Racial Traits and Prerequisites

[setzer9999]

If a racial trait grants you something you would otherwise not qualify for, but doesn't spell out specifically that you may take it even if you would otherwise not qualify, can you still take that racial trait and its bonus?

For example, can a half-elf take the Ancestral Arms racial trait and get Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 even if they are also taking a level of a class that only has 0 BAB at level 1? (Exotic Weapon Proficiency has a prerequisite of +1 BAB)

[Martiln]

setzer9999 wrote:

If a racial trait grants you something you would otherwise not qualify for, but doesn't spell out specifically that you may take it even if you would otherwise not qualify, can you still take that racial trait and its bonus?

For example, can a half-elf take the Ancestral Arms racial trait and get Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 even if they are also taking a level of a class that only has 0 BAB at level 1? (Exotic Weapon Proficiency has a prerequisite of +1 BAB)

In that case, the racial trait GIVES you the feat for free, meaning you don't need to worry about prereqs since you already have the feat. So I guess the answer to your question is yes? It's kinda like asking if a Toothy Half-Orc is proficient with its bite.

[setzer9999]

While I agree that is how it should work and would rule that way in a home game, the RAW is not as clear on it as it would seem.

In other cases where you receive a bonus feat for which you do not qualify, it specifically states that you may take the feat even though you do not otherwise qualify (Ranger combat style feats, for example).

The Crusader Cleric bonus feats also even do say you can take them if you don't qualify based on class feature, but "class feature" doesn't cover BAB, making most of them inaccessible at first level, leaving only a few of the options on the list viable to take at level 1. I can't find it now, but the dev that actually wrote that archetype weighed in on it somewhere around here... and said that indeed that is how he intended it to work... that you can't take Weapon Focus, for example, as level 1 Crusader Cleric at character level 1, because your BAB is not +1!

Yes, I agree that it is stupid for it to work that way, and it seems that of course you should be allowed to take it, and I would rule in my own home game that you can take bonus feats offered by special abilities even if it doesn't say you can bypass requirements. But by RAW, it seems that a Crusader Cleric cannot take many of the bonus feats they are offered at level 1, and a Half-Elf cannot take the Ancestral Arms feat if his level 1 class selection offers 0 BAB. Again, that is just RAW, and another example of why sticking strictly to RAW all the time would make this game suck.

[Alitan]

If you have a feat that has prerequisites, and you lose said prerequisites, you lose the USE of the feat until you regain the prerequisites...

Yeah, I think it would be silly, but RAW implies a half-elf w/Ancestral Arms and BAB +0 would have to wait 'til their BAB advanced to +1 to use the Exotic Weapon Proficiency...

No, I wouldn't run it that way, if I were using traits (which I usually don't). But if you're chasing a strict RAW application, it could work that way.

[setzer9999]

prd wrote:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

The question is, does "selecting a feat" also cover selecting a trait or class feature which grants a bonus feat? I say by RAW it does. So, you cannot "select" Ancestral Arms because you do not qualify for the bonus feat. Again, I'd never rule it that way, but I don't think you can even take the feat at level 1, and then wait for it to become viable at level 2, by RAW. By strict RAW, it appears you can't even take that trait or its bonus feat at all unless you have +1 BAB at level 1.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ancestral Arms is an alternate racial trait, not a race trait.

[setzer9999]

Is that a troll? Can't be a serious statement... but I'll bite... Alternate Racial traits ARE racial traits. If it were a diagram, "Alternate Racial Traits" would be entirely encompassed by the circle for "Racial Traits"... so, how does that have any bearing on the issue at hand in this thread?

[blackbloodtroll]

I said racial traits are not Race traits. There are no prerequisites for racial traits, they just come with the race.

[Justin G.]

Semantics are fun and always lead to a better, more thoughtful discussion.
/sarcasm

[setzer9999]

I'm not even sure where the semantics even comes in... its just plain wrong. The rules call them Racial Traits and Alternate Racial traits... they are not referred to as "Race" Traits in the core book or the APG... in both cases they are "Racial" traits anyway. And yes, even if it does say "race trait" somewhere, it would indeed be completely ridiculous semantics to assert that those were different things.

[course]

Justin G. wrote:

Semantics are fun and always lead to a better, more thoughtful discussion.

