started buying the books and memorizing the rules- making it very difficult to play even that game without arguments, or at minimum hurt feelings on the part of the players since they don't think I'm being consistent from one CoC game to another...they clearly remember every nuance of how I make rulings... I think I'm consistent *within* the game at least, though.
Once again, thanks!
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Diego-
First, Pathfinder is no build for groups with people of different levels. Hoe is that you have ended with 2 level 8 characters and 4 level 7?
Different people came on different days to play and some people did side quests, so they are slightly higher level for a session or two-then things balance out. The level 4 person is a 'secondary' character that was an experiment for Kingmaker- essentially players all started with 2 PCs at the beginning and then PCs died off... except for the secondary of the one player who knows absolutely all the rules... his secondary PC and another backup I allowed him to have since I knew he could manage it and the party wanted a crafting bot, lived.
>>Second, your group Average party level is around:
plus
+1 because they are 6
+1 or even +2 thanks to the high point buy
+1 for the NPC in the group (pegasus included), especially if they haven't paid them with the leadership feat (note that the high point buy increase the effect of leadership as non charisma based classes will still get a high charisma and leadership score. What point buy for the NPC? if they too are on a 32 point buy itis really bad)"
"All the above give us a APL of 10-11, I would call it 11. So a CR 14 encounter is a epic battle but perfectly in range for them."
That is REALLY useful to have! :) It is useful both for my calculations and for any future discussions...although I suspect I'll get some pushback on the Pegasus being = to 1 CR.
Thank you very much!
Extra information:
-Immediately after Book 3; The NPC has gone off to adventure elsewhere. She was an experiment. If you're familiar with the old RPG superstar competitions, she was Sharina Legendsinger and she is supposed to be a somewhat accidental enemy for the party; she did manage to get them into some trouble due to her brashness, but her benefit- the +1 singing bonus, generally helped them more overall.
>>Second it seem that there is a big disparity on how the character are created and managed. so some character is noticeably less strong that others. Having at least one of the strong players (the fighter9 being level 8 while 4 other players are level 7 will only compound the difference (and I am willing to bet that the other level 8 player si the ranger).
You are right on those assumptions. It's a good point that I should be wary of. In contrast, the weakest players are the two newbies to DnD; they are also the lowest level.
>>Third, I get the impression that your players are playing on the limits of your knowledge of the rules.
Yes.
>>"If I get this two piece of text right:
- the fighter, probably in heavy armour), in one round: a) activated the flight property of his armour (standard action); b) flew 30' upward and probably something sideways (moving more than his allowance for a guy in heavy armor) [Fly: The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load.) It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.] and c) then squeezed through a near murder hole window (DC 30 escape artist check that RAW "takes at least 1 minute". [I would allow it as a 1 full round action in this situation])"
In one round he activated the armor and flew up and hid on the side of the wall.
In round two he squeezed. Yes, in full plate armor. [Red Dragonhide Full Plate +3]
So it seems he should have only been able to fly 20 feet. So he should have only gotten 20 feet in one round and then move action+full round action to squeeze through the wall? Or would he need to wait one more round to do the full round action to squeeze? From what I understand you can move + take a full round attack action. So it seems legal.
>>Fourth: it should have used a greater invisibility potion: small problem, retrieving a potion is a move action and drinking one a standard action, the wizard would have been invisible, but at 5' from the fighter and in a know location. Mirror image from a scroll or memorized would have worked better as a defensive spell. Dimension door (from a scroll or as a memorized spell) way better as an escape plan.
I think the argument was invisibility before the battle started since he knew it would be an ambush. You make a good point though that I shouldn't use invisibility in the future in an enclosed space. I will endeavor to not make that mistake.
On a side note, check what potions they have. If you are hazy on the rules it is possible that you have let them purchase/make potions of personal spells. That can be very problematic, as that kind of spell is not meant to be available to other classes unless they are using UMD on wands or scrolls to cast them.
Ok. I can watch that. I don't hear them talk of drinking potions too much during the game, but one surviving secondary character is a potion-maker.
Re: Old Drake
>>There also seem to be some other fragments of 3.5 rules remaining, that just unbalance the game. What material are you allowing the players to use?
I allow any 3.5 or Paizo product, although I have limits. There used to be more limits, but they keep 'debating' out more laxity. They ask me to justify how limits are different instead of just arbitrary matters of taste. One thing I did manage to do was to ban Summoners.
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Thank you for the note about 15 pb v. 32 pb. I knew that they were higher PB than the suggested AP PB and that would affect the game, but maybe I did not communicate that well enough to them, especially regarding the adjustments I needed to make.
I tried to reverse-engineer what point buy I must have given... I think it may have been 23 or 25? instead of 32? I know that for 3.5 games we used 32 or 28... Looking at the party's wizard a 25 is suggestive, but the others seem to have higher stats...
The players all received bonus feats (2) of the regional feats at the start of kingmaker and instead of cash, I gave them an ability score boost at level 8, so ability scores should be higher by the amount of +2 (human), +2 (level 4 and 8 boosts), and +1 (my bonus god's blessing boost)
Some characters leveled up after the most recent session:
Note *Essentially the two most powerful are the Ranger and the Fighter. I'm fairly sure they constructed the characters legitimately. Everyone else, I think I can balance around. I've been too tough on the witch (who was designed around mind control and suffered through all vermin and undead in Book 3); the witch and oracle are new to DnD. The Druid and the Wizard are easy-going and for RP reasons choose sub-optimal choices that are often hilarious and advance the story.
The level 9 ranger is:
STR 18 HP 86
DEX 18 AC 28
CON 14 CMD 29
INT 10 FORT 11
WIS 14 REF 13
CHA 10 WILL 8
Skills ..., Perception +23, Ride +9, Stealth +15, Survival +14
, Swim +7
+2 thundering darkwood composite longbow +14/+14/+9 (1d8+6/19-20x3)
SQ favored terrain (forest +2, mountains +4), hunter’s bond (animal companion-a large wolf),
swift tracker, track +4, wild empathy +8, woodland stride
Feats:
Quick Draw, Power Attack, Endurance, Rapid Shot, Cleave, Deadly Aim,
Local Beacon, Manyshot, Boon Companion, Critical Focus
+2 fey bane bastard sword
+1 composite longbow (Str rating +4)
ring of protection +2
goggles with See Invisibility 1/day
gloves with True Strike at will
shirt with continuous Shield
belt with +2 Dex, +1 Con
Boots of Speed
Cloak of Resistance +2
+2 mithral breastplate (From a side quest to the land of the dwarves-I held off on allowing mithral for a long time; eventually I relented (as with the Pegasus) and allowed it as part of a side quest to open up a trade route :). It was a fun session. 6 bearded devils v. one archer in a cave with twisty corners. He barely made it out alive and he did have fun.)