/sarcasm

Wow, you guys sure are reactionary. He's not making a semantic aguement or trolling. Paizo made the unfortunate decision to have both "Racial Traits" that are race defining features like Orc Ferocity and Toothy" and "race traits" that are a category of traits like faith traits, magic traits, social traits. It's unfortunate that they decided to use the word "trait" to cover two separate game mechanisms, but they did.

There's examples of this all over the boards. it's caused quite a bit of confusion, but they are definitely two different things.

Edit: stupid autocorrect!

[setzer9999]

I'm sorry if it was a serious post, but it is really hard to tell that since the most up to date edition/errata/reprint... whatever it is shows all "racial" traits under a heading called "Racial Traits" or "Alternate Racial Traits." Perhaps Paizo updated this to expel just this confusion we just had?

In the core rules and the APG rules, "Toothy" for example is under "Half-Orc ... Alternate Racial Traits", not "Half-orc ... Alternate Race Traits". I had no idea there even was any confusion previously so it seemed like it came out of left field to start parsing "race" vs "racial" to me.

[Justin G.]

course wrote:

Justin G. wrote:

Semantics are fun and always lead to a better, more thoughtful discussion.

/sarcasm

Wow, you guys sure are reactionary. He's not making a semantic aguement or trolling. Paizo made the unfortunate decision to have both "Racial Traits" that are race defining features like Orc Ferocity and Toothy" and "race traits" that are a category of traits like faith traits, magic traits, social traits. It's unfortunate that they decided to use the word "trait" to cover two separate game mechanisms, but they did.

There's examples of this all over the boards. it's caused quite a bit of confusion, but they are definitely two different things.
Edit: stupid autocorrect!

I'm only reactionary because he obviously knew what he meant, but felt the need to correct him anyway. It doesn't progress the conversation, it just turns it into a petty terminology war that has no purpose.

Yes. They are two seperate things.
Was a distinction needed? No.
It's just correction for corrections sake and all that does it frustrate people.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

EDIT: Sorry, I see now where things derailed. BBT was correcting Alitan as it looks to me like Alitan was under the impression you were discussing Race Traits, not Racial Traits. (I agree, poor choice of terminology, but we're stuck with it)

Anyway...

AFAIK there has never been anything saying that you have to meet the prerequisite of a Racial trait that you gain for being a race. Many use Ancestral Arms in PFS (who are as RAW as anyone and very strict about it) to gain access to a Martial/Exotic proficiency without being a +1 BAB class. I know that's not a end-all of proof, but its pretty good proof in my eyes.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Racial Traits, and Alternate Racial Traits if taken, are those things your character has just by being a member of that race. Race Traits are a part of the overall list of Traits that a character gets two of, as detailed in the Traits Web Enhancement and in the APG. If you get something from either, you do not have to meet any prerequisites to use it that a character without that trait would have to meet.

[blackbloodtroll]

PFS sounds as official as it gets.

[Shar Tahl]

From my view, I would say if you are granted a free feat regardless of any class selection, you can use it. I see this the same as Monk and Ranger bonus feats, you don't need to qualify. You just get it.

Racial Trait in question:

PRD wrote:

Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.

You have had the training, per the fluff. You can use it. It is basically trading one feat for another. The race does not and should not be punished for switching out a trait and not being a straight martial class.

[Alitan]

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

EDIT: Sorry, I see now where things derailed. BBT was correcting Alitan as it looks to me like Alitan was under the impression you were discussing Race Traits, not Racial Traits. (I agree, poor choice of terminology, but we're stuck with it)

Anyway...

AFAIK there has never been anything saying that you have to meet the prerequisite of a Racial trait that you gain for being a race. Many use Ancestral Arms in PFS (who are as RAW as anyone and very strict about it) to gain access to a Martial/Exotic proficiency without being a +1 BAB class. I know that's not a end-all of proof, but its pretty good proof in my eyes.

I was under the impression we were discussing Traits as per APG, rather than alternate Racial -- call them abilities, since the nomenclature is so... poorly thought out. (Also as per APG? Again, we're dealing with stuff I don't use...)

I was trying to present possible avenues of rulings; I think I did mention I wouldn't run it that way. :)

[blackbloodtroll]

The Ancestral Arms racial trait is no different than a dwarf's slow and steady racial trait. It just is, and there are no "prerequisites" needed to utilize it.