The Level 9 witch is:
STR 8, HP 61
DEX 16, AC 16
CON 12, CMD 15
INT 23, FORT 5
WIS 14, REF 6
CHA 12, WILL 8
Hexes
Cackle -
Cauldron -
Charm
Disguise
Evil Eye
Misfortune
Spells Prepared
0 (4/day; DC 16) - detect magic, detect poison, read magic, stabilize
1 (6/day; DC 17) - beguiling gift, comprehend languages, mount, ray of enfeeblement(x3)
2 (6/day; DC 18) - alter self, detect thoughts, vomit swarm(x2)
3 (4/day; DC 19) - bestow curse, fly, stinking cloud
4 (3/day; DC 20) - black tentacles, phantasmal killer, [empty slot]
5 (2/day; DC 21) - baleful polymorph, feeblemind
*I am trying to learn to present more opportunities for the witch to shine. The witch had very little to do in book 3 vs. Undead and Vermin. I also didn't understand the witch or oracle class until recently (I own the APG, though).
Level 8 Wizard
STR 10, HP 51 (+4)
DEX 14, AC 19
CON 12, CMD 16
INT 23, FORT 7
WIS 10, REF 8
CHA 10, WILL 9 (10 vs. mind)
3 – Hold Person (1), Fireball (3), Fly (1), Invis. Sphere, Deep Slumber, Bestow Curse, Dispell Magic, Displacement, Suggestion, Tongues, Vampiric Touch,
4 – Greater Invis. (1), Phantasmal Killer (2), Black Tentacles (1), Dimension Door (1), Animate Dead, Fire Shield, Remove Curse, Bestow Curse
He also has some zombie minions. The party is upset with him about this and they now consider him Chaotic Evil as a result of both this and as a result of putting the OCULUS OF ABBADON in his eye. His official alignment is True Neutral... As a GM my opinion is that he is Neutral Evil at best as a result of certain other actions he has taken. Which is fine, it's noted here for amusement's sake. :D It may lead to intraparty warfare and I've already discussed this with him- he understands the consequences (I think).
His other eye is: Eye of Infravision: Darkvision 120 feet, Detect living (warm blooded) 60 feet.
He looks like a monster... I believe one of his arms also glows.
1 Fast Stygira Zombie (location unknown)
9 HD +9hp (45 hp)
+3 fort, +3 Reflex, +6 Will
+7 BAB (+4 from strength) (+11 total)
AC: 22, Touch 14, Flat Footed 18 (+4 Dex, + 6 Natural Armor, +2 zombie natural armor bonus)
*1 Great Cyclops (Fast Zombie)
17 HD (+4 bonus HD) +9hp (93 hp)
+7 Fort, +7 Reflex, +12 Will
+12 BAB (+14 from strength 38), Total +26
AC: 28, Touch 12, Flat Footed 26(+1 armor, +2 Dex, +13 Natural Armor, +4 Zombie Bonus, -2 Size)
Initiative: +2
38 STR, 15 Dex, 0 Con, 0 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha
CMB: +29, CMD: 43 (10 + 29 BAB and Strength + 2 Dex +2 Size)
Level 8 Oracle (Fire)
STR 8, -1 HP 55
DEX 15, 2 AC 19
CON 12, 1 INIT 2
INT 12, 1 FORT 4
WIS 10, 0 REF 5
CHA 22, 6 WILL 7
CMD 12
Leadership Score – (lv + cha + feat + stronghold) 8 + 5 + 1 + 2 = 16
The Oracle doesn't bring them along very often though.
Gear: +2 Headband of Alluring Charisma (4000 gp)
+1 Cloak of Resistance (1000 gp)
+1 Longbow (2375 gp)
+1 Breastplate, agile (1550 gp)
Pearl of Power (level 2) (4000 gp)
Mystery: Flame.
1 – Cinder Dance:
3 – Molten Skin:
7 – Wings of Fire:
Spells:
2 – cure moderate wounds , grace , lesser restoration , levitate , minor image, resist energy , summon monster 2
3 – cure serious wounds , fireball , magic circle against alignment , stone shape
4 – cure critical wounds , summon monster IV , wall of fire
I don't have the Level 9 Druid's stats right now.
I don't have the Level 9 fighter's stats (I will ask), but I do have his items.
Here are some of his stats at level 8
HP: 72
AC: 33
Initiative: +2
FORT 7
REF 7
WILL 7
Here's the Justification for the AC. It seems correct.
Red Dragonhide Full Plate +3 +12 Armor
Heavy Mithral Shield +2 +6 Shield
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 +2 Natural
Ring of Protection +1 +1 Deflection --
Cloak of Resistance +3 -- Enhancement +3 Saves
Ring of Featherfall -- Other Featherfall
Weapons
Keen Lance +1 +14/+9 1d8+5 19-20/x3 x3 on Charge.
Silversheen Warhammer +1 +13/+8 1d8+5 x3 All +1/+1 when mounted.
Feats:
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack When charging, move past target w/o provoking AoO
Spirited Charge x2 (x3 w/ Lance) damage when mounted and charging
Weapon Focus (Lance) +1 Attack with specific weapon
Power Attack -3/+6 Attack/Damage. -1/+2 per 4 beyond +4
Improved Bullrush +2 CMB Bullrush, +2 CMD v. Bullrush
Skill Focus (Handle Animal) +3 Bonus to Skill. +6 at 10 Ranks.
Shield Focus (Heavy) +1 Shield AC
Missile Shield Negate Ranged hit 1/round
Shield Focus, Greater (Heavy) +1 Shield AC
you could get one of the players to act as a co-DM. You'd handle the roleplaying, and he'd handle combat and maybe certain NPCs outside of combat. It's not easy to coordinate, but it'd allow you to concentrate on making the story fun and let one of your experts make combat fun and challenging.
That's a really interesting idea. I might discuss that with one of the players, although I think they like playing...but it IS worth a shot.
-->>immunity to arrows is almost impossible in Pathfinder...
That's what I thought. I thought the claim was really odd.
But here's where it came from, the feat:
"Missile Shield Negate Ranged hit 1/round"
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Re: Diego
Here you erred: there is no "free spell from ambush + spell in the surprise round". The wizard has the possibility to cast a spell in the surprise round (plus a quickened spell), with the targets getting a perception check to notice the ambush, not 2.
Ah thank you. I was unfair about that. I'll try to remember that!
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Are
I would strongly consider taking a break from DM'ing for a while.
Perhaps you should ask one of your players to be the DM for a few sessions, and be a player in that game? It might help you learn some of the rules in an easier way (as you'd be focusing on a single character). It might also give you some insight into which kinds of encounters your players prefer.
Thank you. That is a good idea. And it's what I did. I last GMed in January. I felt so disheartened (and I lacked time... but if I didn't have to be stressed about memorizing rules, I could have run several games even though I was busy-e.g. the more they want me to prepare for sessions, the less sessions I can run.) that I didn't GM again until a few days ago. I played in 3 of the players' games, one a Cthulhu game, one a 4E campaign that had its closing adventure (because few in the group enjoy 4E), and another a homebrew system game.
Red Ramage
Additionally, the Kingmaker AP is a sandbox adventure. This means the players aren't railroaded from one encounter to another, carefully designed to be challenging but not impossible.
I agree. I pointed that out... I think I need to be more forceful on that and to specify that is one thing I consider take it or leave it.
Jal Dorak
I'm also curious as to your experience level with D&D in general and 3.5/Pathfinder specifically. How long have you been a DM for such games? Do you play as well? Did you play before you were a DM, and for how long?
I've played DnD since 2E; I've played the games for over 13/14 years and I've DMed as long as 3E has been out. I started DMing even before I had any 3.0 books...I just approximated what seemed fair. I've had all the 3.5 books since 2003 and I probably have about 25-50 DnD 3.0/3.5 books, not counting a large pile of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.
>>"I didn't get that your players are abusive, they just have certain expectations and it seems they are at least trying to let you know when you aren't meeting them."
That's how I see it.
e.g. the players do have some right to be frustrated that I haven't learned the rules very well. Since 2010 I've probably DMed about 30 sessions.
I usually DM because I am a very poor player. I build extremely sub optimal characters and I generally sit around and do nothing effective all game because other DMs build encounters to challenge the other, better built players. More recently I started asking my friends to design my characters- I've actually had somewhat effective PCs since that started happening. My mistake was designing around RP rather than paying attention to rules.
My players have rightly commented that I don't seem to even understand the basic design of the game itself based on design and game choices that I make. I put it down to that YES I have read every book I own, but I didn't study them like I study things for work or school. What I need to do there is to take copious notes. Just reading something doesn't teach me, nor does hearing something--I won't remember it, writing it down does. I realized that I should apply my learning for work/school skills to learning for game playing about 8 months ago and my rules knowledge did improve slightly- I just didn't have time or the inclination to write out everything in the rulebooks-I did try though and I like to think I improved... there are just so many tetchy rules and things that aren't written very clearly...Like the charging in a straight line rule...or charging while flying rules (I think I asked about those on the boards here with a different name identity and that was cleared up).
I learned, however. In a future game I was a rogue who focused on thrown weapons... apparently though that's not playing to the rogue's strength.
So then I made a fighter/rogue and dumped CON... Poor idea. I spent most of the games in negative HP.
>>"Don't be afraid to kill some characters, it sounds like some of them expect it on occasion."
Thank you. That is good advice. For Kingmaker, in my first time in 12 years GMing, I finally killed a character. I had warned everyone playing to create 2-3 characters at the start of the game since I would kill characters off. I started holding back when one player quit in part because I killed his favorite character (he does have a monument though). All the kills were from open rolls... but odd rolls. I rolled 3 D20s at the first encounter at Oleg's to kill one player. Another died to a werewolf on 2 D20s, another died on... guess again- 2 D20s. So since Book 2 ended, I tried not to kill anyone and switched to rolling secretly- in part b/c of the killing characters issue and in part because every time I rolled the players were doing math in their heads and challenging how I had converted monsters. e.g. "there's NO WAY that they can have a Base attack bonus that way. Monsters of CR 8 cannot have a +X attack bonus." As a group we discussed that problem and came up with 2 solutions. 1. I learn how to convert monsters (I looked at some programs and determined that it would take too long- e.g. I wouldn't have time to prepare the story if I did that. OR 2. I get slightly better at creating fair encounters and hide the dice to avoid agitating them. I went with 2.
>>"4) They also seem to enjoy powergaming (but you may want to ask them this point-blank). They view each encounter as a puzzle, with the best solution being the fastest, surest victory. They also seem to like the spotlight, showing off their characters abilities. Let them do so, don' take it personally when they trash your monsters, it's what they want. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a challenge. Consider increasing the ability scores of all important NPCs in the AP, and change up some of the monsters."
Yes. They've said it's like a puzzle and is a game to be won. :D. I'm fine if the fights are several rounds (of more than just hammering at HP-packs); it's a little concerning though when the players complain that a fight is too easy, followed by them starting to acting like they're epic and untouchable. No need to solve that issue though :D It'll be solved when I incorporate your and others' solutions to the other issues.
Thank you very much for the other comments-told concisely!
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Wraithstrike
The best GM's make the rule and stories work together. It seems you are more of a narrative GM. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does not work for everyone. Some people like myself enjoy consistency.
Yes. I understand that very well.
How did the fighter get an AC of 33? Monty haul does not just refer to magic items. High PB and allowing the players to get mostly anything they want is also a factor.
Crafting I think. I put a GP limit on the expense of any single item they can buy and 75% of that limit is how high they can craft a single item. I think he crafted the +3 armor at a cost of 9000GP, right on the edge of the crafting limit.
I did NOT allow the party to sell magic items through the town menu, because I knew that was broken, but I allowed them to take advantage of crafting.
There are 3 characters who can craft. All three of them are run by the really good player (who is the only player who has 3 characters any more due to deaths-two other characters have secondaries but one never uses his crafter and the other is the kingdom's ruler...he just rules). His main PC Level 9 can craft (fighter); his secondary Level 5 can craft (comes on some adventures when only 4 Players show up); and his tertiary level 4 can craft (never comes on adventures).
If he wants to die by an appropriate encounter I am sure the posters on the forum can make it happen. I will be glad to help. :)
That is an intriguing offer... maybe I'll take you up on it- in the Barbarian cairn perhaps?
Wall of Stone would have been better or Wall of Ice.
Ah, thank you!
Games like Exalted are more story oriented. The GM is a storyteller in those games.
Thanks! To recap: You've given me some talking points for the characters about appropriate levels, you've given me some possible solutions (add a Combat/monster designer DM; or of course, study better :(; or do something else (don't be a GM); or lay down the law perhaps losing a player/friend; or somehow get them to respect me and my rulings-I think they wouldn't challenge me at the table if they'd respect my authority and knowledge of the rules wouldn't lead to them being unfairly hurt)
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I have two pieces of advice for you:
1) Don't take crap from your players. Don't put up with disrespect. If they have the rules all memorized, maybe ask one of them to step up and GM. If you LIKE being the GM, then just don't put up with it.
2) Play by the rules. You should really know the rules (inside and out) before you begin to "break" them. I see so many things you're doing here that are outside normal gameplay and just making your job harder. Things like:
* 32 point buy.
* Giving bonus feats beyond what they should be getting by the rules.
* Allowing them to play multiple characters. The AP assumes a party of 4. You have more players than that. Each should be playing one character. Period. Also, realize you have more players than you need. Maybe you should get rid of some dead weight (such as the disrespectful players). See my first piece of advice above. Also, with such a large party, they don't need any party NPC's to help. Either kill off those NPC's, or have them suddenly find something better to do with their time.
* Giving out overpowered mounts/companions. As someone else said, kill off that pegasus.
The problem is not with your knowledge (or lack of) the rules. The problem is your players' attitudes. You need to lay down the law.
We've all made the mistake of being too nice to the players as a new DM. Oftentimes they're your friends and you want them to like you. But doing "favors" for the players like handing out feats, ability enhancements, higher point buys, magic items, companions, etc. tends to have a snowball effect. If it were me I'd have them all remake their characters by the book. Explain that you're a new GM and you made a mistake giving them all that extra stuff. If they really care about having an enjoyable experience, they'll understand.
I really, really recommend you play "by the book" until you have really mastered the system. Every rule exists for a reason. There's a reason characters have the number of feats and ability points they do. Changing things like that when you don't know the rules inside and out is like altering a recipe when you've never cooked before. Your odds of a favorable result are not good.
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I have two pieces of advice for you:
1) Don't take crap from your players. Don't put up with disrespect. If they have the rules all memorized, maybe ask one of them to step up and GM. If you LIKE being the GM, then just don't put up with it.
2) Play by the rules. You should really know the rules (inside and out) before you begin to "break" them. I see so many things you're doing here that are outside normal gameplay and just making your job harder. Things like:
* 32 point buy.
* Giving bonus feats beyond what they should be getting by the rules.
* Allowing them to play multiple characters. The AP assumes a party of 4. You have more players than that. Each should be playing one character. Period. Also, realize you have more players than you need. Maybe you should get rid of some dead weight (such as the disrespectful players). See my first piece of advice above.
* Giving out overpowered mounts/companions. As someone else said, kill off that pegasus.The problem is not with your knowledge (or lack of) the rules. The problem is your players' attitudes. You need to lay down the law.
We've all made the mistake of being too nice to the players as a new DM. Oftentimes they're your friends and you want them to like you. But doing "favors" for the players like handing out feats, ability enhancements, higher point buys, magic items, companions, etc. tends to have a snowball effect. If it were me I have them all remake their characters by the book. Explain that you're a new GM and you made a mistake giving them all that extra stuff. If they really care about having an enjoyable experience, they'll understand.
I really, really recommend you play "by the book" until you have really mastered the system. Every rule exists for a reason. There's a reason characters have the number of feats and ability points they do. Changing things like that when you don't know the rules inside and out is like altering a recipe when you've never cooked before. Your odds of a favorable result are not good.
Ditto! The rules are there for a reason but if you like to be a story teller then you do need to be more firm with them. I understand you want them to have fun but you're allowed to have fun also. It's no fun to be disrespected but if you don't take the time to really know the rules they'll pick you apart.
3.5 really can really unbalance Pathfinder. As a new GM I would make it Pathfinder only until your understanding of the system increases. Actually you should probably stick to the CRB until you get better.
As for making characters as a player coming here is a good idea. Yeah people disagree on certain things, but there is a lot of knowledge here. The important thing is to be able to separate what sounds cool in the book from what actually works.
After KM I suggest you go back to playing*. When you make a new character come back to the boards with a build. Tell us what you want to do, and most of us will recommend changes, and explain why we have those ideas.
*Learn the rules. As a player you will have much more free time to do so. I am not saying study the book like you are doing homework, but try to remember at least the rules you need to know about your character. Building different characters is also a good way to learn.
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> That is REALLY useful to have! :) It is useful both for my calculations and for any future discussions...although I suspect I'll get some pushback on the Pegasus being = to 1 CR.
Not the Pegasus alone, but Pegasus plus two level 4 characters.
> So it seems he should have only been able to fly 20 feet. So he should have only gotten 20 feet in one round and then move action+full round action to squeeze through the wall? Or would he need to wait one more round to do the full round action to squeeze? From what I understand you can move + take a full round attack action. So it seems legal.
Aargh, no. You can’t move and take a full attack. You can make a 5’ step, without any terrain hindrance, and make a full attack. If you allow your players a full move and a full attack you are giving melee combatants a huge boost.
How it should have worked by strict rules:
- round 1 (not a surprise round): activate flight (standard action) + move 20' in the air (move action)
- round 2: move another 20' to the window (move action), start squeezing through the small window (full round action initiated this round with a standard action, it end the next round with another standard action).
* Note that the fighter squeezing through the window would have been a wonderful target for the lighting bolt. I would have applied a large malus to his reflex save, but that us bordering houerule territory
- round 3: complete the full round action initiated in round 2 with a second standard action, the fighter is left with a move action.
Depending on the flow of the story I could have allowed him to squeeze in round 2 but that is making it easy for him and being lenient, not something to which he was entitled.
> I allow any 3.5 or Paizo product, although I have limits. There used to be more limits, but they keep 'debating' out more laxity. They ask me to justify how limits are different instead of just arbitrary matters of taste. One thing I did manage to do was to ban Summoners.
If you have problem with the rules this is the worst approach. Pathfinder has a noticeably different balance than 3.5. A feat or class that was acceptable in 3.5 can be overpowered in Pathfinder.
Kingmaker was written at the same time of the Advanced Player guide. You can easily play it with only the core rulebook and I suggest you do so until you learn the rules in that book.
Edit. sorry for the Aargh, but that came from my heart :-)
Aargh, no. You can’t move and take a full attack. You can make a 5’ step, without any terrain hindrance, and make a full attack. If you allow your players a full move and a full attack you are giving melee combatants a huge boost.
I did not even see that.
@ the OP:
That is a rule you learn at the beginning of the game since it encompasses learning about actions. If your player did that he is cheating.
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I really empathize with your situation, and it also makes me appreciate that mine is not nearly as unfortunate as yours sounds. I game with close friends that I have known for years, so suggestions of "kick those rude fools to the curb" always seem a bit drastic for me. That said, over the years, I have become more selective when I put together a group.
I have always, ALWAYS had to struggle for respect at the gaming table, despite my demonstrations of rules mastery. I have become decent with the rules, though I do need to look things up, and I have become quite good at politely putting my foot down ("I'm going with this ruling for now, since we can't find a clarification in the RAW, and we can talk after game if you feel like that wasn't fair. Please remind me. No, please don't look online right now, it's your turn.") in various circumstances. My players have gone on ego trips as they destroy every monster in sight, and have become angry, indignant wrecks over monster/terrain combinations that have been more effective than they thought was appropriate. I try to remind myself that I have argued with GMs in the past when I probably shouldn't have, and how frustrating it feels to become attached to a character and then to see them fail where it seems they should be succeeding.
Table 8-2 on page 183 of the CRB is your friend. I would highly recommend printing it out, or at the very least marking the page. I also have notecards with some of the conditions from Appendix 2 written out on them, for easy reference. For some reason, the rules for grappling just refuse to stay lodged in my brain. :P Anyway, my point is, you don't have to fill a notebook with every last rule you might need for the game, but you can set yourself up for success by shoring up your weak areas of knowledge.
If you have the time or inclination, I would also suggest making characters for fun. Set out with a goal in mind, "I want to make the elfiest elf that ever elfed" or "How would I go about building the greatest healer of all time?" or "What class makes the best diplomat? I'll make three and compare" or whatever, and just see what you can come up with. YMMV, but for me, it is a more fun and relaxed way to learn about how different feats and class abilities work together, than by trying to process every feat all at once.
I used to greatly worry about my players not having a good time. I still see to their needs, and try to create situations where each character has a chance to shine, but I have gotten better at seeing to my needs, too. When I am feeling irritated or depressed about a game, I put off preparing for it, become indifferent about NPCs that were previously dynamic and interesting, and just generally don't bring my A-game.
Side note regarding alignment,
Anyway,if you're still having more fun than not, hang in there! I love Kingmaker, and it would be a shame to end a cool campaign on a sour note. If you and your players can't get on the same page about it, and your stress is completely outweighing your fun, there's nothing wrong with bailing out and trying again another time.
I'm getting a vibe here that some of your players may be trying to push the boundaries (of both the printed rules and those you've imposed) simply to figure out if you'll continue to agree to their requests. If that's the case, simply saying "no" to some of these boundary-pushes (such as a request for a custom item like the gloves and the shirt) might make everyone happier.
I noticed this type of behavior when I was a brand new DM; my players, especially one who was far more experienced than me, made numerous requests to bend the rules over the course of the game, and I kept agreeing to those because he was, after all, more experienced. In the end, this almost broke the game (the last 1/4th or so of the campaign was essentially the PCs steamrolling each encounter unless I powered them up significantly or created them specifically to counteract the strong points of the PCs).
For the next campaign, I was a player and he was a DM, and he ran a far stricter game. Most of the things he was requesting during my campaign would have been shot down immediately in his game.
So, it's possible that your players are trying to figure out where they stand, or perhaps to force you to learn the "hard way". I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, or even likely, but it could be a possibility.
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If that's the case, simply saying "no" to some of these boundary-pushes (such as a request for a custom item like the gloves and the shirt) might make everyone happier.
I agree, the at-will true strike and permanent shield items were mistakes. Nothing you can do now, except realize that your NPCs should also have such awesome items.
They would be surprised when you announce Armag hits AC 60+.
Lex
I really, really recommend you play "by the book" until you have really mastered the system. Every rule exists for a reason. There's a reason characters have the number of feats and ability points they do. Changing things like...
Thank you Lex. That probably is part of the problem... I wanted the game to be special so I didn't give out gold at times and gave alternative rewards, such as the +1 ability bonus, and a few + to saves as well as an extra few minor (situational) feats like the regional feats.
I apologize for my mentioning 32 point buy- based on reviewing my statblocks- it appears to have been 25- back in 3.5 we used 32 point buy... I'm still getting used to pathfinder's changes.
Wraithstrike
After KM I suggest you go back to playing*. When you make a new character come back to the boards with a build. Tell us what you want to do, and most of us will recommend changes, and explain why we have those ideas.
Thank you Wraithstrike.
Diego
- round 2: move another 20' to the window (move action), start squeezing through the small window (full round action initiated this round with a standard action, it end the next round with another standard action).
* Note that the fighter squeezing through the window would have been a wonderful target for the lighting bolt. I would have applied a large malus to his reflex save, but that us bordering houerule territory
So he couldn't squeeze and take a non-full round attack? It seems that you could squeeze and do an attack if you had enough move left?
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Courtney
("I'm going with this ruling for now, since we can't find a clarification in the RAW, and we can talk after game if you feel like that wasn't fair. Please remind me. No, please don't look online right now, it's your turn.") in various circumstances. My players have gone on ego trips as they destroy every monster in sight, and have become angry, indignant wrecks over monster/terrain combinations that have been more effective than they thought was appropriate.
That sounds familiar.
The notebook with common rules idea is a good one. I will do it.
Re the Oculus:
the Oculus of Abbadon only works for Neutral Evil characters, so either it wouldn't work for the Neutral PC, despite residing in his eye socket, or the PC really is Neutral Evil.
He hasn't been using its bonuses. He just wanted to have an evil eye... Although as stated above, the group is fairly certain that he should be evil and my opinion is that he is Neutral Evil, so I'll probably let him know about its Calling ability... after double checking with him if he REALLY wants to become a BBEG and to have his character die through intraparty violence.
Are-
So, it's possible that your players are trying to figure out where they stand, or perhaps to force you to learn the "hard way".
That sounds a little familiar. They are fair, but they do try to push from time to time.
Old Drake
Thank you very much for the in-depth reviews
The player must have gotten really lucky that you rolled red dragonhide full plate on the random magical item table..
Oh, I don't use random item tables. I believe he crafted that. I have limited the crafting by denying them access to materials until they unlock them in-story. There was a great deal of player-directed annoyance when I told them "No Mithril and no Adamantine." Eventually, a side quest unlocked the Mithril.
Re: Ranger
I will ask the Ranger about the perception score.
The saves may be up +1 in at least one category because of a reward I gave out at the Temple of the Elk. The Fort and Will are up +1 because of a reward given out for Kingdom building- when they hit a +50 stability check, I gave out the Fort and Will bonus to all players.
Local beacon was a bonus feat for RPing: +4 Know (Local).
gloves with True Strike at will - how do you run this? What action is required to trigger the True Strike? I believe the norm is a standard action - meaning no attack that round - though I could be wrong here. At will would certainly make it expensive as well..
I seem to recall that he did have to sit out a round of attack to activate it.
shirt with continuous Shield - where's this from? I'm fairly certain that it's not possible per RAW. And it would be very expensive if you do allow it. Either way, the character wears an armor on the body slot, so the shirt doesn't work any longer. Reduce his armor by 4.
belt with +2 Dex, +1 Con - while not okay by RAW, I can accept this; price should be 5,500.
I seem to recall how he ended up with the belt. He posited that if priced appropriately, there should be no problem with giving +1s instead of always following +2s. I said that I agreed with him but that no item in the rules allows it. I argued that a +1 could allow for some twinking- e.g. setting con at 15 with a level up and just getting a +1, but he argued that if priced right, that's fine. I couldn't see any good objection to his point, so It seemed I should allow it.
Regarding the Shirt? Are you sure he can't have it? You can wear a cloak + armor, I recall, regarding the slots. So the shirt is like a cloak, right?
Witch-
but frankly defense and Int boosting are the key concerns for a witch, so this seems odd. Certainly compared to the amount of stuff the ranger had.
You're right about that, the Witch had about 30,000 gold unspent. The ranger said he'd help the witch choose items to buy. Currently we are negotiating about items. The witch wanted an item, but the witch wanted to modify the item... and have it cost the same price. The witch is currently disappointed in me that I won't let the witch have the item at the price the witch wants it. I didn't set a price but I said that somewhere in 10,000 to 17,000 (the cost for broom of flying) seemed appropriate and that I'd have to think what price would be best. The desire was to make the Ebon Fly Figurine activate [once per day for 4 hours each time (a total of 28 hours per week)] for the same price- 10,000 gp. The witch said that if the hours/day went down proportionally, the item should cost the same. I argued that activation daily is worth a lot more than activation for 3x/week even if the total # of hours is the same, but I couldn't point to any rule or the wondrous item creation table to justify that statement. The witch will probably be upset if I charge any more than 10,000 gp, but the witch noted that I could reduce the hours/day for activation and that would be fine. The witch also thinks that I am a fool in my logical reasoning, so I think it is important that any ruling I make be justified. I was thinking of using phantom steed as a base spell and creating this: [(3*9)1800]/ (5/1) = 9720 gp. Other than the cost, the difference seems to be that the AC of the steed is 18 vs. 14 with the fly, and the HP is only 17 vs. 38 with the fly.
Wizard
Okay, first thing that jumps out is that the character was created with vastly lower point buy.
Thank you! I think I'll go over that with him.
As mentioned before the Occulus only works if he's officially neutral evil. And I'm not certain what kind of penalty I'd assign on the kingdom for the presence of undead, but I'd certainly impose something.... maybe a paladin or cleric leads a group to cleanse the realm of undead? Or a popular uprising against their presence.
The other players actually threatened to kill him if he started keeping undead... he keeps them in a portable hole, since they don't need air.
He has one more spell at each level due to a special bonus story item.
Also check the number of HD of undead he can control. 28 HD for a 8th level wizard seems a bit much.
I will bring that up with him!
His items:
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9000 gp)
Necklace of Adaptation (9000 gp)
Ring of Protection from Chaos (4000 gp)
Boots of Levitation
Portable Hole
+2 Brigandine/Kiko Armor
2 Neutralize Poison
2 Cure Mod Wounds Potions
2 Lesser Restoration
Wand of Dimension Door (1 charge)
Oculus of Abbadon
Eye of Infravision: Darkvision 120 feet, Detect living (warm blooded) 60 feet.
Re: Oracle lacking gold.
Ah. The oracle hasn't spent 24,000 gp...so you're right.
Re: the Fighter
Could you please explain what you did in a bit more depth? It went a little over my head. In the following spoiler, I list a few of his class feats-that might help with interpretation.
Full Fighter stats follow, he actually commented that he thought he might have miscalculated and only done 24 point buy or forgotten to give himself his level 8 levelup ability score.
" Assume +2 to STR for Human, and +1 Str +1 Con from levels."
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 10
He also had a few more items, but he doesn't use them often:
Cold Iron Longsword +1 +13/+8 1d8+5 19-20/x3
Composite Longbow (+4 Strength) +10/+5 1d8+4 x3 110ft
And I think he said he had Fly cast on his Armor, but I didn't see that on his sheet or exactly how that worked, but I think it works like Shield cast on the Ranger's shirt--still, that's how he flew.
Ride Skill +22
Handle Animal +17
Steadfast Mount +2 Class Mount gains +AC/Saves. +1 per 2/6/10/14/18 levels
Armored Charger Class No ACP to Ride checks. Mount ignored Medium armor.
Mounted Mettle +1 Class +1 Attack/Damage when mounted. +1 per 5/9/13/17
Leap from the Saddle Class Mount makes single move, fast dismount (DC 20). Make full-attack.
And now the Druid, to round out all the character sheets
Half-Elf
StR 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 22
Cha 10
BAB 6/1
AC 26 (armor 7, shield 3, dex 3, nat armor 1, defense 2
Touch 16, flat foot 23
Fort 10
Ref 7
Will 14
Init 3
CMB 8
+1 Glaive (9/4) 1d10+4 x3
+1 short spear (9/4) 1d6+3
CMD 21
HP 80
Feats:
Quick Draw
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Natural Spell
Augmen Summoning
Total Defense 1x day +4 AC
Toughness
Lunge +5 reach, -2 AC
Spontaneous Casting
etc. class feats.
Animal Companion
Dire animal
STR 18 DEX 13 CON 14 WIS 12 CHA 11
FORT 8 REF 7 WILL 3
AC 21
(11/6) d6*(1d4+6) damage
Bite (10/5) 1d3+4
Spells: (3) Heat Stroke, Sheet Lightning, Heatstroke, MAd Monkeys
(4) dispel Magic, River of Wind, Falme strike
(5) Firesnake, Tree Stride
12000 gp unspent
+1 spellstoring glaive
+1 short spear
+1 darkwood shield
+1 darkwood breatpltate
+1 amulet natural armor
+2 wisdom headband
5 Potions of green Liquor
1 vial Kobold Ecstacy
24 charge wand cur light wounds
Belt Str/Dex +2
+2 Ring of Protection
2 potion cat grace
1 potion fox cunning
1 potion spider climb
1 potion heroism
1 potion rage
1 potion remove fear
5x goodberries
elixir of love
feather tree token
+2 cloak resistance
reincarnation oils
potion of nightwalk (teleportation)
Can change into an air elemental, etc.
--
I really appreciate the comments about potentially too high wealth- the players complained that I was below effective character/wealth level and we did the math back when they were level 6 and we thought I was below. I may have slightly over-corrected. And the players are currently complaining that I'm not giving out enough loot- we've gone 3 or 4 sessions with a total of maybe 3000 gp being doled out per character. Varnhold Vanishing was a huge payday but after that, not much wealth flowed in.
--
And thank you very much for the in-depth character evaulations. Emails are being sent off.
Update to let all of you know how your advice IS helping: preliminary discussion with players about the REAL party Effective Character level was fruitful. At least two players now agree that with the NPCs and/or animals, that adds +.5 to +1 character level and that the higher point buy adds +1 character level, and that 6 players add +1 level, so for CR 9 Players, a CR 12 isn't out of line. A CR 14 is pushing it, but CR 10 to 13 is what should be aimed for I figure- if the whole party is there, and CR 8 to 12 when they are just 4.
Your advice has thus far been fruitful!
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Lex
I really, really recommend you play "by the book" until you have really mastered the system. Every rule exists for a reason. There's a reason characters have the number of feats and ability points they do. Changing things like...Thank you Lex. That probably is part of the problem... I wanted the game to be special so I didn't give out gold at times and gave alternative rewards, such as the +1 ability bonus, and a few + to saves as well as an extra few minor (situational) feats like the regional feats.
I apologize for my mentioning 32 point buy- based on reviewing my statblocks- it appears to have been 25- back in 3.5 we used 32 point buy... I'm still getting used to pathfinder's changes.
Wraithstrike
After KM I suggest you go back to playing*. When you make a new character come back to the boards with a build. Tell us what you want to do, and most of us will recommend changes, and explain why we have those ideas.Thank you Wraithstrike.
Diego
So he couldn't squeeze and take a non-full round attack? It seems that you could squeeze and do an attack if you had enough move left? ** spoiler omitted **...- round 2: move another 20' to the window (move action), start squeezing through the small window (full round action initiated this round with a standard action, it end the next round with another standard action).
* Note that the fighter squeezing through the window would have been a wonderful target for the lighting bolt. I would have applied a large malus to his reflex save, but that us bordering houerule territory
Glass, you've got to admit we some awesome peeps on these boards. They're almost always willing to help with advice or share their experiences.
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So he couldn't squeeze and take a non-full round attack?
It all depend on what is your definition of a "near murderhole".
To squeeze through a window it need to be large 2 and 1/2 feet. 75 cm.
If you define something a near murderhole I would thing it is wide something like 1 foot, 1 foot and a half (30-45 cm)). You can pass through that with a escape artist check.
It seems that you could squeeze and do an attack if you had enough move left?
You can use a standard action to move, but you can't use a move action to attack.
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The True strike gauntlet is a personal spell that you have made available to a class that normally don't have it. sure, it it is at will and require a standard action to use he will be capable to sue it "only" once every other round, but it is a +20 to hit that negate concealment. practically it make high AC meaningless, especially in the hands of a missile user that can: round 1 fire, move into total cover (becoming substantially invulnerable), round 2 activate the item and leave cover so he can fire the next round (and that is a very basic and unimaginative use of the item).
If you search the forum you will find whole threads about how you should price a true strike item. for sure it will not cost 1.800 gp for an at will item casting a first level spell.
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The constant shield shirt. it is one of those nono items, but even assuming you are willing to give it out:
I have no doubt that he as convinced you that the price is found with this formula:
Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp
plus
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
for a total of 4.000 gp
but the right formula is:
AC bonus (other) Bonus squared x 2,500 gp
for base price of 40.000 gp
plus
for the protection from magic missiles it should cost at least like a brooch of shielding, 1.500 gp (probably double that as it is unlimited plus the *1.5 because it is mated to another item and don't take up item slots).
That mean it is a 42.000-45.000 gp item.
The formula for the AC increase is pre-eminent on the formula for constant spells.
That item alone put him above suggested Wealth by Level for a 8th level character. I am hardly a strict follower of the WBL guidelines, but that guy as the equipment of a character well above his level.
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Ring of Protection from Chaos (4000 gp). theoretically right if you look the constant spell formula, but:
again a AC increase by 2 points, it is a deflection bonus, so 2 squared *2.000, so 8.000 gp
a +2 saves resistance bonus, so 2 squared *1.000 = 4.000
protection from mental control by chaotic creatures (there is a combo of items that do that [against evil] for 5.000 gp if I recall the price right)
keep at bay chaotic summoned creatures, no similar item, 2.000 gp or so could be reasonable.
Halve the AC and resistance costs because they are conditional, final price:
8.000/2+4.000/2+5.000+2.000 = 13.000 gp
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Potion of nightwalk (teleportation)
Potions are limited to 3rd level spells
A strong, strong suggestion: no custom made items until you are very fluent on the rules and the balance of the game.
I know I am nitpicking stuff and I feel a bit bad about that, but you players are taking advantage of you or they know way less of the game that they claim to know.
Either way you have a big problem in your hands. They are way more powerful that was intended for their level and they feel entitled to that to the point that they protest when they get hurt.
They want to play a videogame in immortal mode and then cry that it lack excitement.
Unless you do a total wipe out of the current stats and equipment, re-making the characters in line with standard rules (practically only keeping the backstory) there is little you can do in that campaign.
The other option is to start a new one, limit yourself to the Core ruelbook till you are confident in your knowledge of the rules and then expand on that.
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The important thing on custom magic item pricing: the formulas given are SUGGESTIONS, not mandates. They're guidelines. You should always try to compare items with ones of similar power and price accordingly. Never, ever, feel bound by those rules if you think the result would be unbalancing.. Or even if you suspect it might .
Or else keep a disenchanter handy to remove excess items or excessively powered ones.
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Found another one thanks to Old Drake comment:
"Heavy Mithral Shield +2 +6 Shield "
A heavy shield give a a AC adjustment of +2, so a +2 heavy shield will give a total of +4.
To get a total of +6 the fighter need a tower shield, but a tower shield has a drawback:
"When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance."
There are several programs that will generate character sheets and that will check this kind of little discrepancies. Ask in general forum for suggestions for the best program for your needs.
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There are several programs that will generate character sheets and that will check this kind of little discrepancies. Ask in general forum for suggestions for the best program for your needs.
Herolab is your friend...and it can be particularly useful for you as a new GM since it validates your PCs builds and makes life a hell of a lot easier when doing things like adding a few fighter levels to a monster. More importantly it can help ensure you create any GM NPCs correctly even if you don't know all the rules.
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Glad the advice is working, and that you seem to have helpful players!
The constant shield shirt. it is one of those nono items, but even assuming you are willing to give it out:
I have no doubt that he as convinced you that the price is found with this formula:
Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp
plus
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
for a total of 4.000 gpbut the right formula is:
AC bonus (other) Bonus squared x 2,500 gp
for base price of 40.000 gp
plus
for the protection from magic missiles it should cost at least like a brooch of shielding, 1.500 gp (probably double that as it is unlimited plus the *1.5 because it is mated to another item and don't take up item slots).
That mean it is a 42.000-45.000 gp item.The formula for the AC increase is pre-eminent on the formula for constant spells.
I would probably still add 1.5x or 2x the price of the item, if only because it is in an unusual slot, it stacks with other armor bonuses (meaning the character doesn't need a shield for a shield bonus). For comparison, the animated shield quality lasts only 4 rounds and is a +2 equivalent (meaning it's a +6 item for 72k). 80-90k would be my comfort zone on the item, but again it's a matter of DM style.
The biggest point is don't try to take the item from the player.
Ask if they are willing to change the item. Maybe reduce the AC bonus to +2 and/or get rid of the magic missile immunity and reprice accordingly.
Regardless, factor the price (old or new, as needed) into your future treasure allocations. They are already at or over the gp guidelines, so things need some rebalancing, which may be difficult to do considering most of the planned fights are against NPCs and not monsters, but consider changing some NPC items into single-use things like scrolls.
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The shield spell gives IIRC a +4 AC bonus. That's the same as a heavy +2 animated shield, or a +4 shield, worth 16k. Even a +6 would be only 36k; it's only weapons that the cost is doubled for.
By your logic, a +4 chain shirt should cost the same as mwk full plate, but it doesn't.
Magic AC bonus does not equate to the base shield bonus. And because the original spell has a duration in minutes, the price is doubled.
>>If you search the forum you will find whole threads about how you should price a true strike item. for sure it will not cost 1.800 gp for an at will item casting a first level spell.
Ok. I will look.
Found: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2j03?Item-creation-cost#17
That indicates it should be 2000 gp?
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Are you really sure about the Heavy Shield v. Tower Shield things; he said he can get a +4 bonus with a +2 heavy shield--it is not a tower shield. He referenced his shield feats.
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Hm. I HAD thought that the Fly was on the chest slot item; it appears that the player put it as an additional enchantment on his Dragonhide armor. He indicated that he thought that it shouldn't count towards the maximum +7 bonus either on the armor since the rules are unclear on that point... I said No to allowing it to do that. At some point we will probably revisit that when he reaches a +5 or higher bonus on the armor. I intend to still say no. I am also unclear why he can have a spell on his magic sword. He indicated that is within the rules?
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Good and bad news on one front :D. Re-calculating the fort, et. al. saves, I actually discovered that a few players hadn't received some of the bonus feats that were given out to add +1 to Fort. So, now the players are more even (some had the bonus and others didn't). What would you suggest pricing the bonus for fortitude at? (That is, what is its wealth by level equivalent)? I'd say 2000 to 4000, trending toward the high end there.
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Hm. I'm getting some pushback on the shield item. They estimated its cost at 2,000 since they crafted it...
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In good news, we had a discussion about wealth by level disparity and I think that may solve some issues regarding the difficulty vis-a-vis certain characters and it may end some complaints that I dole out too little gold.
I also think that at least one, maybe 2 of the secondary characters will be retiring (a crafter and a fighter/crafter), leaving just one crafter and the Kingdom Ruler as secondaries.
*Correction, said he could get a +6 with the +2 heavy shield due to his feats (not a +4)
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True strike:
Try this one.
To sum it up I would use the world of Sean K Reynolds, one of the game developers:
Just don't do it.Sean, while I have until now agreed 100% with your posts I am going to have to discent here.
While I agree that anything with True Strike should be handled like an armed nuclear device, a competent GM can add in properly limited items which allow true strike uses that will in no way break their games.
I say do it, but make sure it is extremely limited or requires extremly hard to get and/or expensive special ingredients to make, if you think such an item is good in your game.Then why, in the 11-year history of D&D 3E and Pathfinder, has a reasonable multi-use not-spell-trigger-or-limited-charges true strike item never appeared in an official Wizards or Paizo product?
Because the designers realize that giving combat-oriented characters routine and easy access to a +20 attack bonus is a big, big problem, and pricing an unlimited-use version of that spell pushes well beyond the 200,000 gp maximum value for most wondrous items.
That said, do what you want in your campaign.
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Shield: Old Drake has already pointed out my error (sorry for having shortened you as GD, OD).
As I was saying, my error is a good example why a program that validate your builds is useful. Thtt don't mean that the program will be always right, but when you see a discrepancy between your numbers and the program numbers it is worth checking them.
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Constant Shield spell item:
I am not surprised by the reply, but they are wrong.
1) a item that give a constant Ac is priced first for the AC it give, independently from the original spell.
The formula is:
AC bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,500 gp
so 4 point of AC squared is 16
x2.500 = 40.000
2) then there is the protection from magic missiles part.
A magic item should never be priced at a lower level than an existing magic item unless it is noticeably weaker.
The shirt is noticeably stronger than a Brooch of shielding (unlimited protection against 101 hp).
A brooch cost 1.500 gp, the shirt protection is better so it should cost at least 2.000 gp
As the protection is mated with another power 8the AC increase) it cost no item slots, that doubles the basic cost for 4.000 gp for the protection from magic missiles alone!
3) "They estimated its cost at 2,000 since they crafted it... "
If the character that crafted an item, and only that character use it it is worth his production cost and not purchase price for that character Wealth By Level. There is a ruling about that by SKR. It is one of the benefits for having taken the feat.
But that benefit don't extend to the other characters in the party.
As the Ranger is lacking the appropriate crafting feat (Craft Wondrous Item) he is not the guy that has enchanted the shirt and s it cost his full purchase price for his WBL.
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A further note about crating:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.
and
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
So a level 8 character can't enchant an armor or a weapon with a enhancement bonus higher than +2. He can add other powers above that limit, but he can't get a higher bonus to AC or to hit/damage.
Good for them that the shirt is a wondrous item and so exempt from this rule.
If that's the case, simply saying "no" to some of these boundary-pushes (such as a request for a custom item like the gloves and the shirt) might make everyone happier.
I agree, the at-will true strike and permanent shield items were mistakes. Nothing you can do now, except realize that your NPCs should also have such awesome items.
They would be surprised when you announce Armag hits AC 60+.
i agree these items are immensely overpowered. I disagree on the idea that there is nothing you can do.
Such game breaking items can easily be balanced with curses. Imagine your characters attempting to meddle in magics that only the gods should control and clearly having TS at will is on this level.
Give them a trade off to start balancing the game back out. What if you allowed the item to work but when the character rolled a natural one while wearing the bracers he then crit on himself. Or you could have the weapon wielded do an equal amount of damage to the wearer of the bracers when worn. This would limit the usefulness of the bracer but still allow the characters to keep the item. Call them bracers of desperation or something similar.
Maybe the permanent shield item begins to draw the attention of spirits from the ethereal plane. Perhaps this item was unknowingly crafted from the essence of those spirits and the bearer begins to be affected by a nightmare spell every night. Nightmares like these should involve the ring and he gets restful sleep on the nights following a full day of not wearing the ring.
Make the experiences cool! You are a story teller apparently right? So fix the broken items with story!
Also as an FYI: having a craftbot or healbot second PC requires a feat called leadership.
And PLEASE check the crafting requirements. If I read your post correctly the PCs are keeping a lower level character around to craft. Just know that an enhancement bonus of a weapon or shield can only be crafted as high as the characters current level divided by 3. This means an 8th level caster can only craft +2 items. (Always round down)
Final piece of advice:
After this game take a break from GMing and have the most experienced person in your group take the reins. You shouldn't be patronized for your lack of knowledge unless you refuse to learn and a good GM should NEVER refuse an opportunity to learn. While playing a character just absorb and seek advice here. You have an entire community of people ready to help. I am not the best optimizer but I have seen many people on these boards crunch the heck out of their character and still have the good roleplaying aspect that you seek.
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In regards to the caster level prereqs, that just adds to the creation DC, so it's not against the rules, just harder.
In regards to the item pricing, it's an overestimation to show my reasoning:
1) Item gives a +4 enhancement bonus to shield AC. When pricing magic items the base item cost is not a factor in any multipliers, therefore it doesn't matter if it's a buckler, a heavy shield, or some imaginary shield with a +0 bonus. What matters is squaring the enhancement bonus (+4 chainmail costs 16300gp, +1 full plate costs 2650gp, but the total AC bonus is the same).
2) Item does not take up a hand, which normal shields do (animated for another +2 bonus). Therefore the item is equivalent to a +6 enhancement bonus.
4) Double cost based on spell duration.
5) Add a bit for magic missile immunity (or not if the price is high enough).
But of course, that's the beauty of magic item pricing - the exact mix is up to the DM as long as everybody is happy.
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In regards to the caster level prereqs, that just adds to the creation DC, so it's not against the rules, just harder.
For weapon ad armor that is questionable. no Dev has ever replied to the queries asking if it that special prerequisite can be bypassed.
Even accepting that it can be bypassed, it set a minimum caster level of 3*the item enhancement bonus, so a +1 weapon/armor has ha enchanting DC of 8, 13 if you aren't 3rd level, +2 11/16, +3 14/19, +4 17/22 and +5 20/25. Those DC can be reached by low level characters but they will have to spend skill point and feats to do that.The shirt take up a slot, even if it is not a shield slot, so its primary effect cost (the AC) is not doubled. Same thing for the spell duration and the AC bonus. The AC bonus don't have the hyphenated 2 referencing the original spell duration.
Pricing an AC bonus has its set of rules and pricing.
Note how the (other) AC bonus use a base of 2.500 gp, not 1.000 as an armor enhancement.
The spell duration and the absence of a spcific item slot are used for the protection from magic missiles effect.
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For weapon ad armor that is questionable. no Dev has ever replied to the queries asking if it that special prerequisite can be bypassed.
Even accepting that it can be bypassed, it set a minimum caster level of 3*the item enhancement bonus, so a +1 weapon/armor has ha enchanting DC of 8, 13 if you aren't 3rd level, +2 11/16, +3 14/19, +4 17/22 and +5 20/25. Those DC can be reached by low level characters but they will have to spend skill point and feats to do that.
As far as I'm concerned, it has been addressed. It has been made clear at multiple times that you can bypass ANY prerequisite. And if a character wants to pour on feats/skills to make higher level items, that's their call.
The shirt take up a slot, even if it is not a shield slot, so its primary effect cost (the AC) is not doubled. Same thing for the spell duration and the AC bonus. The AC bonus don't have the hyphenated 2 referencing the original spell duration.
Pricing an AC bonus has its set of rules and pricing.
Note how the (other) AC bonus use a base of 2.500 gp, not 1.000 as an armor enhancement.The spell duration and the absence of a specific item slot are used for the protection from magic missiles effect.
Again, I'm only using the animated shield as a comparitive baseline, not the actual pricing. However, I would be highly suspicious of any price of 36k or lower.
What would you rather have as a ranger: +4 shield bonus with no downside and complete immunity to magic missiles, or +5 ghost touch armor?
Old Drake- Thanks for the pricing information on the fort bonus!
Again, I'm only using the animated shield as a comparitive baseline, not the actual pricing. However, I would be highly suspicious of any price of 36k or lower.
I STRONGLY recommend not using an animated shield as a comparative baseline. The differences are astounding.
An Animated Shield:
-Is not a force effect
-requires proficiency
-has an armor check penalty
-has an arcane spell failure percentage
-only works for four rounds
-can only be activated every four rounds
-does not block any magic missiles.
Don't get discouraged! Sounds like you're getting the rules help you need from the rest of the board, so I shall attempt to raise your spirits.
1) You are a GM. This makes you part of an elite, highly specialized sub-group within in a complex and demanding hobby. You are awesome!
2) Don't worry, be happy! ^_^